[jtkirk22]

2. Hosts and noise... noise inside a host is irrelevant because the are such large networks.
Noise is a factor when hacking from outside, this noise is determined by the distance (and other related factors) between the hacker and their access point to the host ( which should always be tied to some form of physical location).

Thanks again!

So, if I get you right, the noise between Hacker <=> Host is the same than Hacker <=> devices within the Host (because there is no noise within a Host, what seems to make the noise level of a Host be the same than the noise level of connected devices)?

Are there any information/points of reference about how to determine where such an "access point" could be? Would you rule that the Host of Facility is always the point of the main building? This seems pretty relevant, so a GM knows how to handle noise.

Let's say I want to hack for plans of the sewers. This building of the athority is miles away, but they have a public host. Am I able to just access the public host via VR without generating noise? Afterswards, I hack deeper for the plans. My GM says, he doesn't know how to handle such situations...

Thanks for your patience!

[Banshee]

2. Hosts and noise... noise inside a host is irrelevant because the are such large networks.
Noise is a factor when hacking from outside, this noise is determined by the distance (and other related factors) between the hacker and their access point to the host ( which should always be tied to some form of physical location).

Thanks again!

So, if I get you right, the noise between Hacker <=> Host is the same than Hacker <=> devices within the Host (because there is no noise within a Host, what seems to make the noise level of a Host be the same than the noise level of connected devices)?

Are there any information/points of reference about how to determine where such an "access point" could be? Would you rule that the Host of Facility is always the point of the main building? This seems pretty relevant, so a GM knows how to handly noise.

Thanks for your patience!

That can have a lot of variation depending on the nature of the host.

Most of the time I would say that yes it should be the facility associated with the host but you could have a situation where there is some fringe element. Example if Lonestar has a dispatch connection between its patrol cars and the main host then the patrol car could be an access point. Or if you're trying to infiltrate a R&D facility that has security cameras connected to the host the camera could be an access point.

It is only the initial distance you need to worry about, 9nce you are inside there is no additional noise for going after another device on that network regardless of distance.

[jtkirk22]

So, if I get you right, the noise between Hacker <=> Host is the same than Hacker <=> devices within the Host (because there is no noise within a Host, what seems to make the noise level of a Host be the same than the noise level of connected devices)?

Are there any information/points of reference about how to determine where such an "access point" could be? Would you rule that the Host of Facility is always the point of the main building? This seems pretty relevant, so a GM knows how to handly noise.

Thanks for your patience!

That can have a lot of variation depending on the nature of the host.

Most of the time I would say that yes it should be the facility associated with the host but you could have a situation where there is some fringe element. Example if Lonestar has a dispatch connection between its patrol cars and the main host then the patrol car could be an access point. Or if you're trying to infiltrate a R&D facility that has security cameras connected to the host the camera could be an access point.

It is only the initial distance you need to worry about, 9nce you are inside there is no additional noise for going after another device on that network regardless of distance.

First of all: Thanks for your fantastic support in this forum! It feels really statisfying to get direct responses from creators/designers!

So, if I get you right, I can give my GM a rule of thumb concerning Hosts that treat access points as "servers" and/or "connected devices". Maybe, being creative is seems more important than sticking to narrow rules - especially knowing that Noise is primarily there to avoid "couch hackers".

Please tell me, if I understood stomhing wrong.

[Banshee]

So, if I get you right, the noise between Hacker <=> Host is the same than Hacker <=> devices within the Host (because there is no noise within a Host, what seems to make the noise level of a Host be the same than the noise level of connected devices)?

Are there any information/points of reference about how to determine where such an "access point" could be? Would you rule that the Host of Facility is always the point of the main building? This seems pretty relevant, so a GM knows how to handly noise.

Thanks for your patience!

That can have a lot of variation depending on the nature of the host.

Most of the time I would say that yes it should be the facility associated with the host but you could have a situation where there is some fringe element. Example if Lonestar has a dispatch connection between its patrol cars and the main host then the patrol car could be an access point. Or if you're trying to infiltrate a R&D facility that has security cameras connected to the host the camera could be an access point.

It is only the initial distance you need to worry about, 9nce you are inside there is no additional noise for going after another device on that network regardless of distance.

First of all: Thanks for your fantastic support in this forum! It feels really statisfying to get direct responses from creators/designers!

So, if I get you right, I can give my GM a rule of thumb concerning Hosts that treat access points as "servers" and/or "connected devices". Maybe, being creative is seems more important than sticking to narrow rules - especially knowing that Noise is primarily there to avoid "couch hackers".

Please tell me, if I understood stomhing wrong.

