[Jayde Moon]

I think we are of like minds, friend.

[Lorebane24]

I think binding spirits should cost money (reagents).  As for summoning, I think that they do way too much for what you need to invest.  With spells, you need to invest in the skill, learn the spell, and then resist drain every time you cast it.  They can definitely have big effects and offer great utility - but often for one round.  Spirits, on the other hand...  You invest in the skill.  That's it.  Now you have access to five different spirits that you can give a custom power or two to fit whatever you need at the time.  You resist drain one time, and now you, at a minimum, have a powerful ally that will assist you for the duration of an encounter.  If you want to spend a service, you can employ targeted uses of their powers and often effectively replicate spell effects.  My experience has been that services are very easy to manage, and though I guess this one depends on the GM, I have never thought it was challenging enough to mantain your spirit reputation to offset the power that summoning brings to the table.

Yes, you can quickly dismiss spirits with the banishing skill, but using this so regularly, I feel, quickly makes magic feel commonplace to the point that it becomes utterly mundane.  In my games, I use the following two house rules to scale back the power of summoning a little and make it a little more balanced for what you need to invest in it.  First, a mage has to learn to summon each type of spirit of their tradition just as they would learn a spell - I give every mage +2 spell slots to offset this cost a little, but it means that being a summoner requires a little more dedication - if you go whole hog and learn every spirit type, your library of spells won't be as diverse as someone who decided to focus on spellcasting.

Secondly, I ran with a suggest in Shadow Spells (I think.  Maybe it was Street Grimoire?)  that spirits will only perform tasks that are at least somewhat related to their associated spell category.  I play this kind of loosely, basically having spirits going about performing a task in a way that maintains the spirit of this category, though they will flat out refuse a task that cannot be reasonably connected to their category at all.  If you give a spirit and order to stop a fleeing vehicle, your tradition's combat spirit would simply attack the vehicle until it was disabled, while a manipulation spirit might do a more targeted sabotage to the engine or create barriers on the road.  A detection spirit would refuse such an order (no service would be consumed), but it would be happy to follow and report on its final destination.  I make an exception to this for bound spirits, who will perform any sort of task, but if you start binding regularly spirit reputation is going to take more work to mantain.

[Reaver]

it's pretty clear that without GM fiat the rules for binding, as written, are broken/ open to abuse/ not balanced (take your pick).

This depends on your definition of "broken/open to abuse/not balanced" means.
What is "broken"? That you can bind spirits in a ritual that takes hours to complete? That it costs $500/force of the spirit(s)? That it gets harder/more expensive the higher the force of the spirit you wish to bind?

What does "Open to Abuse" mean? Pretty much everything is open to abuse. A Rigger can get a fairly nice, big, sturdy truck right out of chargen. And then decide to drive that truck right down the sidewalk of the Seattle downtown district, and there is nothing but GM fiat to stop him too. A Sammy can buy as many grenades as his resources will allow right out of Chargen. And he can walk past a kindergarden school tossing said grenades at the kiddies all he likes, and only GM fiat can stop him.

What does "Balanced" mean?? Balanced to what? By what measure? By WHOSE measure? "Balance" is a nebulous term when dealing with concepts or ethereal objectives. You can't measure, weight, examine, hold or observe the ethereal; You can only judge it - which is flawed by human perception, opinion and bias.

You have a choice. You can have "balance" or you can have "options". You can't have both. If you want balance, Fine. This is how you do it:

1: remove Edge totally.
2: All stats can be no lower, and no higher after ALL options(enhancements/karma/magic/etc) than 3.
3: all Limits are set to 3 and can never be changed.
4: all damage, no matter the source is 3s or 3p. Modified as normal. (So a spell/gun/missile/punch/axe ALL have a damage code of 3.)
5: all armor is caped at no less than and no more then 3. No hardened armor.


There you go! Now everyone has the same dice pool, the same resistance pool, the same damage potential, the health potential. Everything is balanced!

