Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Cabral on <06-05-18/0036:34>

Title: [SR5] Revised Matrix and Rigging
Post by: Cabral on <06-05-18/0036:34>
I wanted to take another try at revising the matrix and riggers. There are some changes from 4 to 5 (and some from 3) that I want to roll back or tweak, but others I want to keep. I will outline what I have so far, but I would like advice.

Goals and Vision
I want restore hacking via commlinks and break down the barriers between deckers and riggers. I still want decks to have a purpose. I am thinking that they will be cheaper alternatives high end commlinks for hacking, rigging, and even general personal computing purposes. They would also be used by old schoolers for the look or because they like the mechanical interface. Lastly, they may be used by security forces with specialized hardware (for example, to allow spiders to efficiently manipulate the drones of a site).

Wireless connections are secure enough that they can be reliably used for sensitive connections (such as within your PAN).

I want the security of a network to incorporate the security practices of the individual. Perhaps rolling a computer security practices skill plus firewall to counter hacking attempts.

Deckers primarily establish team networks, jam enemy networks, and counter enemy jamming. Exploits are generally found/creating during a time consuming process and may be utilized during combat, but no more hacking on the fly (except perhaps against exceptionally weak systems or individuals with poor practices ("how did he guess that password for my smartgun was 'password'?").

Wireless Bonuses Revised
Replace wireless bonuses with “networked bonuses.” Network bonuses come in variation defined by the connectivity required for the bonus.
Matrix: the item must connect to the matrix in order to provide the bonus. This is typically a wireless connection, but may be a wired connection. In either case, it may be a direct connection or via another device (such as a commlink).
     Survival Knife
LAN: the item must be networked to provide the bonus. The most common example of LAN is a P-Tac network.
     Imaging Scope (sharing images with teammates requires the device and the teammates to be on the same LAN)
PAN: the item must be incorporated into the user’s PAN ino order to provide the bonus. This may still mean that the device is connected to the PAN via wireless, but the connection will typically be short range (think Bluetooth versus WiFi or cellular).
     Gecko Tape Gloves (if PAN includes datajack or `trode net)
Presence: The mere presence of a typical sprawl’s wireless traffic is sufficient to enable the item’s bonus. This typically applies to wireless bonuses that were related to powering a function of the item. At the GM’s discretion, an area with fewer/weaker signals may diminish rather than eliminate the effect and area with a large amount of traffic (such as a spam zone) may enhance it.
     Stun Baton (for recharging)

Cyberware has a neural interface per the core rulebook (p. 451). Most cyberware wireless bonuses no longer require wireless. Internal router is useless, but may change it to allow cyberware macros. Perhaps .1 or .2 essence, and a 1-6 rating. Stores 1 macro per rating and can activate or deactivate that many devices per rating (action cost is the worst of all macroed actions).

No clothes offer a wireless bonus of an increased social limit.
May introduce social networking device/program that provides a social limit bonus with matrix connectivity. Pants that try to add you to Facebook or LinkedIn are creepy. A comm app could be an expected industry tool in some, but not all, circles.

I would like to add my revised wireless bonus, but it is a long list and the board doesn't support spoiler tags.

Technomancers, AI, and the Deep Resonance
The Deep Resonance is an elevated Virtual Machine management software that is woven throughout the Matrix, but rather than become an AI, it has become the Jungian universal subconscious of AIs and Technomancers. In addition to perform its expected function of managing the VMs of the Matrix (Matrix Nodes), it spawns VM fragments that form the basis of AI and Technomancer abilities as well as the resonance realms and resonance wells.

Technomancer
Technomancers are dialed back, at least in part, to Otaku. They don't lose resonance from essence loss and require a datajack to connect to the matrix. The purpose is to move the flavor away from Technomancers are magic hackers and more towards biological instinctive hackers. Technomancer abilities are only usable online and cannot, for example, force someone online (I think that was a 4e submersion ability).

They can use their abilities when connected to a network, within the context of the network.

