[Darkeus]

By RAW, the rule clearly states that it is "for all other purposes".  Clearly, that says that the full magic rating is used.


Let us get into a comparison of utility.  Let's take Ashren still.  If I go by the FAQ, that means that he can only cast Force two spells.  He overcast at 3 - 4 force spells and only cast spells with six dice.  Yeah, I get some adept powers but seriously, my spell casting ability sucks.  I am pretty much only doing 4P on average, maybe less.  Easily resisted by some, not very powerful in a fight.

Or I can have Ashren be able to cast Force Six spells.  He is still limited to the amount of hits he can get by his actual skill at casting.  OTOH, he might be able to hit someone with a 8P damage powerbolt.  That is a little more efficient.

Hey, however you want to play your campaign.  

[Bradd]

SR4A, p. 195 (emphasis mine):

For every point of Magic invested in physical abilities, the char-
acter gets one Power Point that she can use to purchase adept powers.
Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the char-
acter one point to use with Magic-based skills. For all other purposes,
including the determination of the maximum level for adept powers,
the character’s full Magic attribute is used. Such a character will not
have as many adept powers as most other adepts, nor will they be able
to cast spells with the same skill as true magicians. Mystic adepts may
use their adept powers normally.

That supports Glyph's example and contradicts the FAQ.

I've also been wondering what they mean by "use adept powers normally." Are they talking about powers like Boost Attribute? Does that use limited dice like Magic skills, or does it use full Magic like adept ratings? In this case I could go either way.

[FastJack]

Thank you, NOW I understand the contradiction.

Time to send a PM to Mr. Hardy.

[Darkeus]

SR4A, p. 195 (emphasis mine):

For every point of Magic invested in physical abilities, the char-
acter gets one Power Point that she can use to purchase adept powers.
Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the char-
acter one point to use with Magic-based skills. For all other purposes,
including the determination of the maximum level for adept powers,
the character’s full Magic attribute is used. Such a character will not
have as many adept powers as most other adepts, nor will they be able
to cast spells with the same skill as true magicians. Mystic adepts may
use their adept powers normally.

That supports Glyph's example and contradicts the FAQ.

I've also been wondering what they mean by "use adept powers normally." Are they talking about powers like Boost Attribute? Does that use limited dice like Magic skills, or does it use full Magic like adept ratings? In this case I could go either way.

Yes, I would assume that it is talking about Boost Attribute.   Boost Attribute says:

To gain the boost, make a Magic + (Attribute Boost) Test.

So I assume that passage in SR4A would mean that you use your full Magic rating for this test.

[Bradd]

I think so too, and as a GM I would allow mystics to use full Magic for Attribute Boost. However, in this case it's so similar to Magic-linked skills that I wouldn't argue against a GM who disagreed. It would be nice to have an official answer, though.

[Julius Q Enderby]

Timely discussion, thanks for bringing it up.    We just hashed through this contradiction as well with our newly convened SR4A group. We've settled on RAW concerning full use of Magic rating for Force of spells. I am heartened at the statement by Darkeus regarding the stability of RAW and I look forward to see how well it holds in actual play.

I've a question regarding the warning against the powered-out concept of the Mystic Adept who spent all Magic points for powers and was still allowed to cast full Magic rating Force spells. Can such a thing exist by a reasonable interpretation of the rules? How is a Mystic Adept who devotes all Magic points to adept powers not simply a normal Adept? Doesn't a Mystic Adept, by definition, have to devote at least 1 point to Magic skill use a la magician?

Thanks,
JQE

[Bradd]

Oh yeah, I was wondering about that too. If you allocate all of your Magic points to adept stuff, does that mean you cast spells with Skill + zero, or does it mean that you can't cast spells at all until you raise your Magic attribute and allocate some to magery?

[Darkeus]

Oh yeah, I was wondering about that too. If you allocate all of your Magic points to adept stuff, does that mean you cast spells with Skill + zero, or does it mean that you can't cast spells at all until you raise your Magic attribute and allocate some to magery?

That is not a Mystic Adept, that is an Adept.

A Mystic Adept is a character that splits their magic between spellcasting and adept powers.  If there is no split, you are either a Magician (full Magic used for spellcasting) or an Adept (Full Magic rating used for Power Points to purchase Adept powers).

