[Raizen]

I have a player who is attempting to hack a hidden device built into a commlink. He had the idea to setup a jammer and then connect to the commlink directly to avoid building an OS while he tinkered with it. It seemed like a pretty smart idea to me, so I am leaning towards letting it rock. My question is would that really be it all takes to thwart GOD?

My caveat was that the noise generated had to exceed the DR of the commlink. I guess the idea seemed so simple that I wanted to check if this had been addressed somewhere I missed.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

Unfortunately no, not as RAW (Rules As Written).

MATRIX ACTIONS
As you’ve no doubt guessed from the name, Matrix actions are only available in the Matrix.

All those Matrix Actions your hacker is trying to use?  Can't be used if they don't have access to the Matrix.

Now, that doesn't stop the player from using a Jammer to block the commlink from broadcasting (and alerting the owner) and then direct connecting to the comm, but they still generate OS because their Deck has to have access to the Matrix.

And for the record, yes.  This means that if you have to enter a "dark site" (Faraday caged off from the Matrix) it is absolutely impossible for a Decker on site to hack the network because they, too, are cut off from the Matrix.

You are absolutely free to rule otherwise.

[Jayde Moon]

Hmmmm...

So, the Matrix can refer to the World Wide Matrix or the internal software workings of a device or network of devices.

GOD is monitoring the greater network and has to access it wirelessly.

If you are 100% not able to make a connection between your Deck and GOD, then GOD cannot develop an overwatch score on you.

Wireless does not equal Matrix.  If you direct connect into a commlink to hack it, but don't want GOD to k ow at all, just turn off the wireless functionality.  Much like putting your smartphone in airplane mode.

This may not be literally supported by the strictest interpretation of RAW, but if it's confusing and folks are not applying this logic to the activity, then maybe errata needs to be introduced.

I guess we'll know if that's the case when this explodes into 15 pages of nerdbickering.

[Michael Chandra]

First of all, how dare you, second of all, you are wrong, in this 2000-word essay I will *gets taken out by a sniper*

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The gist I get from 5th Edition is the only hacking you can do "offline" is the Hardware test to illegally but functionally change ownership of the device (pg 236)

So yes my understanding is all other actions, to include the Brute Force/Hack on the Fly actions that are required to place marks that are in turn required to hack a device you don't already own, only work on the Matrix as already expressed upthread.  I completely agree with the sentiment that it takes more than a data cable between two wireless-off devices to "have Matrix".

Now, granted, some Matrix Actions can make sense even without having "any matrix".  For example, if all wireless is disabled but you have a data cable plugged in, it doesn't strain anything fluff or rules-wise to perform a Search action on that device "through" the data cable.  Again speaking solely personally, I think those are the exceptions rather than the rule.  I could get behind an "exemption clause" giving actions that don't cause an Overwatch Score to be performed without needing any Matrix Connectivity.

But again I'm firmly of the opinion/understanding that if you want to hack a device and you don't have any Matrix connectivity, the only thing you can do is the Hardware test to give yourself ownership of the device. 

[Michael Chandra]

The gist I get from 5th Edition is the only hacking you can do "offline" is the Hardware test to illegally but functionally change ownership of the device (pg 236)

Actually, you can't. Ownership is also stored online, which means you can't change it offline. That also means that to change ownership, you have to get back on the radar, making it dangerous.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The gist I get from 5th Edition is the only hacking you can do "offline" is the Hardware test to illegally but functionally change ownership of the device (pg 236)

Actually, you can't. Ownership is also stored online, which means you can't change it offline. That also means that to change ownership, you have to get back on the radar, making it dangerous.

Perhaps.  While it doesn't say you can't do it offline, neither does it say you have to be online.  It does spell out the risk of a glitch alerting authorities and that obviously can't happen while it's offline... so the glitch either is saying you must do it online or the outcome of the glitch simply is delayed until you DO go online.  Anyway.. if changing ownership can't be done without a wireless connection to the Matrix "at large", then certainly no other hacking actions can be either.

[Michael Chandra]

No perhaps about it. It was clarified by writers to require being online. But that was about 5 years ago, so is proving too tricky for me to find. All I found was people echoing the statement without a direct link to the original.

The rulebook does explicitly state it's also registered in the Grids, though.

[Jayde Moon]

Anyway.. if changing ownership can't be done without a wireless connection to the Matrix "at large", then certainly no other hacking actions can be either.

The thought process here is erroneous.