Technocritters
I would like to keep technocritters, but I am not sure how to reconcile them with the technomancer changes. Perhaps some critters show technical affinity and when implanted with a datajack have technomantic abilities.
Title: Re: [SR5] Revised Matrix and Rigging
Post by: Beta-Max on <06-05-18/1637:29>
This requires a much longer response than i have time for at the moment. I'll be back on this one...I think you have good intentions but are going a bit sideways on your executions.
Title: Re: [SR5] Revised Matrix and Rigging
Post by: Xenon on <06-06-18/0104:23>
I get a feeling that the reason why you are trying to change the rules you are trying to change is because you don't understand (or maybe just don't share) the vision authors seem to have of matrix 2.0

Wireless Bonuses
Almost none of them make sense until you embrace the idea that wireless communication in SR5 is faster (and/or have bigger bandwidth or whatever) compared to wired communication. That you get a slower connection if you communicate via a wire compared to wireless. That most wireless bonuses are actually speed bonuses. Take smartlink for example. To get that extra fast connection needed for a positive dice pool modifier you need want to access your wireless smartgun features by a wireless connection working in concert with DNI. Connecting your smartgun via a wire (or wireless in a high noise situation or via neural interface in case of a cybergun) still give you various bonuses, but this connection is simply too slow for that extra edge you might be looking for.

Networking
The more real life knowledge you have about how networks, servers, routers, TPC/IP etc work in 2018 the less sense SR5 networking rules seem to make until you embrace the idea that Matrix 2.0 is is basically based upon blue tooth. The only major difference between 2018 blue tooth and SR5 matrix 2.0 is the range. Rather than 10m range you have unlimited range. But beyond that... basically blue tooth everywhere. Establishing a slave-master connection between a device and your commlink in SR5 is not much different than pairing a jambox and your iPhone with blue tooth. In blue tooth there are no "routers" or "servers". To access a device you just connect to it. Directly. To hack a blue tooth device you just need to be within range (which, in SR5 is unlimited - remember). You don't have to hack into a local area network or get a foothold in a wireless access point before you can hack the device. To hack the jambox you just hack it directly. It doesn't matter that it is already paired with the owners iPhone. You don't first have to hack his iPhone to get access to the jambox. If you have a NAS then it is probably connected to your intranet and to access it you first need to access the router so you are on the same local area network. In SR5 your NAS would be a blue tooth device that you can pair with directly. And since the range increased from 10m to unlimited you can also access it from anywhere in the world. Without fist hacking a server or router.

Once you accept the above two concepts almost everything about matrix 2.0 simply falls into place.
Title: Re: [SR5] Revised Matrix and Rigging
Post by: Cabral on <06-06-18/0205:29>
I get a feeling that the reason why you are trying to change the rules you are trying to change is because you don't understand (or maybe just don't share) the vision authors seem to have of matrix 2.0
It is my understanding that the prerelease version of wireless bonuses did not reflect the final product and made more sense. It may have been content created by disgruntled talent that left during prior to publication. Rather than correct the mistake, Catalyst has pushed further down the path of baseless wireless bonuses.

The return of decks was silly given that size of devices have no correlation to processing power or storage.

Similarly, the rigger and decker divide is an artificial division that doesn't make sense. The ability to splash into multiple roles is a good thing, not a problem that needed to be fixed.

The matrix that I described above is more of a vision that I want to model in 5e.

Wireless Bonuses
Almost none of them make sense until you embrace the idea that wireless communication in SR5 is faster (and/or have bigger bandwidth or whatever) compared to wired communication. That you get a slower connection if you communicate via a wire compared to wireless. That most wireless bonuses are actually speed bonuses. Take smartlink for example. To get that extra fast connection needed for a positive dice pool modifier you need want to access your wireless smartgun features by a wireless connection working in concert with DNI. Connecting your smartgun via a wire (or wireless in a high noise situation or via neural interface in case of a cybergun) still give you various bonuses, but this connection is simply too slow for that extra edge you might be looking for.
Explain how having your stun baton hackable and brickable allows it to charge faster.
How does being wifi accessible and a network vulnerability light up your starlight dress?
How does having wifi on your creeper pants allow you to socialize better?
Explain how you use a laser sight with wifi that doesn't require an image link?
Explain how having wifi on your survival knife gives you your GPS location, but you can still get it if you turn off wifi and plug into it if you have an internal router.
Explain how wireless is faster than wired can ever be, but an internal router can allow for a completely wired system to achieve the same bonuses.