[Muspellsheimr]

Okay, so the FAQ is pretty clear:

Though mystic adepts must split their Magic between Magic-based skills and adept powers, it says that for all other purposes, including the limits of adept powers, the mystic adept uses his full Magic attribute. Does this mean that a mystic adept with Magic 6 who has allocated 2 points to Magic skills and 4 points to adept powers can cast Force 6 spells without flinching?

The Magic points allocated towards Magic-based skills counts for all aspects of those skills. This includes: Magic-linked skill tests (Summoning, Spellcasting, Enchanting, etc.), maximum spell Force, overcasting, etc.

For a mystic adept's adept powers, only the points allocated towards adept powers apply. This includes powers that require Magic Tests like Attribute Boost, the maximum rating of leveled adept powers, etc.

For all other purposes—i.e., non-Magic-linked skills—the mystic adept's full Magic attribute is used: pressing through astral barriers, initiation grade limit, Masking metamagic, being assensed, etc.

So for the example above, a mystic adept with Magic 6 with 2 points devoted to Magic skills and 4 points to adept powers, the maximum Force he can cast at is 4, and anything over Force 2 is Physical Drain. His adept powers are limited to rating 4 or lower.

So, the Magic Attribute not assigned to power does limit the Force of spells. I'm not sure what the question is anymore. I don't see the contradiction of Adept powers that everyone keeps mentioning.

This is one of several instances where the Frequently Asked Questions document directly contradicts the rules. As the FAQ is not an Errata document, it does not have the authority to alter the functionality of the rules (official or not - this was even directly stated by the FAQ author).

For every point of Magic invested in physical abilities, the character
gets one Power Point that she can use to purchase adept powers.
Every point of Magic invested in mana-based abilities grants the character
one point to use with Magic-based skills. For all other purposes,
including the determination of the maximum level for adept powers,
the character’s full Magic attribute is used. Such a character will not
have as many adept powers as most other adepts, nor will they be able
to cast spells with the same skill as true magicians. Mystic adepts may
use their adept powers normally.

Again, the FAQ is not Errata, nor is it intended to be. The purpose of an FAQ is to clarify, not alter.
If the FAQ and RAW contradict, RAW wins, regardless of release date.

Further, until a rules quote is provided declaring Force and Drain to be a factor of the skill, the FAQ is in fact a House Rule.


Edit: I don't know how much sending a a PM to Hardy will actually do - this has been brought up numerous times sense the release of the FAQ, and I even made an offer to correct/write the FAQ free of charge so that it does not contradict RAW, or even write an Errata to bring RAW in line with the intent, with no fee's or agreements attached - with no response.

[Wraith235]

.  The FAQ predates Shadowrun Anniversary Edition IIRC and so I go by what the RAW says here. 

actually you are Wrong here ..... Allow me to point you twords a page on the Shadowrun4.com page

http://www.shadowrun4.com/wordpress/2010/02/shadowrun-20th-anniversary-limited-edition/

if you use Google to find this then the date listed for the page is Feb 17 2010

also the 1st posting under the release of the SR4A Limited edition was dated feb 17


now I Point you twords the Last update of the FAQ

Shadowrun, Fourth Edition FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions)
Version 2.0
Last Updated: 20 March 2010

I remember the discussion on dumpshock popping up when these Changes were made and this is one of the posted changes on march 2010 .... so this is indeed the latest issuing of the Rules

also Lets look at when the last Eratta was posted

that page is so far out of date its not even funny .... it lists the last FAQ update as being Dec1 2006

so ignoring the Date posting this is what you see

Frequently Asked Questions
The Shadowrun Frequently Asked Questions list covers general queries about Shadowrun, writing for Catalyst, various Shadowrun books, rules questions, and more.

I personally feel the statment of "this is not eratta" is beyond a weak argument

I dont know if this is relavent but the lates Version of the Errata is listed as v1.8 ..... FAQ is on 2.0

the Argument that a mystic adept can spend 5 points on adept powers ... buy the sorcery skill at 4 .... casting/summoning force 12 spells/spirits with only a 5 dice penalty is beyond broken especially with resticted gear quality for a force 4 power focus at Char Gen .... the end result is in essence a Cybered out Mage with 0 penaltys .... not balanced in the slightest

note: I said In Essence because in this example who wouldnt buy the 4 PP imp reflexes and then use the last point for something like mystic Armor


also if you look at the BP aspect of this

15 BP for the quality
65 BP for a magic 6
you spend 10 BP for the conjuring group
you spend 10 BP for the Sorcery Group
then you spend 29 BP for the force 4 power focus (thats 100k / Restricted gear quality and 4 to bind)