Stepping away from 'rules' and into the realm of our real world reality, if you have access to an Information System and it's input devices, you can attempt to hack it, whether it's connected to the internet or not.

However, if the owner registered that device with the manufacturer (for warranty purposes, this is the closest thing we have that matches ownership as a concept), you cannot access and change ownership without being able to access the location that the registration information is stored.  Which then requires internet access.

Moving to the world of Shadowrun... the idea that you cannot wirelessly hack devices flies in the face of countless written modules and official fiction in which a decker must establish a direct physical connection to a device or host that is not connected to the Matrix (usually for security purposes).

There is literally no justification, other than an arbitrary one, to announce that you cannot use matrix actions without wireless access.  Your tools are stored on your deck, your knowledge is your own.

The Matrix and 'Wireless' are not synonymous.  If someone can show me in RAW where the Matrix is specified to be ONLY the network of devices interlinked on the world wide network that GOD can access (I'll call it the 'default network' from here), I welcome the reference.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

No perhaps about it. It was clarified by writers to require being online. But that was about 5 years ago, so is proving too tricky for me to find. All I found was people echoing the statement without a direct link to the original.

It is cleaned up in Data Trails.

Changing ownership legally takes roughly a minute, while changing it illegally requires an extended Hardware + Logic [Mental] (24, 1 hour) Test (see p. 237, SR5 for more details). Performing this test requires access to the Matrix.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

The Matrix and 'Wireless' are not synonymous.  If someone can show me in RAW where the Matrix is specified to be ONLY the network of devices interlinked on the world wide network that GOD can access (I'll call it the 'default network' from here), I welcome the reference.

That is easy.

Matrix: The worldwide telecommunications network and everyone and everything connected to and by that network.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Anyway.. if changing ownership can't be done without a wireless connection to the Matrix "at large", then certainly no other hacking actions can be either.

The thought process here is erroneous.

Stepping away from 'rules' and into the realm of our real world reality, if you have access to an Information System and it's input devices, you can attempt to hack it, whether it's connected to the internet or not.

However, if the owner registered that device with the manufacturer (for warranty purposes, this is the closest thing we have that matches ownership as a concept), you cannot access and change ownership without being able to access the location that the registration information is stored.  Which then requires internet access.

Moving to the world of Shadowrun... the idea that you cannot wirelessly hack devices flies in the face of countless written modules and official fiction in which a decker must establish a direct physical connection to a device or host that is not connected to the Matrix (usually for security purposes).

There is literally no justification, other than an arbitrary one, to announce that you cannot use matrix actions without wireless access.  Your tools are stored on your deck, your knowledge is your own.

The Matrix and 'Wireless' are not synonymous.  If someone can show me in RAW where the Matrix is specified to be ONLY the network of devices interlinked on the world wide network that GOD can access (I'll call it the 'default network' from here), I welcome the reference.

I was going to quibble with you, based on files "on a commlink" are never presumed to actually have the 1s and 0s stored anywhere physically ON the commlink.  Your Maria Mercurial playlist, your grocery list, your photos of your cousin's kids, all are stored on a Renraku server somewhere performing what we'd IRL call "cloud storage".  No Matrix connection = no access to your own files "on" your commlink.

I went to quote support for this argument (pg 223, SR5) but I see I misremembered.  It doesn't actually say that a Sixth World analogue for cloud computing is the explanation for why there's essentially unlimited storage space on 2070s era devices.  The ubiquitous wireless connections between everything could be an explanation for effectively infinite storage, but it's not explicitly said to be the reason.

So mea culpa.  Unwittingly got head canon involved there.  I'd still argue that no Matrix=No Matrix actions means what it says on pg 237.  Prior canonical examples of direct connecting don't necessarily contradict this... if a device isn't wireless then obviously it isn't using distributed storage and so for example a data search can work without going wireless in a case like this.  I'd argue it, but if you're gonna play the "I'm a "Powers That Be" card, I'll acknowledge I'm talking head-canon.

[Xenon]

If you are 100% not able to make a connection between your Deck and GOD, then GOD cannot develop an overwatch score on you.

You can hack an offline device while still having a matrix persona with matrix attributes that is connected to a Grid and the matrix as a whole. It is described on p. 232 Direct Connections.

What you are suggesting is that you may also disconnect your cyberdeck (and with it your persona) from the grids and the matrix as a whole and still be allowed to use matrix actions (without building overwatch score).

