[Xenon]

@xenon: those quotes aren't quite saying what you're saying they say.

Actually, I am pretty sure they are talking about local storage.
Are you sure this is something you want to debate??


"stored on your deck" == "locally stored on your deck"
"stored on your deck" <> "stored in the matrix"

"all of it fits on your commlink" == "all of it fits locally on your commlink"
"all of it fits on your commlink" <> "all of it fits in the matrix"

"every device on the Matrix has a massive amount of storage space" == "devices may store their files locally"
"every device on the Matrix has a massive amount of storage space" <> "devices only use the matrix to store their files"

"Your gamemaster might decide that a device is too small or low-grade or a file so massively large that a problem comes up, but such problems are extremely rare. Even if it does, the entire world is wireless, so you shouldn’t have trouble finding an alternate storage location."
== "if it doesn't locally fit on the device (this is rare) then you can probably find an alternative on-line storage location."
<> "files no matter sizes will never fit locally and must always be stored in an alternative on-line storage location"

"a program you have stored on your deck" == "a program stored locally on your deck"
"a program you have stored on your deck" <> "a program stored in the matrix"

"if you have something to store it on (your deck will do)." == "you may store it locally on your deck"
"if you have something to store it on (your deck will do)." <> "even if you have a device you must still store it in the matrix"


"Since your living persona is just a persona, not a device, you don’t have any onboard storage; this is easy enough to deal with because you can store files in nearby devices."
== "devices have local storage space, but if you don't have a device then you may also store things on the matrix"
<> "devices have no local storage space - even if you have a device you must still store things on the matrix"

...but I still think that was the intent. 

Every device in SR5 have massive amount of [local] storage space, unthinkable amounts by early 21st century standards.

If you don't have any devices at all (maybe because you are a TM) you may still store files [locally] in nearby devices.

[Jayde Moon]

That is easy.

Easy enough, but doesn't actually address what I was asking for.  I'm not denying that the Matrix is the worldwide... etc.

I'm asking where it says this is the ONLY way it can be the Matrix, thus eliminating any other computer network, real or imagined, as a system that can be hacked.

Again, I concede that the RAW indicates that there is no way to perform Attack or Sleaze actions without accruing a GOD score.  The strictest interpretations of the rules are pretty cut and dried.

By not allowing for any other network to create a Matrix, you pretty much invalidate previous canon and remove the capacity for someone, anyone, to develop internal networks.

I mean, you're telling me that if I turn the wireless function off on my commlink, or enter a location with enough noise that my commlink can't connect, I can't find files on my commlink (Matrix Action: Matrix Search) or open a text editor and make a shopping list (Matrix Action: Edit File).

A little common sense applied here tells me it's unlikely that the intent isn't that you can't access local content or functionality on a device just because it's not connected to the greater WWW.

In this case, SSDR, I'm just uttering my personal opinion.  We won't restrict this in Missions for now... unless it's starting to cause jarring inconsistencies in how games are being run.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

*in response to Xenon*

Sounds compelling.... if you can also explain why Cloudless exists.

OTOH "on your device" can just be shorthand for "accessible on your device". 

A) it actually jives with the rule that matrix connectivity is required for matrix actions

B) it gives a reason for Megas to actually have their canonical data storage services... as opposed to questioning why they do exist if every device has nigh-infinite storage locally.

C) I'm not on board with the idea that you're meant to be able to bypass the entire OS mechanic by turning devices wireless-off.

[Michael Chandra]

The line you're likely looking for is, "Performing this test requires access to the Matrix" from Data Trails (p. 169).  While it should have been better written, it is meant to clarify that the device that is undergoing the change needs to be on the Matrix for the duration of the test.  (Source: I wrote the poorly-written sentence.)

No perhaps about it. It was clarified by writers to require being online. But that was about 5 years ago, so is proving too tricky for me to find. All I found was people echoing the statement without a direct link to the original.

The rulebook does explicitly state it's also registered in the Grids, though.

Ah right, I forgot that Data Trails decided to settle that bit with an explicit line, better than the core 'it's in the grids' line.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

By not allowing for any other network to create a Matrix, you pretty much invalidate previous canon and remove the capacity for someone, anyone, to develop internal networks.

I mean, you're telling me that if I turn the wireless function off on my commlink, or enter a location with enough noise that my commlink can't connect, I can't find files on my commlink (Matrix Action: Matrix Search) or open a text editor and make a shopping list (Matrix Action: Edit File).

Now you are understanding one of my biggest gripes with the 5e rules, and why I have stated that the entire technology section of 5e has to be reviewed and much of it needs to be rewritten.