OR

You can have some options. Your choice in what type of game you want to play.... But understand that by the simple act of allowing options, you are allowing imbalance into the game. And when you as many options as Shadowrun has, you will NEVER, EVER have balance. Ever. Mostly because like I said above, the very idea of "Balance" is nebulous..
Lets drop Magic from the equation for a moment, and just look at the mundanes and the Priority system as it stands in the CRB. Before 2 difference people crack open the book, they are totally "balanced". They each have a Priorities A, B, C, D, E to spend. They both build and complete their characters.

Character A is a Cyber troll Sammy.
Character B is a Human Face, with 0 combat skills, 0 cyber.

Are these characters Balanced in a Gun Fight? What about a Fist Fight? What about a running race? How about the bench press? What about is dealing damage? What about in taking damage?!?
Clearly, the end results are not balanced, the whole system must be flawed!
Or, my perception of "balance" might be flawed... And if you look really close at the list of things I picked to compare, I picked things that a Troll would dominate in, while totally ignoring the areas that the Face character was built for, namely info gathering, smooth talking, and social encounters.
They Both started with the same resources, they faced the same character design choices, and they both built their characters to their liking. They are by every measure of the rules, "Balanced" as they both expended they same resources to reach the final goal of completing a Character. But they will never perform the same in any task they attempt.
And THAT's the problem with options.

so far no one has offered a rational for why you should be able to bind 4-8 force 5-6 spirits out of chargen.

therefore there is no reason to include this capability.

It gives a mage Options. That is all.

You may not like the option, but it is there. Just like a Techno can have a swarm of agents (even if Techno are FUBAR ATM), or just like a Rigger can have a swarm of Drones, A Mage can have a Host of Spirits.

now lets look at that claim, while reviewing page 301 CRB.

Page 301 CRB

Binding is used to compel long-term services from a
spirit that you’ve already summoned. This takes one
hour per Force of the spirit and requires (Force x 25)
drams of reagents to be used up in the binding. The test
is an Opposed Binding + Magic [Force] v. spirit’s Force
x 2, and it inflicts Drain equal to twice the hits (not net
hits) on the spirit’s defense test, minimum 2. Additional
net hits beyond the first add to the number of services
the spirit owes.
Once the spirit is bound, then the spirit and its services
do not expire at the next sunrise or sunset. A spirit’s
service ends when it has no more services owed
to the magician. The bound spirit can be called or dismissed
with a Simple Action as they appear next to the
magician from the metaplane, awaiting further instructions
on the astral. A magician can bind up to his Charisma
attribute in spirits.

Lets be an ass and look at the high end of your claim at 8 force 6 spirits. The first part is that he can only summon a single spirit at a time, and only bind one spirit at a time. (Big deal, we know this, and this is not in dispute).
The BASIC cost per spirit just for the binding is $3000. That is a $24,000 investment for 8 spirits. At most he is only have 6 services per spirit. For a total of 48 services.
Which works out to $500 per service. 

So he gets to pull this stun 48 times, at a cost of 500/service before he has to go about summoning and binding six more spirits.

That's also $24,000 worth of options he doesn't have. Options like armor, a commlink, a SIN, a lifestyle, or any one of a number of things that could potentially stop said mage and his Army of Spirits from every even getting to the lobby of a Corp!





Hypothetical Question for you:

If every time you answered the door, I hit you in the face with a shovel, how long would it be before you stopped answering the door when I knocked?

Spirits are Sapient, they think, feel, want, and desire for themselves. BUT, they also have a "hive mind" collective knowledge, so Johnny Spirit knows that you got Freddy Spirit disrupted those 6 times through the services Freddy owed you, So why in the heck would Johnny answer the "door" to your summons when you just got through hitting Freddy in the face with a shovel?!?! 6 times no less!

And YES, The Spirit index is a VERY good tool at stopping the very behavoir that this thread talks about as I have actually had to deal with a player and his "Spirit Army of Doom" (His Words, not mine). And after 36 times of asking "Are you SURE?" and "Do you think that is best?" clues from me and other players, he was really pissed and sore that not only would spirits not answer a Summons, Free Spirits were actively hostile to him! 


You may not like Binding, and that is fine. You may not like how some players use it, and that is also fine.