In a setting where processing storage and bandwidth have no defined units because they are effectively infinite, and where between editions, technological processing power took a mysterious step backwards (decking was not constrained by device size 4e to only decks are capable; to a degree, commlinks can still hack if you plug in a flash drive, but you can't plug in two because Renraku forgot how to make USB hubs).

The only distinction of bandwidth, if there is any, would be in having a wired connection to your brain (DNI link), but even then the `trode net may still allow hot sim.

No, your argument of bandwidth and speed bonuses doesn't make sense.

Networking
The more real life knowledge you have about how networks, servers, routers, TPC/IP etc work in 2018 the less sense SR5 networking rules seem to make until you embrace the idea that Matrix 2.0 is is basically based upon blue tooth. The only major difference between 2018 blue tooth and SR5 matrix 2.0 is the range. Rather than 10m range you have unlimited range. But beyond that... basically blue tooth everywhere. Establishing a slave-master connection between a device and your commlink in SR5 is not much different than pairing a jambox and your iPhone with blue tooth. In blue tooth there are no "routers" or "servers". To access a device you just connect to it. Directly. To hack a blue tooth device you just need to be within range (which, in SR5 is unlimited - remember). You don't have to hack into a local area network or get a foothold in a wireless access point before you can hack the device. To hack the jambox you just hack it directly. It doesn't matter that it is already paired with the owners iPhone. You don't first have to hack his iPhone to get access to the jambox. If you have a NAS then it is probably connected to your intranet and to access it you first need to access the router so you are on the same local area network. In SR5 your NAS would be a blue tooth device that you can pair with directly. And since the range increased from 10m to unlimited you can also access it from anywhere in the world. Without fist hacking a server or router.

Once you accept the above two concepts almost everything about matrix 2.0 simply falls into place.
Everything falls into place once you accept that security is impossible in the matrix 2.0 because the matrix companies cleverly threw out all encryption standards and VPNs. Bluetooth security is only viable with restricted range. If you increase the range and do not increase the security, Bluetooth ceases to be viable.

That said, I am not looking to entirely overhaul the matrix itself. I am looking to inject some network design into defending against hacking, but I would like to keep it light.

My primary focuses are wireless bonuses and technomancers. After that, I am going to bring down decker gear costs and see what I can do to bridge the barriers between decking and rigging; this is supposed to be a classless system. If network savy doesn't make into the house rules, I won't lose sleep.

So, do you have any suggestions for meeting my stated goals?
Title: Re: [SR5] Revised Matrix and Rigging
Post by: Xenon on <06-06-18/0451:31>
The return of decks was silly...
Silly or not - I personally love the concept of having the deck back.

It is iconic for the genre that William Gibson created with the Sprawl-trilogy (Neuromancer, Count Zero and Mona Lisa) back in the 80s.


Similarly, the rigger and decker divide is an artificial division that doesn't make sense.
Riggers are crazy good drivers while deckers are cyber-hackers.



Explain how...
When I said "almost" none I was talking about the majority of all the wireless bonuses which actually do speed things up (a good example is that many Change Device Mode Simple Actions can take advantage of the Change Linked Device Mode Free Action if you enable them - including the laser sight you mentioned).

Beyond that there are some wireless bonuses that are actually really easy to explain (but have nothing to do with speed).

For example;

You normally recharge a stun baton by plugging it in (it just take 10 seconds per charge). The wireless bonus is there so you also have gain the ability to recharge it wireless (via induction). But recharging via induction is much slower (it take 1 charge per hour).

A lot of devices are also not practical to make with universal access ports or physical buttons. It is simply much more convenient to access them via an ARO (this of course require wireless access).

As for Internal Router; The biggest reason why internal Router was added later and why it work the way it works was to please people that didn't understand the concept (like you) ;)


Explain how wireless is faster than wired can ever be...
Because SR5 take place in the future...


No, your argument of bandwidth and speed bonuses doesn't make sense.
I don't think you should try to claim to know how technology will work the future ;)

Having said that, I stand by my statement that almost none of the wireless bonuses make sense until you embrace the idea that wireless communication in SR5 is faster. Once you do that almost all of them start to make sense. You might not like them. But at least you can find an explanation to why they work the way they work.

It is just free advice. Use it. Or don't use it.


