[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I'm pretty sure I know the consensus on this, but I'm curious to walk it through anyway.

Shiva arms (RF pg 118) gives you an extra pair (or two!) of arms, and the text says basically you can use the multiple attack option in SR core (pg 196) that everyone can already use.  However it does also explicitly say you can "wield" melee and firearm weapons simultaneously.  More on this later.

The Multiple Attack free action allows you to attack multiple people with what's implicitly one attack.  The example in the sidebar demonstrates an unarmed attack and the rules don't address the possibility of making a Multiple Attack via multiple weapons: a multiple attack splits one dice pool up.

So what to make of say, making multiple attacks with different weapons?  Say a Knife and an offhand punch or a kick?  Doesn't appear possible under the Multiple Attack rules.  The expanded combat actions section in RG doesn't provide a means to make multiple attacks with different weapons, either.  Absence doesn't necessarily mean anything, but in this particular case it may well be true that if The Powers That Be intended for it to be possible to make Multiple Attacks with disparate weapons this would have been the place it would be.  RG does provide an avenue for the ever popular "Dual Wield" combat style in the martial arts via the Two-Weapon Style Attack.  You can use two weapons, and they don't even have to be identical weapons.  However they do implicitly have to be governed by the same skill (blades or clubs) as the two weapons are "merged" into one weapon for one attack roll.  Therefore can't work with a club in one hand and a blade in the other hand.

So going back to Shiva Arms letting you explicitly "wield" different kinds of weapons in your many arms.  If a Narataki has a stun baton in one hand, a sword in another, and an Assault rifle in the remaining two hands and quite naturally wants to make a Multiple Attack, how is it handled?  (let's presume the character bought Ambidexterity 3 times so that there's no off hand complications).

Attempting a melee and a firearms attack simultaneously just can't combine dice pools.  But where every other "multiple attack" option boils it down into one dice pool, how do you do that in the case of Shiva arms?  It's a quality specific corner case, but the quality doesn't address it other than saying it's possible to get the effect.  So what do you do, just split agility between the attacks and then split skill dice between the attacks the skill governs?  E.G. If a Shiva arm PC wants to make 4 knife attacks, obviously you split agility and blades between 4 attacks.  What about 2 knife attacks and 2 pistol attacks?  It's got to be pistol dice between 2 attacks, blades dice between 2 attacks, and agility between 4 attacks, right?

But if so, then obviously it serves the player's interest to make 4 attacks with 4 different skills so that only AGI is split, isn't it?  (Stun baton in one hand, sword in the second, a pistol attack in the 3rd, and an unarmed attack with the 4th). 

If it doesn't work that way, then what's the point of Shiva arms at all if you can't wield multiple weapons?  Or does "wield" not necessarily imply anything beyond holding it in your many hands?  1 complex action still only generates 1 attack.  In order to get multiple attacks, even a Shiva arm must use weapons governed by the same skill?

[Nelphine]

It's a house rule, but I interpret it as 'take the dice pool you would use for a given attack and divide it by the number of attacks you are making.

So if you have 2 pistols, 2 arms, and attack with both, then you look at each pistol separately:
the first one gets (agility + pistols) /2
The second one gets (agility + pistols) /2

In your example of a stun baton, a katana, and an assault rifle, you get:
(Agility + clubs) /3
(Agility + blades) /3
(Agility + automatics) /3

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

That's pretty elegant to just do a division rather than allotting dice.  It takes away some flexibility to favor one attack with more dice than another, but in exchange it allows for multiple attacks with multiple skills.

Would you do it differently if the example were three attacks all on the same target?  For example the Martial Arts technique that lets you use two weapons on the same target doesn't grant you two attacks, it just creates a gestalt attack incorporating both weapons for one test.

[firebug]

You couldn't do multiple attacks on the same target, so I don't think there'd be an answer.

For the record, the rules do suggest you simply cannot use different weapon skills when making multiple attacks.  Though I know that's kind of useless to say, as it just changes the thread to "what would work as a house rule to do it".  Nelphine's suggestion is probably the best and most rules-accurate way to do it, though.

[Nelphine]

I actually take my house rules a step further and allow multiple attacks against the same target. Since I do division without allowing allocating to make one attack more accurate, there's a much better chance of missing entirely. That balances the extra base damage.

I'm sure there's multiple reasons for not allowing multiple attacks against the same target, but until some other more coherent rule allows attacking with multiple types of weapons (especially ones without burst fire) against the same target, I think it needs to be permissible.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

You couldn't do multiple attacks on the same target, so I don't think there'd be an answer.