But it does what it is supposed to do, which is to provide an option, its up to the players on what they do with that option, if they even wish to use it.
Can it be disrupting? Sure. But every option comes with a level of disruption to it.







OH And to your "Invisible Army of Death" wish comment.

Its the same as the technological army that a Techno can bring to bare. It is the same as the army a Rigger has access to once he jacks into the building.
Neither one needs to bring a magical hand grenade, or a drone with them.  They may not burn people, or blow them over, but a bunch of Agents can activate halon systems and suffocate an entire floor, Disable elevators, sending them crashing to their doom. Lock all the doors and windows while creating a feedback short circuit starting a fire to burn the entire building down with everyone in it.
A Rigger can take control of the Spider nest, turning the entire building into a happy murder house of fun! 
And, naturally a great Dragon could turn up and decide to to cause everyone in the city to all die at once too. Fun times!
 

 

[welldressedgent]

Money isn’t everything, and it’s not what spirits need. Whatever would they spend it on?

They need more personality. The spirit what wants to be paid in odd-numbered confederate war bonds. The spirit who’s afraid of children. The spirit who thinks he’s the Grinch. Make your wizard negotiate for those services and you’ll end up with a better story. Less OP too.

WDG

[Finstersang]

Surprisingly, the "Spirit Army" never actually happened at my tables. Maybe the players have a conscience for how extremely OP this option may be, but I also suspect that they shy away from more bookkeeping and additional combatants.

It´s generaly weird how SR5 is pushing pet classes so hard: Besides Summoners and Drone Riggers, the only way to currently play a TM is by (ab)using Sprites. Now imagine a table with a Drone Rigger, a dedicated Summoner and a Spritenomancer! I´d go nuts as a GM! The abundance and (apart from Drones...) high power level of Pets/Minions is not just breaking game balance, it´s also making everything more confusing and propagates a playstyle that is, at least for the majority of players, less satisfying than doing things yourself 

Anyway, my personal take on this issue:

• Summoning a Spirit costs [Force]x10 Reagents. Its mostly a symbolic price, but at least there´s some rationale to not just summon Spirits like a conveyor belt. Also, you can cripple a Summoner (PC or NPC) by stripping them from their reagents.
• Summoners can find and use Summoning "Hotspots" to lower the price or summon a Spirit for free. A revered Statue of political figure may be used to summon a Spirit of Man or Guidance, a piece of roadkill may give rise to an animal spirit, a decorative office geode may be used for a Spirit of Earth etc. Rewarding players for creativity is always a good idea!
• Controlling an unbound Spirit is treated as Sustaining a Spell of the same Level (-2 Modifier, compensatable by Drugs, Qualities etc.)
• Controlling a bound Spirit doesn´t incur a modifier - that´s why you bind them. However, a mage can control a number of 1+Initiation Grade Spirits at once, bound or unbound.
• "Spirit abusers" should be treated by their minions as malignant and unkind as possible: Only doing the bare minimum, deliberately interpreting orders in unfavorable ways etc.

[Sphinx]

Anyway, my personal take on this issue:

• Summoning a Spirit costs [Force]x10 Reagents. Its mostly a symbolic price, but at least there´s some rationale to not just summon Spirits like a conveyor belt. Also, you can cripple a Summoner (PC or NPC) by stripping them from their reagents.
• Summoners can find and use Summoning "Hotspots" to lower the price or summon a Spirit for free. A revered Statue of political figure may be used to summon a Spirit of Man or Guidance, a piece of roadkill may give rise to an animal spirit, a decorative office geode may be used for a Spirit of Earth etc. Rewarding players for creativity is always a good idea!
• Controlling an unbound Spirit is treated as Sustaining a Spell of the same Level (-2 Modifier, compensatable by Drugs, Qualities etc.)
• Controlling a bound Spirit doesn´t incur a modifier - that´s why you bind them. However, a mage can control a number of 1+Initiation Grade Spirits at once, bound or unbound.
• "Spirit abusers" should be treated by their minions as malignant and unkind as possible: Only doing the bare minimum, deliberately interpreting orders in unfavorable ways etc.

That's not bad. I especially like the "summoning hotspot."

[Plastic-Man]

it's pretty clear that without GM fiat the rules for binding, as written, are broken/ open to abuse/ not balanced (take your pick).

This depends on your definition of "broken/open to abuse/not balanced" means.
What is "broken"?

Well all your questions can be answer by applying a bit of common sense.

If you threw equally skilled players with different archetypes at various scenarios and have them take care of it as best they can and everyone notices that one of those archetypes invalidates others as well as breezing through the scenario's then a bit of common sense would tell you it's imbalanced.

[Reaver]

it's pretty clear that without GM fiat the rules for binding, as written, are broken/ open to abuse/ not balanced (take your pick).

This depends on your definition of "broken/open to abuse/not balanced" means.
What is "broken"?

Well all your questions can be answer by applying a bit of common sense.

If you threw equally skilled players with different archetypes at various scenarios and have them take care of it as best they can and everyone notices that one of those archetypes invalidates others as well as breezing through the scenario's then a bit of common sense would tell you it's imbalanced.

And yet, what you are implying just hasn't happened to any great degree from what we can see.... of all the people that have responded, what? Two people have had to deal with a "spirit army of doom" - and thst includes ME!

This is just not something that happens that often. Yes I agree it could happen. But an astroid could crash into tge planet today and kill us all too...

And, its not really that different from the hosts that Riggers and technos can employ as well. That their swarms don't cost $500 for every command you issue, nor do they expire after  a set amount of commands.

But like I and others have said, all it does is give an 'option' to the players. Its up to them if they want to go that route. With all it entails.

[Mathan]

You know, I read this whole thread out of curiosity and ultimately had to laugh about it.

Because at the end of the day, one thing is true. If you abuse rules to cheese out nonsense and make the game not fun, the GM will fiat or BS a way to smash your character into the dirt. Hopefully with a skyscraper sized pair of golf cleats.

Can you bind an army of spirits to do all the grunt work for you? Sure. In a vacuum. And the second you screw up or you make it clear you're just breaking the game for a power trip, along comes an NPC doing the same thing. Or the spirits rebel, Or someone hits you with a tranq dart and dumps your spirit focused character in the middle of Denver in the wrong gang outfit.

I say this for one simple reason. This aversion to the GM doing his or her job is silly. The RAW are the start of things. The start, not the end The GM is, and should be, the final arbiter. If said GM is under the foolish and mistaken impression that the players are the enemy, then by all means leave the table If the player does not like their cheese getting stomped so that other people have fun too? Then by all means leave the table.

Yes, spirits are a bit more powerful in a vacuum. A creative GM can use the tools at hand easily to nerf that with situational shfits, but yes spirits can be very useful and very dangerous. But you're playing a game where corps employ people with the same summoning powers as you. A game where Thor strikes are a thing, and where dragons who can likely shrug off thor strikes are also a thing. Putting aside all of the other balance tools in play, part of being a Shadowrunner is that you have to be careful about making waves. I.E. anything that makes you too OP or that the GM feels is stealing the thunder of the other characters. Because when you make waves the major players out there are willing and able to take you down a peg, and much like the Lady of Pain some of them aren't statted!

There is just so much wrong here. The presumption that the book trumps the GM, the clear bias that something is 'unfair' while only looking at it in a vacuum, and the silly delusion that you can have real game balance in a Pen and Paper game. Yes, you need to get things more in line so that there isn't just one thing to do and everything else would be silly and pointless. But this isn't a rigid video game. This isn't some stupid multiplayer online shooter where the point is to prove your pointless validation. It's a co-operative story.

And frankly, as a GM? That summoning a whole host of spirits to do all the hard work thing would likely fly exactly once. Maybe. After that I'd just rule the next time it was used they inadvertently caught the eye of some ant spirit colony setting up. That the ants fragged the summoned spirits and now the summoners rep is absolute trash in the spirit community. Meaning the one trick of the one trick pony no longer works and a whole host of nasties are out for the players blood.

Why? Because the GM is the world. Seek to have fun and cooperate and play your character and you can have the world. Seek to be a dick, and watch your minmaxed number crunching fall to the world saying no.