I can think of at least a few quotes that contradict that statement.

SR5 p. 237 Matrix Actions
Matrix actions are only available in the Matrix.

SR5 p. 231 Overwatch Score and Convergence
...the best hackers in the world can’t hack the Matrix without leaving tiny clues to their passing. GOD and the demiGODs are on the lookout for these kinds of clues...

Not to mention every example I looked at in both core and DT (with reservation that I don't have Kill Code yet) where a decker establish a direct connection to a device is done while the decker have access to a grid and the matrix as a whole where it also generates overwatch score.... I can't find any example with an offline decker hacking anything.

I am sure there are more. I just cba to search for them right now :-)

This may not be literally supported by the strictest interpretation of RAW, but if it's confusing and folks are not applying this logic to the activity, then maybe errata needs to be introduced.

I guess we'll know if that's the case when this explodes into 15 pages of nerdbickering.

Snicker :-)

All I found was people echoing the statement without a direct link to the original.

Unfortunately this was not discussed in the FAQ thread (which is still pinned and easy to find even though it have a lot of pages...).

Instead it was in the form of a reply from Aaron in a thread about stealing a car in the world of Shadowrun. The topic might not even been in the rules section of the forum (I am thinking General?). The year was 2013 or so.

He basically said something like "and before you ask, yes, you have to be online during the extended test" (but the exact wording eludes me which make it hard to search).

Doesn't really matter since it was then later clarified in Data Trails.

DT p. 169 Ownership
Changing ownership legally takes roughly a minute, while changing it illegally requires an extended Hardware + Logic [Mental] (24, 1 hour) Test (see p. 237, SR5 for more details). Performing this test requires access to the Matrix.

I was going to quibble with you, based on files "on a commlink" are never presumed to actually have the 1s and 0s stored anywhere physically ON the commlink...

While I am sure the world of SR5 also let you store stuff in the matrix (great for all you device less Technomancers out there) I can at least think a couple quotes that prove that your commlink (or deck) have non-cloud-based storage space you may utilize to store things on.

SR5 p. 223 Life with a commlink
So where do you store all of the things you want to keep? Pictures from your Aunt Edna’s wedding, credit information, your SIN, every book and movie you’ve bought, all the programs you might want to run—all of it fits on your commlink (or cyberdeck if you prefer). In fact, every device on the Matrix has a massive amount of storage space, unthinkable amounts by early 21st century standards. Your gamemaster might decide that a device is too small or low-grade or a file so massively large that a problem comes up, but such problems are extremely rare. Even if it does, the entire world is wireless, so you shouldn’t have trouble finding an alternate storage location.

SR5 p. 228 Reconfiguring your deck
When you reconfigure your deck, you can either switch two of your deck’s Matrix attributes, or swap a running program with a program you have stored on your deck that is not running.

SR5 p. 242 Snoop
You can listen to, view, or read this data live, or you can save it for later playback/viewing if you have something to store it on (your deck will do).

SR5 p. 250-251 Living Persona
Since your living persona is just a persona, not a device, you don’t have any onboard storage; this is easy enough to deal with because you can store files in nearby devices.

[Beta]

@Stainless Steel Devil Rat: one of the programs you can get in Data Trails is called Cloudless, and the explicit purpose is to actually keep your files on your deck, instead of distributed all over the wherever.   Which does kind of support your head canon to a degree -- it suggests that distributed storage is the norm.  Although it also suggests that there CAN be exceptions ...

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

@xenon: those quotes aren't quite saying what you're saying they say.  They're talking about "storage", not explicitly local storage (as say, the Cloudless program permits as Beta pointed out).  I was saying, essentially, "cloud storage" is the same thing as "storage" as used by passages such as those you quoted.  Especially the "living with a commlink" passage.  As I granted, saying "all storage is (potentially) cloud storage" isn't as cut and dried provable as I thought... but I still think that was the intent.  Of course, excepting the deliberately non-wireless stuff.

[Kincaid]

The line you're likely looking for is, "Performing this test requires access to the Matrix" from Data Trails (p. 169).  While it should have been better written, it is meant to clarify that the device that is undergoing the change needs to be on the Matrix for the duration of the test.  (Source: I wrote the poorly-written sentence.)

No perhaps about it. It was clarified by writers to require being online. But that was about 5 years ago, so is proving too tricky for me to find. All I found was people echoing the statement without a direct link to the original.

The rulebook does explicitly state it's also registered in the Grids, though.