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How do I fix Riggers?

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Finstersang

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« Reply #30 on: <08-02-18/1455:39> »
Wouldn't allowing Commlink Dongles (hello Stealth Dongle!) and running Smoke-n-Mirrors suffice for concealment, though? That way you don't fully cripple yourself to get Sleaze, you just pay cash and sacrifice a program slot.

I guess a Dongle would suffice, but I think that RCCs canŽt have Dongles RAW. One might as well houserule it that way, though. Smoke-n-Mirrors is questionable, too: You can modify the RCC to get Sleaze 1 and then ask the GM if your RCC can load the programm. I guess IŽd allow both.

However, in both cases, youŽd have make an additional investment to get an "active" Sleaze rating that you can also use for Hacking Action. The "Concealment" Attribute is strictly meant for defensive tests - which are important for stealthy riggers. 

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #31 on: <08-02-18/1555:31> »
Well,

"A rigger command console, or RCC, is like a deck for controlling drones (or other vehicles and devices). It’s about the size of a briefcase. It can act like a commlink and has all the features of a commlink in addition to the cool drone stuff." p.266 core

That arguably includes being able to connect dongles

talk think matrix

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #32 on: <08-02-18/1602:57> »
And sure, they stated commlink stuff are for commlink only but it's not a deck but an rcc so can be allowed by gm. And running Smoke-n-Mirrors is perfectly ok since rccs can run all cyberprograms (not Agents but those are a different category of programs). It's what my Rigger players all ran.

And yes it's an active investment but it is by far superior to completely killing your sharing ability.
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Baby Rigger

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« Reply #33 on: <08-02-18/1820:11> »
Yeah allowing RCCs to use dongles would be  very simple thing to house rule . same price and stats only you cant use a rcc dongle on a comlink and vise-versa .

Seras

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« Reply #34 on: <08-08-18/1445:47> »
@ Michael.

Forgive me, but what exactly is the problem ? What type of rigger is she playing ? One big kitted out drone , lots of small ones ?

Is she a combat rigger or a support, Spy character ?

So far the only thing I caught is that she cannot catch the enemy with her drones even though they are on foot...

Could you give some ingame exsamples of what went wrong ?

I have found that riggers rule some games and totally stink in others. Riggers, more than any other class perhaps, need the right tool for the right job.

I apologise for my posts beeing weird to read, I am fluent in english, but almost never write in english anymore :-(

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #35 on: <08-08-18/1454:12> »
She is outrun and outgunned by the pc mages and their spirit armies, plus the rules are vague.
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Seras

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« Reply #36 on: <08-08-18/1500:42> »
She is outrun and outgunned by the pc mages and their spirit armies, plus the rules are vague.

Thanks !

I can work with that, I think I have some ideas, I need to check my notes and books I will get back to you tomorrow

If it does not work out, would she play a different charakter class ?


I apologise for my posts beeing weird to read, I am fluent in english, but almost never write in english anymore :-(

Seras

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« Reply #37 on: <08-13-18/1441:45> »
Sorry for the late reply. Work was hell and I had a tooth pulled :(

I went trough my notes and looked at the 2 or 3 shadowrun missions I own, since I recall this is you're prefered playstyle.

Things I have noted:

Deckers and Riggers are a support class much like a face. They shine at stealth, espionage and B and E adventures

Against sams, adepts and mages they do inferior in combat.

Similary Sams, Adepts and mages are superior in strong arm tactics. Combat adventures heavily favour them.

My two cents for you and your wife. Focus on the strength of riggers more. Increase magical security and I strong backround count because of sour rain or a toxic mishap
( Street magic on page  32 clearly states that dual natured beeings like spirits suffer a negativ modifer equal to the backround count ON ALL THEIR ACTIONS )

This will make her drones much more needed and essential to the plot.

The same applies to the classic Datasteal. Spirits cannot record anything or copy a file. Drones can.
I apologise for my posts beeing weird to read, I am fluent in english, but almost never write in english anymore :-(

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #38 on: <08-13-18/1518:09> »
Yeah, pulling a Rating 4 Background Count sure scared the mages. ^_^ I like the Datasteal idea, that's a good one.
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Seras

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« Reply #39 on: <08-13-18/1536:14> »
Glad to hear it worked out ! :)
I apologise for my posts beeing weird to read, I am fluent in english, but almost never write in english anymore :-(

Mirikon

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« Reply #40 on: <08-15-18/1506:33> »
Late to the party, but yes, trying to have a rigger and drones stack up against a mage and their spirits in combat is like trying to get a Face to stack up against a Street Sammy. So long as they aren't dead weight, and can at least defend themselves a little, you're already calling this a win. A man with either a couple armed and armored drones or a swarm of lightly-armed drones against a mage (with their magic) and spirits who can go through walls to attack people from behind, and are immune to normal weapons... there's no way you're going to make that fly without turning Riggers into gods or nerfing Mages to the point where they're worse than TMs.

So start off with the simple question of: What is a Rigger good for? Sounds snarky, but hear me out. List the things a rigger does well, and compare them to a mage and their spirits in that category.

Transport: One of the more overlooked areas for riggers, since everyone focuses on drones, but being able to get the team to and from the gig, sometimes passing through or avoiding security checkpoints, and often under fire, is no small thing. I mention this first because it is the one area where no mage even comes close.

Tech Support: More the hardware side of things, but a Rigger and their drones are able to interact with technology much more easily than spirits can. You need to get a tap on a line on the roof so the hacker can get access to the building's network? You got three options, really. Have an Infiltrator get up there somehow to plant the tap, have a spirit fly up there to plant the tap, or have a rigger get a drone to plant the tap. Of these, the only two that are any good at it would be the infiltrator and the rigger. The spirit can't hop planes holding the physical module to tap the line, and because they have trouble with tech in general, the mage would have to project and manifest with them to tell them what to do, assuming the mage has the knowledge necessary (big assumption). A rigger jumps into their drone, and plants the device just where it needs to be, because they know what they're doing.