And for clarity, here is Xenon's reply.

[Jayde Moon]

C) I'm not on board with the idea that you're meant to be able to bypass the entire OS mechanic by turning devices wireless-off.

Well, let's be real, in practice, this would be either rare or of fairly limited impact.

You have to direct connect and no part of the network that the device you are hacking can be exposed to the greater wireless network.

If it's a standard device, you have to take physical possession.  If it's a device that you have in your physical possession, the danger posed by GOD on your attempt to access and/or manipulate the device is practically negligible.

If it's an internal corporate network, you have to get that decker physically to the hardware.  No wireless data tap, cause now it's wireless.

Instead of making the OS irrelevant, it opens additional storytelling possibilities and dramatic elements.

[Jayde Moon]

By not allowing for any other network to create a Matrix, you pretty much invalidate previous canon and remove the capacity for someone, anyone, to develop internal networks.

I mean, you're telling me that if I turn the wireless function off on my commlink, or enter a location with enough noise that my commlink can't connect, I can't find files on my commlink (Matrix Action: Matrix Search) or open a text editor and make a shopping list (Matrix Action: Edit File).

Now you are understanding one of my biggest gripes with the 5e rules, and why I have stated that the entire technology section of 5e has to be reviewed and much of it needs to be rewritten.

And for clarity, here is Xenon's reply.

Even the most meticulously playtest and edited games will have inconsistencies, needs for clarifications, and holes.

Developers have an idea of what they're trying to communicate and try to be as thorough as possible and then players get their hands on it and break it.

There's also a question of what the writer's presume players will take for granted and so they don't 'waste' the words codifying it.

And some of that is why practically every RPG core has a paragraph telling the GM that the only unbreakable rule is that there are no unbreakable rules.

Now, a lot of us have a hard time getting away from what's written in black and white, text on the page...

But sometimes, you just have to extrapolate for yourself how something works when the rules seem to support something that makes absolutely no sense.

Saying you can't perform Matrix Actions unless you are connected to the greater wireless network and that's the ONLY WAY is a draconian interpretation of the RAW that unnecessarily restricts GMs and players.

In my mind, Matrix is meant to be the Shadowrun word for 'network that you can access via DNI'.  There's the greater Matrix which is, by default, what everyone is referring to when they say 'The Matrix'... but there can be standalone networks and there's no reason you can't get on them.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

Saying you can't perform Matrix Actions unless you are connected to the greater wireless network and that's the ONLY WAY is a draconian interpretation of the RAW that unnecessarily restricts GMs and players.

I don't disagree with you.

However, when someone asks for a rules question the people responding have to give RAW, and then maybe their personal opinion.  As I did in my reply to Raizen.

Now, if Raizen chooses to ignore RAW and rule otherwise, I support him/her fully.  And that goes beyond my belief that s/he has every right to rule as they see fit in their game.  I actually support the idea that all Matrix Actions can't be performed without access to the Matrix (as a whole) is too restrictive.

Unless, and until, there is clarification made...  That just isn't RAW.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

...
 I actually support the idea that all Matrix Actions can't be performed without access to the Matrix (as a whole) is too restrictive.

Unless, and until, there is clarification made...  That just isn't RAW.

I can agree with this as well.  I could support a "rule of thumb"/house rule that matrix actions that don't generate an Overwatch Score can be performed without "any Matrix".  But anything that does generate an OS must work in some way via the "Matrix at large" or else there couldn't BE an Overwatch Score.  It's self proving.

[Xenon]

In the rare events that you for some reason end up in a Faraday cage, wireless static zone, in such a remote location that there is no matrix access is possible unless you have a satellite link or if you manually turn off your wireless connection in your commlink...

(until the Errata team is done with Jammers the above are probably the only four situations where your commlink does not have access to the matrix)

...I would find it plausible that by 2075 you simply cannot use matrix actions with your commlink until it can connect to the matrix again (because if you can't get on-line then you also cannot authenticate that you are the owner of your commlink or whatever).

... but there can be standalone networks and there's no reason you can't get on them.

Standalone wired networks are described in SR5 p. 360 Wired Security.

And there seems to be [at least] two ways you can get on a wired network.

Either you connect a data tap directly to universal data connector of the device (or you attach it to the cable the device is wired with) and turn the data tap wireless on. Then you just hack the device remotely over the matrix as normal. While hacking it wireless like this it will not count as having a direct connection, but since it is a wireless disabled device it will not be slaved to a Host anyway (they only exists in the Matrix - unless Kill Code change it). Great for Technomancers that doesn't have the Skin Link echo yet (and probably the biggest reason why the Technomancer archetype on SR5 p. 122 have one). The technomancer is still connected to the matrix so she will have access to matrix action (and her illegal attack and sleaze action will still cause overwatch score) even though she is hacking a stand-alone device or a wired network.