Bluetooth security is only viable with restricted range. If you increase the range and do not increase the security, Bluetooth ceases to be viable.
Still.... Once you take a closer look at how matrix actions, devices, slaving and hacking etc all work together while at the same time think "Blue Tooth" - everything about matrix 2.0 starts to make sense.

Again. It is just free advice. Use it. Or don't use it.

Also, hacking in previous editions were so heavy that you could basically send the other players out for pizza while the decker traversed node after node just to switch of a single security camera.

In this edition you just take a single test to place your mark on the camera (directly from augmented reality while walking together with your team) and then you take one single test each combat turn to edit the live camera feed as you and your team walk pass it.

I personally think rules are still a bit over-complicated (at least until you learn them), but they are a lot more streamlined and integrated with how you execute and play out normal meat space actions.

Bring back nodes and routers and local networks and whatnot might make things more secure but mostly it will just make things even more complicated. No thank you.


My primary focuses are wireless bonuses and technomancers.
As I said, almost none of the wireless bonuses make sense until you embrace the idea that wireless communication in SR5 is faster. Once you do that most of them actually fall into place.

As for Technomancers. They will be fleshed out in the upcoming Kill Code. I think they will expand on them being magicians within the matrix rather than making them biological deckers, but I guess we both have to wait and see about that.

After that, I am going to bring down decker gear costs...
You can make a perfectly viable AR decker hybrid (hybrid-anything really... be it face, street samurai, rigger...) by just packing a n Erika Elite or Little Hornet.

To provide matrix overwatch (disabling cameras, opening mag locks, controlling elevators etc.) you are often only opposed by 4 pr 6 dice anyway.

My AR decker is a cybered up physical adept gunslinger that is also really skilled at driving and also have a few drones (everyone should have a few drones).

Dedicated deckers with expansive higher rating decks are of course better suited for pure pay-data runs, but your AR decker hybrid can even manage to do that (by abusing a direct connection to get access to the host and by pushing the limit with edge once you locate the protected file you are after).
Title: Re: [SR5] Revised Matrix and Rigging
Post by: Cabral on <06-06-18/1332:48>
The return of decks was silly...
Silly or not - I personally love the concept of having the deck back.

It is iconic for the genre that William Gibson created with the Sprawl-trilogy (Neuromancer, Count Zero and Mona Lisa) back in the 80s.
There is nothing iconic about technology taking a sudden step backwards (from 4 to 5). This is not technology took a different path in real life so made a change in the setting. In a setting where you can store infinite amounts of data on your navel piercing and a commlink has all the basic processing power, but somehow decking requires a keyboard-sized device is silly. Now we have dongles in data trails, so decking can be accomplished with a commlink and two flash drives, but teams are infiltrating facilities with devices that say "Me! I'm the decker shoot me after the mage."
Similarly, the rigger and decker divide is an artificial division that doesn't make sense.
Riggers are crazy good drivers while deckers are cyber-hackers.
Riggers are not wheel men. They remote pilot drones and vehicles. Even if they are plugged into the vehicle, they are not driving hands-on. In many cases, they are piloting devices over the same matrix that deckers use and possibly accessing the same devices (such as a security decker and spider both accessing CCTVs). It would be prudent for riggers to be capable deckers, at least defensively.
Explain how...
When I said "almost" none I was talking about the majority of all the wireless bonuses which actually do speed things up (a good example is that many Change Device Mode Simple Actions can take advantage of the Change Linked Device Mode Free Action if you enable them - including the laser sight you mentioned).
Going off my list that I am still trying to figure out the best way to share, there 134 items with wireless bonuses and of them, 16 have the simple action to free action benefit you mentioned. I know that there are a few cyberware pieces that have it and removed the wireless bonus because cyberware includes a DNI LINK. Being generous, let's double it to 32 or 23%, far from a majority.

Here's my entry for the laser sight:
Laser Sight: PAN - Free action to activate if included in PAN with DNI link (PAN includes datajack). +1 dice pool bonus does not require networking.
Beyond that there are some wireless bonuses that are actually really easy to explain (but have nothing to do with speed).