Overwatch: Sure, a mage with their spirits can be invaluable at watching over a scene, but they are still babes in the woods compared to a Rigger who becomes the building, or has several drones disguised as advertisements (possibly even broadcasting real advertisements) watching over the situation. And when some of those drones are armed with sniper rifles... But even better than what you get with a spirit is that the Rigger can share tactical data in real time, without playing 'telephone' and interpreting what a spirit saw from what they said, and then telling it to the team. You can send an alert to everyone's HUD, letting them know what you're watching, or sharing footage so they can see for themselves, and plan accordingly.

Mobile Support: Going on with some of the earlier points, there are few better for providing mobile support than a rigger with a few drones loaded for bear. Since drones basically live or die by speed and maneuverability, keeping them moving is important, but something as simple as a Steel Lynx, driving alongside your van, turning to fire the underbarrel grenade launcher on the rifle you put on its rifle while you are trying to escape can do a lot, without exposing your team (who may or may not already be wounded) to return fire. Sure, a spirit COULD attack a vehicle in passing, but would they be able to launch a slick grenade to explode on a tight turn, sending vehicles into a crash? I think not. And if the mage is already beat up, he might not have it in him for an Ice Slick, or he'd be out for the rest of the run, when you might need him more, later on.

Kamikaze: Sending people or spirits on suicide attacks tends to make you massively unpopular. Drones, on the other hand, are relatively cheap, and can carry a payload somewhere that people will not appreciate it, with minimal risk to the group sending it. Especially nice for those times you have to play with WMD.


So that's what a rigger is GOOD at. Now let's talk combat. Because combat will happen.

DON'T: Get in a standing firefight. Sitting still for drones is a death sentence, like hovering in a helicopter when the other team has AAA weapons.
DO: Keep moving. Cover is your friend. And you have more recoil compensation as a drone than a person normally has as a metahuman. Use that. Cover to cover, with burst fire to reduce defense...
DON'T: Try to win combat by yourself. You will fail.
DO: Focus on how you can get your team an advantage. Covering fire while they try to get through a position, flanking a position to fire from a new angle, and so on.
DON'T: Go toe to toe with combat monsters. You will fail.
DO: Cheat. No defense test on attacks you're unaware of. Sniper rifles on drones are just as fun to deal with as snipers themselves.

A rigger in combat should focus on getting out of combat as fast as possible.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #41 on: <08-15-18/1609:45> »
While I appreciate all the advice, it doesn't solve the problems I mentioned before: That Speed for drones and vehicles is so fucked that even under nerfed Movement, a Channeling mage easily outruns all the drones, that the rules are extremely unclear as to what dice bonuses you get when, and that the incoming errata for Riggers are madness.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #42 on: <08-15-18/1634:48> »
While I appreciate all the advice, it doesn't solve the problems I mentioned before: That Speed for drones and vehicles is so fucked that even under nerfed Movement, a Channeling mage easily outruns all the drones, that the rules are extremely unclear as to what dice bonuses you get when, and that the incoming errata for Riggers are madness.
A Channeling mage can certainly outrun the drones. But that's a specific mage/spirit power set that is of very situational use. Sure, a mage using magic to make themselves fast as hell will outrun a drone in a dead sprint, in open fields or on the highway. Trying to outrun a speedster is like trying to out-bulk a troll. What you need to do is play the old D&D game of targeting their weak save. Well, not a save, in this case, but finding the weak point in what they do.

Running very fast is not extremely useful inside a building, especially when you're outrunning your team. Not even counting running into a Ward and having it ring your bell, but any decent security checkpoint will not be something you can just run through at speed. And if they come across the cleaning crew mopping floors while running at speed, it would be bad, to say nothing of a security line that either has happy fun microwire across the hallway, or more tame beams that will set off alarms...

If your problem is mages moving insanely fast, get with someone who plays Superhero games, and ask them how they would take on a speedster. Hell, just go to the comic shop and ask people how they'd take on Flash (without getting someone like Reverse Flash to do it).
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Rooks

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« Reply #43 on: <08-22-18/0110:37> »
Get a RCC Vulcan Liegelord   66000

Electronic parts 10   2000
Modification Add Attribute Sleaze   
Get Autosofts
Maneuvering 5   2500
Stealth 5   2500
Targeting Colt M23 5   2500
Electronic Warfare 5   2500
Swarm 600
Get programs
Virtual Machine   80
Smoke and Mirrors   250

Buy drones
Transys Maid   8000
Armor up Drones
Armored Jacket   1000
Gel Packs   1500
Nonconductivity 6   1500
Colt M23   550
Gas-vent system 3   600
Sling   15
Foregrip   100
Gecko grip   100
Smartgun system, external   200
Extended clip   35
Arms Kit +1   250
Legs Kit +1   300
Helmet +2   100

for 15k you have a drone with armor and a gun

Get a Universe Van (30k) seat all you drones inside

Drive up to the place unleash drone army

for added benefit

Cyber programs   8800
Attack dongle rating 4 48000

You now have Attack 4 Data Processing 5 Firewall 6 Sleaze 1-6 cyber deck for less and 5 slots for programs

Added bonus: buy whatever autosoft you want and the 15 drones you now have 5+5+14 dice pool to do whatever you want

Bonus Swap the Colt with AK98 both in guns and autosoft add burst link
« Last Edit: <08-22-18/0118:04> by Rooks »