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Commanding Voice and modifiers

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Marcus

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« Reply #15 on: <10-12-18/1555:05> »
I don’t agree at all. Limit is 100% critical. Limit magic would lock most characters into a limit of 6. Adept have no reason to raise magic. You don’t change limit when you use improved ability or increased attribute, you use the skill related real limit. Until someone shows me in a book the formula for magic limit I maintain it doesn’t exist. Any reference using it should be correct to real and appropriate limit.
« Last Edit: <10-12-18/1953:20> by Marcus »
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Reaver

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« Reply #16 on: <10-12-18/1729:07> »
I'm not saying that magic is the limit in this case. Just that when in doubt, using magic as the limit (if a limit is needed, as one is not always called for) if pretty standard for adepts.

Adepts can't have more ranks in a power then their magic rating.
Several Adept Powers limit net hits to Magic. (like wall climbing as mentioned above)

BUT:

Under limits in the CRB it does only mention the Physical, Mental and Social limits only.... And any way you slice it, this is a social test...
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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #17 on: <10-12-18/1741:21> »
Limits are chosen by the skill they are used with. Magic is not a general inherent limit. Mages use either Astral (for stuff done on the Astral and which is just the higher of Mental or Social) or Force. Neither apply to adepts.
Adepts generally channel their magic through their bodies (hence why they where called Phys-adepts) and use one of the three mundane Limits.

Wall Running is deviating from the norm, that's why it's calling out specifically the use of Magic as it's limit. The lack of such a call out on Commanding Voice does not imply that it uses Magic but rather the opposite.
Voice Control for example is calling out Mental as a limit with a social skill. By your logic I could declare Mental as the limit for Commanding Voice because it is used with a social skill but enables a new way to apply the skill.

The Leadership skill has no means of “submilinally influencing the actions of any listeners”.  It certainly has no ability to influence the actions those you don’t have a preexisting relationship with - that falls under Con, Negotiation, or Intimidate.  In short, it’s a new capability, not an enhancement to an existing use of Leadership.  Plus, you’re referring to the flavor text before the actual rule mechanics for Commanding Voice are listed.

Also you might want to reread the Leadership skill entry (p. 141 core)
"The Leadership skill is about coaxing, convincing, threatening, or challenging your subordinates, or getting people to accept you as a superior."
« Last Edit: <10-12-18/1743:30> by Jack_Spade »
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #18 on: <10-12-18/1929:12> »
Okay, since we’re talking about Rules As Written as well as Rules As Intended, I’m going to ask for a rules citation on “A Social Skill Test is any test which uses a Social Skill”.

Because it is a "Test" that uses a "Social Skill" aka: Social Skill Test. Note I am differentiating between a "Social Test" and a "Social Skill Test" here. A Test is any roll made to see how well something happens (Core, pg 44-49), a Skill Test is a test that uses a skill, and therefore a Social Skill Test is one using a Social Skill (as categorized in the Skills chapter).

A Social Test, on the other hand is mentioned in the description of Social Skills (page 138),
Code: [Select]
The Social Test should
come either at the end of a well-role-played scene to
wrap it up, or in place of a social situation that would be
less interesting to actually play through to get through it
quickly.



It can be shown this isn’t always the case, since the Substituting Skills sidebar allows you to do things like substituting an Active skill for a Knowledge skill (the example given is using Pistols skill at a penalty to see if you know where the closest Ares Predator V manufacturer is).
 
In the case of skills substitution, I would argue that using another skill in place of the intended skill wouldn't change the type of test that it is. To use one of those examples: Using Artisan instead of Disguise does not alter the test itself. It is still a Disguise Test. Same for using Pistols as a Knowledge, now you are making a Knowledge Test, so bonuses that only apply to Physical Tests don't apply, and likewise, bonuses that would apply to Knowledge Tests would. Nevertheless, skill substitution isn't applicable here, Commanding Voice doesn't let someone use a different skill in place of something else.

As mentioned earlier, that argument leads to using the Perception modifiers table for adept powers like Motion Sense and Three Dimensional Memory, simply because Perception is used to form the dice pool.  Should smoke or glare affect your ability to sense motion as an adept, or adjust your ability to know the location of an Ares manufacturer?  The same argument applies to using Social Modifiers for Commanding Voice.[/size]

You only use Visibility modifiers that apply to the given situation. You wouldn't apply glare or smoke penalties to a hearing test for example. And the Visibility modifiers only apply to the combat skills when you are using them to make attacks (they are referenced as part of the combat rules), so they wouldn't apply in non-combat tests anyway.

The real question this boils down to is this: Is Commanding Voice a Social Test? If it is, then it would be reasonable to assume that Social Modifiers would apply. Now, since a Social Test was referred to as the test which represents the results of a social situation ("...a well-role-played scene ... or in place of a social situation that would be
less interesting...") it can be argued that it isn't. This is, after all, a single action that instantly works, not a back-and-forth social discourse.

On the other hand, the argument can also be made that the Social Modifiers apply whenever you are using a Social skill to Influence someone, which this is. Leadership is a Social skill, and you are using it to influence the action of someone else. This is not a case where we are using a skill in place of something else, Commanding Voice just lets you use Leadership in a somewhat non-standard way. The only inconsistency is trying to use it on a group, which is easily waived as specific trumps general.