For example;

You normally recharge a stun baton by plugging it in (it just take 10 seconds per charge). The wireless bonus is there so you also have gain the ability to recharge it wireless (via induction). But recharging via induction is much slower (it take 1 charge per hour).
Explain how that leaves it vulnerable to bricking?
A lot of devices are also not practical to make with universal access ports or physical buttons. It is simply much more convenient to access them via an ARO (this of course require wireless access).
Contacts: PAN - Contacts must still be wireless, but it is important to note that they network with a PAN, not directly to Matrix
As for Internal Router; The biggest reason why internal Router was added later and why it work the way it works was to please people that didn't understand the concept (like you) ;)
Tone it down. You jumped on the bandwagon. Fancy. Do not make assumptions about my understanding of the system or technology again.
Explain how wireless is faster than wired can ever be...
Because SR5 take place in the future...
The wireless is not magic. Please do not quote out of context.

Explain how wireless is faster if you can turn off and plug in an internal router and get the same bonuses even if the bonuses don't make sense to receive offline.
No, your argument of bandwidth and speed bonuses doesn't make sense.
I don't think you should try to claim to know how technology will work the future ;)
I don't think that you should use that excuse after claiming that the problem was that I don't understand technology. Pick one.
Having said that, I stand by my statement that almost none of the wireless bonuses make sense until you embrace the idea that wireless communication in SR5 is faster. Once you do that almost all of them start to make sense. You might not like them. But at least you can find an explanation to why they work the way they work.

It is just free advice. Use it. Or don't use it.
With room temperature+ superconductors available in Shadowrun, wireless will never be faster and I have never heard anyone other than you claim otherwise. Wireless is more convenient and some devices can only use wireless.

Some wireless bonuses I am removing or folding into the normal operation of the gear or another piece of gear. Many, I am just adding granularity in the levels of access with the caveat that certain scenarios can be equally met by wired and wireless.
Bluetooth security is only viable with restricted range. If you increase the range and do not increase the security, Bluetooth ceases to be viable.
Still.... Once you take a closer look at how matrix actions, devices, slaving and hacking etc all work together while at the same time think "Blue Tooth" - everything about matrix 2.0 starts to make sense.

Again. It is just free advice. Use it. Or don't use it.
The matrix is magic is not the matrix making sense and you have not given any advice on implementing any of my goals, only told me that I don't understand the vision, the matrix, and technology.
Also, hacking in previous editions were so heavy that you could basically send the other players out for pizza while the decker traversed node after node just to switch of a single security camera.
Which I want to avoid. I want "my character knows architecture" to be taken into account in an abstract way. Nodes, if mentioned will likely be story elements only.
My primary focuses are wireless bonuses and technomancers.
As I said, almost none of the wireless bonuses make sense until you embrace the idea that wireless communication in SR5 is faster. Once you do that most of them actually fall into place.

As for Technomancers. They will be fleshed out in the upcoming Kill Code. I think they will expand on them being magicians within the matrix rather than making them biological deckers, but I guess we both have to wait and see about that.
This is a thread to suss out house rules. You are welcome to contribute house rules suggestions that align with the stated goals and vision.

I welcome constructive discussion on my goals and vision, but repeated insistence that changing the rules is wrong is not welcome. It appears that there may be a misunderstanding and maybe the examples I gave help clarify the direction I am going and I hope you will choose to contribute.
Title: Re: [SR5] Revised Matrix and Rigging
Post by: Xenon on <06-06-18/1906:03>
The whole concept of augmented street samurais and cyber cowboys connecting their minds to a place called the matrix was basically invented by a guy that wasn't computer savvy at all - he didn't even own a computer. He wrote all his novels on an electronic typewriter. Even though the timeline moves forward, Shadowrun in its heart still have very much of that 80s cyberpunk feeling over it.

It is not really important to understand in detail how technology works many many years from now.

Wireless off = recharge require a wire.
Wireless on = wireless recharge (and vulnerable to hackers).

SR5 takes place in the future. It is also based on fiction. And it have dragons. And magic.

...and you worry about superconductors.

I don't think the issue is that you don't understand technology. I think the issue is that you understand 2018 technology a little bit too much and that you try a little bit too hard to apply your 2018 knowledge to the world of shadowrun in order to make sense of it all :)

Anyway..... Let's leave the philosophical stuff out of it.


The reason why there is a separation of duty (why the decker and the rigger and the magician and the street sam often are four different characters rather than the same character) is because it promotes teamwork. They enforced that aspect with SR5.

Having said that; Decker have a focus on logic, intuition and willpower. Riggers have a focus on reaction and logic. At least they have logic in common. And of course the fact that they both operate in the matrix.