1st ... no problem, after all I do this because I love the game and introducing new players

Absolutely... you are correct. I often tell people who are struggling with things to quit over thinking.. it's a game, so have fun

[Odsh]

Sorry for necroing an old thread, but I believe it's better to centralize all discussions in the same place for future reference.

So according to Banshee's original proposal here, as well as his Matrix FAQ:

Slaved devices - limited as specified in the CRB. These are normally devices that can be remote operated (such as drones/vehicles and weapon platforms) but could also include other devices that require extended range and protection at the same time.
Networked devices - no limit on the number of devices that can be networked to a PAN, distance limited by Data Processing of the network. They can not be remote operated. They DO get to use the master networks matrix attributes as normal.

To clarify: any device that can potentially be remote operated must be a slaved device, or it may be a networked device, but then you would lose the possibility to operate it remotely?

Example team setup - Each team member networks all of their personal devices to their commlink (providing personal protection based the commlink), then the team hacker can either network each commlink (providing presumably upgraded protection) or slave each commlink (allowing the same upgraded protection but at extended range).

Can for example the team's rigger slave a drone to his RCC, and then network the RCC to the hacker's PAN?
Will the drone then benefit from the hacker's attributes for matrix defense tests and at the same time be remotely operable by the rigger?

[Xenon]

The intention of this optional rule seem to be that smarter devices like drones and vehicles must ether take a slave slot or not be part of the network at all. It does not seem to be intended that your RCC get to provide its firewall rating to hundreds of drones at the same time.

In addition to this it seem to be clear that they also need to be slaved to the rigger's RCC if the rigger wish to utilize their RCC to their full extent (instructing multiple drones at the same time, jumping between them in one action, sharing autosofts to them, reducing noise etc).

But at the same time you can also own a vehicle but not slave it to your commlink or RCC. Sending instructions to the on-board autopilot can still be done even if it unlinked, at least as long as it is not parked too far away (reach is typically not world wide anymore like it used to be in previous edition).

If you have two matrix specialists in the team where one is accessing the matrix via a cyberdeck and the other via a RCC you could potentially merge your PANs into one larger network that utilize matrix attributes from both the cyberdeck and the RCC (depending on the matrix action being used against it).

But note that this in a way also make you more vulnerable. It will count as just one larger network. If a hostile hacker gain access to this larger network then he will suddenly have access on every single file as well as drone, vehicle, cyberdeck, cyberjack, RCC, commlink, weapon, cybernetic device etc. that both the rigger and the decker have slaved or networked.

In many cases it might be more secure to keep your networks segregated into different personal area networks...

[Odsh]

Thanks for your answer Xenon.

In addition to this it seem to be clear that they also need to be slaved to the rigger's RCC if the rigger wish to utilize their RCC to their full extent (instructing multiple drones at the same time, jumping between them in one action, sharing autosofts to them, reducing noise etc).

This was already discussed in another thread if I'm not mistaken: I assume you don't need an RCC to instruct, remote control or jump into a drone - as long as you don't do any of the RCC-restricted actions above. However, I suppose that you still need to slave the drone to one of your devices.

So let's say I have a Rating 6 Cyberjack with D/F of 9/8. With Data Processing 9, I can slave 9 drones to it and all 9 drones benefit from my Data Processing 9, Firewall 8 (or however I rearrange my matrix attributes) as well as my mental Attributes for defense.

Now, this is where it gets weird:

If you have two matrix specialists in the team where one is accessing the matrix via a cyberdeck and the other via a RCC you could potentially merge your PANs into one larger network that utilize matrix attributes from both the cyberdeck and the RCC (depending on the matrix action being used against it).

So I could for example:

• Buy as many Sony Emperor commlinks as needed (or as I can afford) for 700 nuyen each. These commlink have a Data Processing of 2 (with Banshees' adjusted ratings, else take the cheapest commlink with Device rating 2 from the CRB).
• Network these commlinks to my Rating 6 Cyberjack (no limit)
• Slave two drones to each Sony Emperor commlink

In other words, I can have as many drones as I wish in my network, all protected by my gear with the best D/F attributes, as long as I pay 700 nuyen for each drone above that gear's Device Limit.
I can't use any RCC-restricted actions for these drones (which I couldn't anyway to begin with since I don't have an RCC), but otherwise it seems like a relatively cheap way to circumvent the Device Limit.

I.m.h.o., it would be simpler to say that the Device Limit only applies to the very specific case of drones/vehicles slaved to an RCC when you wish to use its specific features. Otherwise, there is no use and no need for such a limit. Especially since, as you describe, increasing the size of a network is a double-edged sword anyway.