Or you connect a cable between your wireless enabled cyberdeck and the wireless disabled device or to a data tap attached to the cable the device is wired with (or physically touch it if you are a Technomancer with the Skin Link Echo and a Living Persona). In this case it will count as if you are directly connected to the device (or both devices if connected to the cable), and may ignore any master device ratings in case it is slaved to the device in the other end of the wire. The decker is still connected to the matrix so he will have access to matrix action (and his illegal attack and sleaze action will still cause overwatch score) even though he is hacking a a stand-alone device or a wired network.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

With regards to being inside a Faraday Cage:  yeah, I actually would argue that technically/by RAW your commlink's got "no Matrix" and therefore no Matrix Actions are possible.  Even if you directly connect it to another device that is also within the same Faraday cage.

With regards to being unable to use your Commlink due to remote location: Completely plausible.  Again, because I envision some/many/most files "on your commlink" are really just shortcuts to the data actually being stored in some Data Farm.  What's available "on your commlink" and what isn't when your commlink doesn't have "any Matrix" is in my view similar to what Jayde Moon's been saying: it's up to the GM.  If the GM wants you to have the file in question, it's there in a form of RAM analogue.  If not, it's not and can't be accessed at the Renraku Server Farm until you reconnect with the Matrix.

No Matrix access due to remote location, pt 2: Not only is this something that can happen IRL, I don't see why it wouldn't happen in Shadowrun.  The Sixth world is much more urbanized than in reality.  Fewer people live outside of sprawls and there's less incentive to give matrix coverage to the boonies.  HOWEVER, it's rare to the point of niche to be cut off due (solely) to distance. Datajacks are fairly ubiquitous except for nutcases (such as the Awakened) which means Noise Reduction 2 is virtually universal.  The Signal Scrub program is so cheap as to be essentially free (except for Technomancers..) and that's another NR2.  For virtually anyone who's anyone, you'd have to have the cheapest possible commlink manufactured AND be more than 100KM outside of the nearest sprawl to have "Commlink won't work" problems (10,001m - 100,000m = 5 noise.  5 Noise - 4NR = 1 Noise.  1 Noise !> DR1 Commlink)

No Matrix access due to other forms of Noise:  Granted, that's a hot mess.  The less said the better while errata is pending.

[Xenon]

The only four situations I know of where you are not considered connected to the matrix are:

1. Faraday Cage
2. Wireless static zone
3. In such a remote location that there is no matrix access is possible unless you have a satellite link
4. If you manually turn off your wireless connection


Noise does not make the device lose connection to the matrix, it add "latency" which is represented as a negative dice pool modifier on matrix tests.

Enough noise may prevent you from getting a wireless bonus, but even for this purpose noise due to distance is never a factor (but being stuck in a Faraday's cage or stranded in the middle of the pacific or on the north pole without a satellite link or any other in a wireless static zone where you have no matrix access will also prevent you from getting your wireless bonus).

See this post for details:

And for clarity, here is Xenon's reply.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

The only four situations I know of where you are not considered connected to the matrix are:

1. Faraday Cage
2. Wireless static zone
3. In such a remote location that there is no matrix access is possible unless you have a satellite link
4. If you manually turn off your wireless connection

I *think* Jamming is supposed to be a 5th category, but that's all dependent on what the errata comes out saying.  I have other quibbles as well, but they're for now gonna go unsaid as they're dependent on wording that's pending errata.

[Iron Serpent Prince]

Datajacks are fairly ubiquitous except for nutcases (such as the Awakened) which means Noise Reduction 2 is virtually universal.

Just a couple of points on this.

A Datajack only provides Noise Reduction of 1, and that is a Wireless bonus so it may be prevented due to Noise.
... ...  Of course, there is no clarity on if the Noise Reduction is applied before or after the effects of Noise so it is questionable if a area of Noise 3 is enough to prevent the Noise Reduction from taking effect, or if it is a Noise area of 4 (for standard grade Datajack).

Wireless: The datajack gives you Rating 1 noise reduction.

[adzling]

(until the Errata team is done with Jammers the above are probably the only four situations where your commlink does not have access to the matrix)

the errata team has pending errata on this very subject, the intent of which is to let Jammers function as they should (jam matrix activity).

someday soon it will make it out onto the published, waiting for approval errata area.