129 BP for your magical needs .... and all your doing is taking a dice pool penalty of -5 (Efectivly -1) to all magic tied skills / tests

leaving 271 for stats / other skills / gear / contacts ect

and with those 5 PP spent into adept powers ...

now lets even further abuse this .... possession tradition .... so not incredibly powerful at start ... but after channeling meta magic .... suddenly the power level of this char Surpasses that of anything on the market early game

[Medicineman]

Oh yeah, I was wondering about that too. If you allocate all of your Magic points to adept stuff, does that mean you cast spells with Skill + zero, or does it mean that you can't cast spells at all until you raise your Magic attribute and allocate some to magery?

You need at least 1 Point of MAG allocated to Sorcery or Conjuring or else you can't use these Skills at all.

HougH!
Medicineman

[Bradd]

@Medicineman: The rules do clearly say that you need "a Magic attribute of 1 or greater" to take Magical Active skills. However, just like with maximum Force, it's ambiguous whether that refers to allocated Magic or full Magic. In this case I'm inclined to agree with you, but I don't see clear support from the rules.

@Darkeus: I think it's perfectly reasonable to start a Mystic Adept with all the Magic Points allocated one way or the other, then develop the weaker side with karma. It's similar to the Latent Awakening quality.

@Wraith235: Don't underestimate the impact of "only a 5 dice penalty." My group's combat mage struggled for several sessions largely because of a single sustained spell. He would've been a complete failure with a constant -5 dice. It's not something you want to do on a regular basis (very much like playing a multi-classed spellcaster in D&D3). Yes, you can make up for most of it with a Power Focus 4, but that'll cost another 29 bp. Adept & magician builds are very tight to begin with, so where will you find the points? If you can afford it, why not just play a mage with that focus? You'll do better for cheaper, with 14-16 in your dice pool instead of 9-11.

[Mäx]

I don't have any argument with you on how the rules work and i agree that they should work like that, but i do take an issue with this statement.

It's pretty useless for Combat spells, because you'll only have 4-6 dice in your spellcasting pool, and that's just not enough to beat defenses reliably.

I heavily disagree as 2 of my latest mys-ad builds have 15 and 16 dice to cast combat spells.

@Wraith235: The date when a FAQ was published doesn't matter one bit, as the moment it contradicts the actual rules it stops being worth anything, except maybe as toiled paper if you print it out.
Also pretty epic power gaming build you have there with the awesome 5 dice for spellcasting.

[Bradd]

OK, I'm curious how you built that! The most straightforward approach I see is Aptitude, Restricted Gear, Spellcasting 7 (Combat +2), Spellcasting Focus (Combat) 5. That gets you 14 + Magic in your dice pool.

Of course, if you made a Magician, it could be 19 + Magic.

@Mäx/Wraith235: Spending 4 PP on Improved Reflexes is suboptimal too. Spending PP on anything you can duplicate with spells is ultimately a waste of Magic dice. Better to get a sustaining focus or quickening. That's the whole reason I'd want to play a mystic, mechanics-wise: Save precious PP by replacing them with (relatively) cheap spells!

(Also, watch out for Focus Addiction! Digital Grimoire, p. 8: "The gamemaster can call for a Focus Addiction Test at any time she feels the player is abusing foci; a good guideline is whenever a character has a total Force of active foci in excess of twice their Magic attribute.")

[Juxtamon]

Timely discussion, thanks for bringing it up.    We just hashed through this contradiction as well with our newly convened SR4A group. We've settled on RAW concerning full use of Magic rating for Force of spells. I am heartened at the statement by Darkeus regarding the stability of RAW and I look forward to see how well it holds in actual play.
...
Thanks,
JQE

Enderby... 
Nice to see you, whichever one you are.

In terms of sustained/quickened spells > certain Adept powers (reflexes, e.g.), I'm not sure I agree.  For the *mystic adept* I can see it maybe going that way, but still...
  Adept power: not dispellable, harder to detect when assensed, useable without threat of Drain, doesn't NEED an expensive Focus or (more expensive) Karma to hold.  But, if you want the effect, you get the spell if you don't have the power, and vice versa.