Maybe this is already the intention behind Banshee's rule, but in that case the wording could be clarified.

[Xenon]

I assume you don't need an RCC to instruct, remote control or jump into a drone

Correct. RCC is not needed. You can do all the above even if you access the matrix via another device, like a commlink.

But IF you access the matrix via a RCC instead of for example a commlink then you can instruct multiple drones with the same instruction and you can jump between drones without first jumping out of them and you can share autosofts with them and you can reduce noise within your PAN etc.

However, I suppose that you still need to slave the drone to one of your devices.

No.

Drones and vehicles can be unlinked. They don't need to be specifically be part of your personal area network.

You can still instruct the autopilot of drones you own (or spoof commands to drones you don't own) no matter if they are part of your network or unlinked (or part of someone else's network).

But IF you are accessing the matrix via a RCC and if your drones are slaved to your RCC then you can instruct multiple drones at once with the same minor action and when your drones are executing your instruction it can utilize autosofts you are sharing to them from your RCC.


You can still jump into drones (as long as you are connected to the matrix and have a control rig implant) you own no matter if they are part of your network or unlinked (and you can also do it with drones you are not the owner of as long as you have Admin access on the network the drone is part of or the drone itself in case it is unlinked - and if you are not the owner you also need to successfully take the Jump into Rigged Device action).

But IF you are accessing the matrix via a RCC and your drones are slaved to your RCC then you can jump between them without first taking an action to first jump out.

So let's say I have a Rating 6 Cyberjack with D/F of 9/8. With Data Processing 9, I can slave 9 drones to it and all 9 drones benefit from my Data Processing 9, Firewall 8 (or however I rearrange my matrix attributes) as well as my mental Attributes for defense.

Right... So, in this edition the enemy hacker is typically not really targeting your specific drone. An enemy hacker that is trying to gain access on your drone will actually be brute forcing or probing your entire network. Your entire network including all devices within it will defend with your mental attributes and whatever firewall you have available in your network.

Now, this is where it gets weird

I guess this depend on your reading.

I read it as if you are accessing the matrix via your RCC (and control rig) the number of drones you get to slave is equal to the RCC's device rating x 3. Number of program slots you can load/run at the same time is equal to the Data Processing rating of the RCC.

I read it as if you are accessing the matrix via your Cyberdeck (and cyberjack) the number of drones you get to slave is equal to the Datajacks Data Processing rating. Number of program slots you can load/run at the same time is equal to the deck's Active Program Slots ratin.

I read it as if you are accessing the matrix via your commlink (and datajack) the number of drones you get to slave is equal to the Commlink's Data Processing rating. Number of program slots you can load/run at the same time is equal to the link's Active Program Slots ratin.


It does seem as if one of the advantages of accessing the matrix via a RCC is that you get to potentially slave more drones. The intention does not seem to be that you should be able to slave hundreds of drones at the same time ;-)

but otherwise it seems like a relatively cheap way to circumvent the Device Limit.

This was one of the ideas that was discussed at an earlier stage, but as we started to discuss the "networked" idea more in detail it was considered the overall more solid solution (as it still respect the overall slave limit on number of drones) so the daisy chain solution (within your own PAN) was mostly discarded and thus not included in the Matrix FAQ.

I.m.h.o., it would be simpler to say that the Device Limit only applies to the very specific case of drones/vehicles ...

The limit also applies to smart firing platforms and perhaps some other "smart" devices out there.... and it also applies to 'regular' devices that you might wish to protect but are perhaps too far away from the device you used to access the matrix with in order to be 'networked' ('Slaved' typically have better reach than 'Networked').

Maybe this is already the intention behind Banshee's rule, but in that case the wording could be clarified.

I can tell you that several wordings were clarified quite a lot compared to the first draft of the Matrix FAQ ;-)

[Odsh]

So, to summarize and rephrase:

• You can network together as many devices as you want, without limit, as long as they stay within Data Processing x 100 meters (of what? (*)).
• The special features of an RCC can be used on a number of devices limited by the RCC's Data Processing.

(*) For a network, the concept of "master" device is outdated, since the network's defense ratings belong to a Persona and not a specific device. Even if a specific device that constitutes the Persona provides the Data Processing rating, you can still swap that around with a rating from a different device.

For example, if my persona is composed of two Transys Avalon commlinks with D/F 4/6 (Banshee's improved ratings), can I swap the ratings around to reach D/F 6/6?
If those two commlinks are situated 400 meters from each other, what is the area in which devices networked to my PAN are allowed?

[Xenon]

of what?

The device you use to connect to the matrix with (your commlink, cyberdeck or RCC).

limited by the RCC's Data Processing.

x3

the network's defense ratings belong to a Persona and not a specific device.

As I understands it (but I might be wrong):

Your persona and your programs are still running on the device you used to access the matrix with. Your drones are slaved to this device. Number of drones you can slave to this device is Data Processing of this specific device (or Data Processing x 3 if you access the matrix via your RCC instead of your commlink or cyberdeck). Your networked devices are networked to this device. If they are too far away from this device then they will no longer be networked and will become unlinked. If you want them to remain in your PAN you can instead slave them to this device (if you have any 'slave slots' left that is) as this typically give you a larger handshake range than if they are just networked.

If your matrix persona is taking damage then it is this device's matrix condition monitor that will soak the damage. If the device is bricked then you will be dumped from the matrix until you can either repair it or access the matrix via another device (such as a backup commlink or whatnot).


The Data Processing Rating and the Firewall rating that your PAN use to defend itself with might come from other devices that are part of your PAN. They don't necessarily need to just be provided by the device you used to access the matrix with. For example if you are accessing the matrix via cyberdeck you will probably use the Firewall rating of your implanted cyberjack or one of your networked commlinks. In the case of Riggers they typically get both their Data Processing and Firewall from the RCC itself, but if they have a low rated RCC and a high rated implanted cyberjack then they might switch out one or both of the attributes to the ratings provided by their cyberjack instead.

For example, if my persona is composed of two Transys Avalon commlinks with D/F 4/6 (Banshee's improved ratings), can I swap the ratings around to reach D/F 6/6?

If you access the matrix via one of your two Transys Avalon commlinks you will have a a D/F array of 4 and 6 to pick from (6/4 or 6/4). If you are close enough to network your other Transys Avalon commlink then you have an array of 4, 4, 6 and 6 to pick from (which meah you will probably go 6/6).

If those two commlinks are situated 400 meters from each other, what is the area in which devices networked to my PAN are allowed?

Your PAN originates from you and the the device you use to access the matrix with. If a networked device is too far from you and the device you used to access the matrix with then it will become unlinked. A way to still keep it in your PAN at further distance might be to use up one of your 'slave slots' as this typically have an extended range compared to regular networked devices.

The distance from an enemy hacker and your PAN is typically measured from the device he use to access the matrix with (his cyberdeck) and the device in your PAN that is closest to him (all your networked and slaved devices act as 'access points' for your network).

[Michael Chandra]

Yeah, if you want to RCC-with-noise-suppression-and-autosofts, you definitely are restricted. But if you do daisy-chaining, whelp. Honestly I'm not sure how I'd want to restrict that, I do lean towards a hard DPx3 for Commlinks and Jacks, DRx3 for Decks, and maybe deck+jack added up, myself.

[Xenon]

With a strict reading it seem as if devices need to be slaved to a commlink. Except for drones that can also be slaved to a RCC. It also seem as if number of slaves for a RCC is based upon its Device Rating x 3 (rather than its Data Processing as it is for Commlinks).

SR6 p. 168 Accessories
Commlinks can have a maximum number of “slaves” equal to their Data Processing. All other accessories are “open” connections and can be exploited.

SR6 p. 197 Rigger Command Console
An RCC can have a number of slaved drones equal to its Rating x 3.


Having said that, the intent is probably that you can also slave other devices to your RCC, in addition to drones.


On that topic. The intent is probably also that you can slave (any) devices to your Cyberdeck (but since Cyberdecks no longer have a Data Processing rating of their own the limit should perhaps be linked to their Device Rating, similar to how it seem to be for RCCs).

SR6 p. 283 Cyberjacks
The cyberjack provides a decker’s primary defense against hacking, offering Data Processing and Firewall ratings that cyberdecks no longer possess, and they also function as a standard datajack.


Or... even though there is no explicit mentioning about slaving devices in the cyberjack description (as it is for commlinks and RCCs) the intent might be that deckers can perhaps use the Data Processing rating from a cyberjack when slaving devices to their cyberdeck...?

SR6 p. 174 Personas and Attributes - Data Processing
The Data Processing attribute is the limit of many devices you can slave to it.


For technomancers the intent seem to be that you cannot slave devices to your Living Persona, unless you first get a Living Network Echo. In which case the intent seem to be that the Living Persona's Data Processing attribute (which is equal to the character's Logic attribute) act as the limit on number of devices they can slave.

SR6 p. 195 Echoes - Living Network
Your living persona can function as the master device in a PAN.