For the record, the rules do suggest you simply cannot use different weapon skills when making multiple attacks.  Though I know that's kind of useless to say, as it just changes the thread to "what would work as a house rule to do it".  Nelphine's suggestion is probably the best and most rules-accurate way to do it, though.

I'm with ya, but specific trumps general and the Shiva arms explicitly lets you simultaneously "wield" firearms and melee weapons.  Now what "wield" actually covers, that's the rub.  Doesn't make much sense to say that you can't attack with something you are wielding.. but you're right outside this exception the larger implication of the rules is you're simply never allowed to use different weapon skills when making multiple attacks.  Arguably, the examples I gave upthread would have allowed for it if it were ever to be (generally) allowed.

But again specific trumps general, and that one choice of word in "wield" for Shiva arms casts a lot of uncertainty as to what it's functionally allowing.  I'd argue that a strict RAW reading lets you split your skill between attacks governed by that skill, and then of course the min/max thing to do is make sure you're only ever using one attack per skill so you split each skill dice pool one way.  But obviously that's egregiously unbalanced compared to what other sorts of multiple attacks and multiple weapon per attack options are out there. 

I suppose on one hand you can just tell a Narataki's player that the rules allow using multiple weapons to attack multiple targets but they do not allow using multiple weapons to attack a single target.  I think I like adapting the martial arts two weapon style as a karma-free ability to the Shiva arms, and remove the restriction that the weapons all have to use the same skill to boot.  Probably +1DV or -1 defense test die per weapon employed after the first is simple and in the spirit of the other SR rules.

[Marcus]

hmmm i totally thought you could multi attack with different weapons.
I guess i need to go re-read that section a couple times.

[ShadowcatX]

Wield doesn't mean anything beyond carrying ready for use. A human can wield a pistol in one hand and a knife in the other but only attack with one or the other. They can switch between the two without having to draw a weapon though.

I believe 4th edition, when you were splitting different dice pools for attacks, had you split the smallest dice pool.

[PiXeL01]

If you allowed a Shiva to do both types of attacks you essentially allow them to use two different attack actions which total more than one Complex action. Melee attack by itself is a Complex Action while shooting a weapon is either a Simple or Complex action depending on how you shoot, so you simply don’t have actions for both. Multi-Attack is a Free action you need to take in addition to another attack action, but instead of it, so it’s actually not an issue.

As for attack using multiple types of weapons if simply use and split the lowest pool

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I follow what you're saying about the multiple attack types using more actions than regular action economy allows... But if the Shiva arms don't allow you to attack simultaneously with a firearm and a melee weapon, then what mechanical benefit does the quality actually bestow?  Getting what amounts to a 15=Y= sling for a firearm for free is in no way worth an 8 karma cost quality.

[ShadowcatX]

Not everything has to be mechanically great, it is perfectly ok for some things to be just for fun.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Not everything has to be mechanically great, it is perfectly ok for some things to be just for fun.

I understand the sentiment, but I'm not sure I agree.  Something "worth" 8 Karma better be worth 8 karma from a game balance POV.

If "wield" is to mean nothing more than carry, then there's really no benefit I'm seeing to Shiva arms other than the aforementioned 15 nuyen value for 8 Karma.  That's not good design.  I'd think this reason suggests "wield" should mean the common RPG understanding of "attacking with".

[PiXeL01]

Nothing is stopping you from using four guns or four melee weapons simultaneously.
Exceptional skill/attribute is 15 karma but I would say being able to attack using two modes of attack is worth more than even that.

[ShadowcatX]

Not everything has to be mechanically great, it is perfectly ok for some things to be just for fun.

I understand the sentiment, but I'm not sure I agree.  Something "worth" 8 Karma better be worth 8 karma from a game balance POV.

If "wield" is to mean nothing more than carry, then there's really no benefit I'm seeing to Shiva arms other than the aforementioned 15 nuyen value for 8 Karma.  That's not good design.  I'd think this reason suggests "wield" should mean the common RPG understanding of "attacking with".

You are free to disagree all you want. Truth is, it isn't possible to balance everything in Shadowrun, and another truth is options, especially ones which create diversity are good, even if they are mechanically bad.

And 8 karma isn't going to make or break a build by any means. That's 1% of a karma build.

[Marcus]

Not everything has to be mechanically great, it is perfectly ok for some things to be just for fun.

I believe that is a very reasonable point, that is often over looked.
Now going with that can get you trouble but with warning ahead of time, maybe give it a try and if turns out to be to far over the line, then step it back to reasonable land.