If you seriously want the same character to take on multiple roles you might want to look at the key aspects that make them hard to hybrid. Why they are so hard to hybrid in SR5 is the fact that they use completely different skills (and a lot of them) and they both are also super resource intensive (can't really afford both aspects as once).

A solution could be to merge some of all them hacking, electronics, engineering and piloting skills (think it is like 16-17 skills) and simply just replace them all with:
- one Hacking skill (for "illegal" matrix actions such as breaching firewalls and proxies, elevating your access rights, snooping, spoofing, editing live camera feeds, cracking encryptions etc)
- one Computer skill (for "legal" matrix legwork, matrix perception, configuring your own firewall, encrypt your own files etc - could be a useful skill for none Rigger/Deckers as well)
- one Electronics skill (for repairing electronics, jamming signals, boosting signal strength, tapping into wired networks, jump starting stolen vehicles, short circuit maglock consoles, patch network cables etc.)
- one Mechanics skill (for repairing everything bigger than electronics, such as all types of vehicles and drones)
- one Manual Control skill (for manually controlling any vehicle - using Reaction, driving stick)
- one Remote Operations skill (for remote controlling devices, drones, vehicles and perhaps even remote weapon systems etc. - using Logic)

and cut prices on decker and rigger specific items. Perhaps you could consider merging the cyberdeck into the RCC. Or skip the device and just merge them both into a control rig-like augmentation.
Title: Re: [SR5] Revised Matrix and Rigging
Post by: Cabral on <06-06-18/2013:03>
Shadowrun grew past cyberpunk into post-cyberpunk and possibly transhumanism and then to a degree devolved in the latest edition. Also, if you consider Gibson the father of Cyberpunk, he considers Shadowrun god awful. I forget the name of the other main author who has legitimate claim to the title.
...and cut prices on decker and rigger specific items. Perhaps you could consider merging the cyberdeck into the RCC. Or skip the device and just merge them both into a control rig-like augmentation.
I'm not going to monkey with the skills. I will be making decks and hacking commlinks cheaper and may make the RCC into a program. I don't want them to become the same thing, just easier to overlap.

I am thinking of making a Network Security skill or specialization of Hacking or Computer for configuring the defenses. My gut reaction would be a Skill plus + Device Rating [Firewall Rating] or some variation. However, that is complicated by the fact that current defense test doesn't have a limit and that skills have a theoretical limit of twice the theoretical limit of devices (theoretical max of 16 dice with a limit of 9 successes). There is also the option of Device Rating + Firewall [Skill] (theoretical max of 15 dice with a limit of 12 successes), but the skill doesn't have a lot of impact. Perhaps Skill + Firewall [device rating x 2].
Title: Re: [SR5] Revised Matrix and Rigging
Post by: Xenon on <06-07-18/0242:38>
Defense tests do have a limit when you add a skill to the test or if you substitute one of the attributes for a skill. Reason most defense tests doesn't have a limit is because they are normally attribute + attribute tests (which don't have a limit).

For example, if you use the Dodge interrupt action to add Gymnastics to your defense test it become: Reaction + Intuition + Gymnastics [Physical].

Maybe Computer (Network Security) could be used in a similar manner. Adding its rating to the existing Logic + Firewall test, but in the process also imposing a limit.

Since low level devices will now be hidden behind a PAN or a LAN the limit on this test will be based on the rating of the router used to access the PAN (in this case the commlink or the host I guess?), which mean it can be pretty high... which mean you will often benefit from the extra dice without hitting the limit. Unless you are very skilled and is forced to work with crappy low end equipment.
Title: Re: [SR5] Revised Matrix and Rigging
Post by: Finstersang on <06-11-18/1009:21>
Something I posted before on other threads: The current Matrix gameplay is extremely crippled by the (IMO, absolutely awfull) Limits mechanic of SR5. However, that (and many other problems arising from Limits) can be fixed with a simple change to the core game mechanic: Use Soft Limits instead of Hard Limits

Basically, you don´t lose all your hits beyond the limit, but only keep half of them (round down). F.i., 5 Hits on a Limit of 3 make for 4 Hits in total (3 + the remaining 2 taken in half). Since gear limits are extremely punishing for Matrix Work, this change makes: