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AOE persistant effect spells

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kainite311

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« on: <04-15-18/0126:55> »
Sorry for rapid fire questions. New member,been trying to join forums for 2 months but stupid web provider blocks the email or authentication, unbeknownst to me...

AoE spells with a pesistant, sustainable effect (such as mass confusion, mass agony, chaotic world, ect...) Do the things caught in the initial effect that successfully resist it gain immunity to it for the duration it is sustained? Normally I would think yes. But what happens if the mage moves the effect somewhere else, then back again the next combat turn? Seems like cheese shenanigans to me if they can just keep doing that over and over forcing a new resist roll until you fail... Especially if they Edge/reagent a ridiculous AoE and then use it like that tactical laser nuke from Akira until you fail and then just keep it moving with those targets...
Kainite
Actually, in most Shadowrun games, they typically have a Lifestyle so they're either Murder Hobos (Street/Squatter Level) or Murder Renters (Low+ level)

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <04-15-18/0132:18> »
I'm not sure there's a case to be had that if a person walked into a pre-cast and sustained AOE Illusion like Chaotic World or Mass Agony that they'd even be subjected to the spell.  Ergo if someone inside the spell when it was cast fully resistedit, they needn't fear going outside then back inside the AOE either...
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

kainite311

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« Reply #2 on: <04-15-18/0138:50> »
I'm not sure there's a case to be had that if a person walked into a pre-cast and sustained AOE Illusion like Chaotic World or Mass Agony that they'd even be subjected to the spell.  Ergo if someone inside the spell when it was cast fully resistedit, they needn't fear going outside then back inside the AOE either...

Up it a notch and use the example in the core book. Mana Barrier on the moving van. If the opposing mage had pressed thru the barrier once, then left the for some reason and then came back... Hopefully see where I am getting at with this. Like I said, seems like cheese, but then again, whats the point of being able to move the spell, since the taget leaves the area on their pass and the mage can't move it until their turn...

OMG, do I have to prove I am human every time I post?
Kainite
Actually, in most Shadowrun games, they typically have a Lifestyle so they're either Murder Hobos (Street/Squatter Level) or Murder Renters (Low+ level)

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #3 on: <04-15-18/0146:19> »
I'm not sure there's a case to be had that if a person walked into a pre-cast and sustained AOE Illusion like Chaotic World or Mass Agony that they'd even be subjected to the spell.  Ergo if someone inside the spell when it was cast fully resistedit, they needn't fear going outside then back inside the AOE either...

Up it a notch and use the example in the core book. Mana Barrier on the moving van. If the opposing mage had pressed thru the barrier once, then left the for some reason and then came back... Hopefully see where I am getting at with this. Like I said, seems like cheese, but then again, whats the point of being able to move the spell, since the taget leaves the area on their pass and the mage can't move it until their turn...

Mana Barriers are not Illusions.  Apples and Oranges... and in this case it appears relevant to point out the difference.  There's perhaps a surprising amount of significance to the rules given at the start of each spell type.  The rules governing Illusions are on pgs 289-290.

Whereas something like an Invisibility spell absolutely "saves" data relating to the # of hits for the purposes of seeing if people who later encounter the subject resist the spell.. that's a case where those people aren't the subjects of the spell.  Like I said, it seems to be hazy and up to GM interpretation... but going by what I'm seeing I wouldn't have a spell like Chaotic World or Mass Agony keep afflicting new targets.. sustaining it only keeps it going on those who were initially hit and failed to resist. YMMV.  OTOH something like Ice Sheet, an AoE manipulation spell, would absolutely affect new people as they walk into (well, onto) the spell's aoe. 

To resynthesize: there are no blanket rules governing "aoe sustained" spells.  It matters by spell type, and isn't going to always be the same answer across spell types.

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OMG, do I have to prove I am human every time I post?

I think for like 10 posts, yes.  But it'll stop relatively soon.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

kainite311

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« Reply #4 on: <04-15-18/0156:00> »
I'm not sure there's a case to be had that if a person walked into a pre-cast and sustained AOE Illusion like Chaotic World or Mass Agony that they'd even be subjected to the spell.  Ergo if someone inside the spell when it was cast fully resistedit, they needn't fear going outside then back inside the AOE either...

Up it a notch and use the example in the core book. Mana Barrier on the moving van. If the opposing mage had pressed thru the barrier once, then left the for some reason and then came back... Hopefully see where I am getting at with this. Like I said, seems like cheese, but then again, whats the point of being able to move the spell, since the taget leaves the area on their pass and the mage can't move it until their turn...

Mana Barriers are not Illusions.  Apples and Oranges... and in this case it appears relevant to point out the difference.  There's perhaps a surprising amount of significance to the rules given at the start of each spell type.  The rules governing Illusions are on pgs 289-290.

Whereas something like an Invisibility spell absolutely "saves" data relating to the # of hits for the purposes of seeing if people who later encounter the subject resist the spell.. that's a case where those people aren't the subjects of the spell.  Like I said, it seems to be hazy and up to GM interpretation... but going by what I'm seeing I wouldn't have a spell like Chaotic World or Mass Agony keep afflicting new targets.. sustaining it only keeps it going on those who were initially hit and failed to resist. YMMV.  OTOH something like Ice Sheet, an AoE manipulation spell, would absolutely affect new people as they walk into (well, onto) the spell's aoe. 

To resynthesize: there are no blanket rules governing "aoe sustained" spells.  It matters by spell type, and isn't going to always be the same answer across spell types.


That's kinda how I was understanding it, but while it may somewhat have been apples to oranges, there was no real distinction in the spell class headers. And I didn't want to knock it out simply because illusion class of spell, because players come up with ever interesting super cheese. What if the AoE illusion is disguising the house and maintained by a foci, anchor, spirit and they saw though it one day, but what about the next day they drive by, or vice versa, failed to see it, so they never see it since you only get one shot. Not really a question, as I would simply GM fiat that, but players be players and try to weaponize the rule book sometimes :)
Kainite
Actually, in most Shadowrun games, they typically have a Lifestyle so they're either Murder Hobos (Street/Squatter Level) or Murder Renters (Low+ level)

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #5 on: <04-15-18/0208:01> »
A tongue in cheek rule in Shadowrun Missions (the organized play "league" for SR5):

"However, be warned, if you try and argue with [the GM] he is authorized to smack you upside the head with the Shadowrun, Fifth Edition book."

As for weaponizing the rulebook, here's another fun gem:

Quote from: SRM Chicago FAQ v1.4 pg 62
How much damage does the SR5 book do, anyway?
The Origins Special Edition is softback, so only does Strength(S) damage. The regular hardback edition does Strength+1(P). The Limited Edition Hardback does Strength+2(P) with –1 AP. The Deluxe Mayan Limited Edition does Strength+2(P) and has –2 AP. If the slipcase is still on, it gains an additional –1 AP.

They're for-fun rules, but they illustrate a shadowrun principle:  players aren't by default considered to be enfranchised to "weaponize" the rulebook.  This ain't Pathfinder :)
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

PiXeL01

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« Reply #6 on: <04-15-18/0553:02> »
Just expose your players to the same kind of shenanigans until your table comes to a gentlemen’s about the conduct.
But as it’s written anytime a person reenters an effect area they have to resist anew versus the spell as long as it’s being sustained.
Remember that moving a spell around takes actions, meaning the magician will be preoccupied by that and cannot conjuror new spells or spirits ^^
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SpellBinder

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« Reply #7 on: <04-15-18/1325:32> »
Just expose your players to the same kind of shenanigans until your table comes to a gentlemen’s about the conduct.
But as it’s written anytime a person reenters an effect area they have to resist anew versus the spell as long as it’s being sustained.
Remember that moving a spell around takes actions, meaning the magician will be preoccupied by that and cannot conjuror new spells or spirits ^^
And don't forget about the Dispelling action mages and mystics can perform.  Many AOE spells are effective based on net hits, and reducing that number reduces the effectiveness of that spell.

kainite311

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« Reply #8 on: <04-15-18/1337:29> »
Just expose your players to the same kind of shenanigans until your table comes to a gentlemen’s about the conduct.
But as it’s written anytime a person reenters an effect area they have to resist anew versus the spell as long as it’s being sustained.
Remember that moving a spell around takes actions, meaning the magician will be preoccupied by that and cannot conjuror new spells or spirits ^^
And don't forget about the Dispelling action mages and mystics can perform.  Many AOE spells are effective based on net hits, and reducing that number reduces the effectiveness of that spell.

But the dispeller suffers drain as if they cast the spell if they succeed in even dispelling a portion of the spell.
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P.295 "If the spell is reduced to 0 net hits, the spell ends completely. Regardless of how it goes, you take the Drain from the spell as if you had cast it—Physical if the spell’s Force was higher than your Magic rating, Stun otherwise."
Which could be huge issue when the original caster is using reagents, foci, edge, whatever to initial cast the super high powered roving death orb of chaos, destruction... Which could be, painful...
« Last Edit: <04-15-18/1340:06> by kainite311 »
Kainite
Actually, in most Shadowrun games, they typically have a Lifestyle so they're either Murder Hobos (Street/Squatter Level) or Murder Renters (Low+ level)

PiXeL01

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« Reply #9 on: <04-15-18/1713:00> »
Use high-powered weaponry like rifles and cannons. Or even someone sneaking up l, putting a knife in their ribs.
Kind of hard to move a spell around, even sustain one when your head is missing or your lungs are filling up with blood.
If Tom Brady’s a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

PiXeL01

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« Reply #10 on: <04-15-18/1714:41> »
The drain of dispelling would not be high if they moved edge or foci to cast the spell. It would be the same as the caster. It isn’t dispelling isn’t based on hits but the force of the spell, isn’t it?
If Tom Brady’s a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #11 on: <04-15-18/1722:35> »
Dispelling is Garbage.  You have to do an opposed test, and however many/few net hits you get go towards reducing hits, needing to match the original unopposed hits generated when the spell was cast to end it.  Regardless of how many/few net hits the would-be dispeller scores, he resists full drain as if he cast the spell.  So you'll almost assuredly have to resist drain multiple times to dispel a spell.

You used to be able to just use Astral Combat on a spell, or target it with a Combat Spell of your own, to "kill" a sustained spell.  Apparently those aren't supported options anymore in 5th edition.  I'd absolutely support house rules to allow those legacy methods to work in 5th.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

PiXeL01

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« Reply #12 on: <04-15-18/1858:28> »
You can add foci, edge and reagents to the dispelling test too, and facing the same drain as the original casting, which would probably be 2 since the players used reagents to cast the spell in the first place.
Another way to counter this trick is to add a magician with the shielding metamagic on the opposing team. At least until they get it. Maybe even make the protector a high force spirit or dragon ...
If Tom Brady’s a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

SpellBinder

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« Reply #13 on: <04-16-18/0027:54> »
On the subject of foci, a Power focus also applies to the Dispelling test since it's Magic + Counterspelling.  And you can apply the Centering metamagic technique and/or Mentor's Mask as well to mitigate that Drain as both aren't exclusive to spellcasting only (like fetishes are).  Even a Centering Focus will work, if you happen to have one.  Then there's also buff spells for Willpower and whatever your other Drain attribute happens to be (unless it's Magic).

And Shielding doesn't apply to Dispelling.  Sadly, it explicitly states so in the metamagic description.

Now if the Force of the spell really scares you, one can always just cast Mana Static to create a zone of BGC to bring down the Force of that spell.  But then when you try to Dispel it afterwards you're just gimping your own dice pool accordingly.  Another alternative is to conjure up a Guardian, Guidance, or Plant spirit and make them perform the Dispelling action, but depending on how powerful you might think the spell is you might be better off doing it yourself instead of dealing with the summoning Drain.

But you might not need a complete destruction of the spell at all.  If you get the sustained spell's net hits down to at least equal to what you scored to resist the spell, you'd be no longer affected by it.