Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: ClaytonCross on <01-27-16/1843:38>
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Just to ensure I am thinking clearly for rigger combat....
First, most “Drone” rules apply to drones, vehicles, and turrets
the rules for drones apply to any remotely controlled or rigged device, but between us chummers let’s just say “drone” because it’s shorter. (SR5 p269)
Which means before you can even start combat you have to understand the concept of the who is controlling what and how. Program, A driver, or a “sleeping driver controlling the car through will” and how that changes rolls.
Autonomous Drone/vehicles/turrets: Pilot programs using skill programs
Manually Operated Drone/vehicles/turrets: A metahuman piloting normally
Local AR (Joystick/Xbox connect): A metahuman piloting it like a video game with a joystick or a modern drone with a camera to an RC controller with a TV screen
Remote AR (CLI / FPS): A metahuman piloting it like an FPS with a mouse and key board, a command line interface, or like fallouts pause and play vats system
Remote VR (Cold-sim): A metahuman piloting it safely from the matrix, like Neo in training
Remote VR (hot-sim): A metahuman piloting it safely from the matrix, like Neo when he has powers but bullets still kill him.
Skill check Bonuses [spoiler]Please keep in mind there is not a separate matirix for riggers and matrix pages are not the "decker pages". Technomancers, Riggers, and deckers all use them as written unless stated otherwise.
1. Jumped in = Virtual Reality mode (VR)
When you’re jumped into a vehicle or other device, you’re in Virtual Reality mode. (SR5 p266)
2. Piloting assistance Limit bonus
Using AR to assist piloting gives [Limit +1] for driving test
Using VR to assist piloting gives [Limit +2] for driving test
(Threshold – rig rating min 1.) if using a control rig and jumped in
If the pilot is driving with the aid of Augmented Reality, increase the limit of any tests by 1, and if the pilot is driving using Virtual Reality, increase limits by 2. If the pilot is equipped with a Control Rig and is controlling the vehicle while Jumped In, decrease the threshold of tests by the rating of the Control Rig (to a minimum of 1). (SR5 p201)
3. Rigger vehicle limits increased by Rig rating
When you’re jumped into a vehicle, drone, or other device, the limits of that device are increased by the rating of your control rig. This includes vehicle and drone Sensor, Speed, and Handling, and the Accuracy of mounted weapons when used by the rigger. The control rig also connects more smoothly through an RCC when operating in VR. (SR5 p266)
4. Hardware:
dice pool + rig rating to vehicle skill tests when jumped in
handling and speed + rig rating if using a control rig and jumped in (This should be the same bonus as #3, I don’t believe they are cumulative, but it is talking about actual stats raising being why the limits raise for #3)
(Threshold – rig rating min 1.) if using a control rig and jumped in
This implant harnesses the raw data-coordinating and synchronization power of the middle brain for the express purpose of directly manipulating rigged vehicles and drones (and other devices with rigger interface, like turrets). It has a built-in sim module, so you can use it for DNI with other devices. It also comes with a universal data connector and about a meter of retractable cable (it’s like getting a free datajack). When you’re jumped into a vehicle or drone, the control rig provides its Rating as a dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests. Additionally, the rating of your control rig is added to the Handling and Speed of any vehicle you are jumped into. As if that was not enough, your Vehicle Test thresholds are reduced by the rating of your control rig (to a minimum of 1), again when you’re jumped in. (SR5 p451)
5. wireless Noise
If you’re rigging via wireless, all of your actions suffer from a Noise penalty (see p. 230). (SR5 p466)
To figure out how noise is affecting you, start with the noise level from real-world distance to your target and add the noise level from any other applicable situations, then subtract any noise reduction you are using. Any positive noise level you have left over is a negative dice pool modifier to your actions.(SR5 p230)
Noise never applies to defense or resistance tests. (SR5 p231)
6. Using a control rig and jumping into vehicle allows you to treat all its actions as matrix actions including ANY matrix bonuses
The control rig allows you to treat Vehicle actions the same way you treat Matrix actions, so any bonus you get to Matrix actions also apply to Vehicle actions when you’re jumped in; this includes Vehicle Control Tests, Gunnery Tests, and Sensor Tests. (SR5 p266)
7. VR Hot-sim matrix bonus
You receive a +2 dice pool bonus to all Matrix actions, and you take biofeedback damage as Physical damage. (About Hot-Sim Virtual Reality, SR5 p230)
And per the below FAQ page entry is cumulative with:
If you’re using hot-sim, you get +3D6 (4D6 total) Initiative dice, and a +1 dice pool bonus that applies to all Matrix test (including Vehicle actions), but all biofeedback damage is Physical damage. (SR5 p266)
Response from Aaron, which I am told is considered official even though we are talking about some who’s signature sais, “I like to answer questions, but my answers are not official and don't necessarily reflect the opinions of Catalyst Game Labs or its employees. I might even be wrong.” The reply is the third from the bottom, question and answer number 4:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=11514.msg238706;topicseen#msg238706
FAQ question
4. Can you give an example of a Matrix action that would share a bonus with a Vehicle action (p. 266, under "VR and Rigging")? For example, does the +1 die to Vehicle and Matrix tests while using hot sim (p. 266) stack with the +2 dice to Matrix tests (p. 231) since "any bonus you get to Matrix actions also applies to Vehicle actions."
Aaron’s Answer
4. Yep, your example is correct. Rigging is awesome (until you get hacked or totaled).
[/spoiler]
Bonuses Short list:
AR gives skill dice + attribute dice - net noise(5)[Limit +1 AR(2)] for driving test
VR gives skill dice + rig rating(4) + attribute dice +2 hot-sim(6+7) + 1 hot-sim-rig(7) - net noise(5) [Limit +2VR(2) + rig rating(3)](threshold - rig rating(2))
Additionally, the Rig adds is rating to the Handling and Speed of whatever they are jumped into4, I don’t think this is a reference to skill test bonuses but a literal increase so a rigger jumped into a 5 speed vehicle can catch a 6 with no skill test on flat ground.(Its kind of like being a rigger gives you the GEARHEAD Quality for free without the time limit).
Also remember you can only jump into 1 device via VR at a time so no rigger will have more than 1 drone/vehicle/turret with these bonuses at any one time.
A Technomancer or Decker can jump in as a matrix action and get the +2 hot-sim dice pool so it’s the limit adjustments that make them shine but that also makes them most functional for tests with thresholds and as edge junkies.
Sensor tests / vehicle Perception tests / Active Targeting [spoiler]
This is not a skill test, it is a vehicle test, and a sensor test that may have a threshold or opposition test depending on if your target can actively hide from you.
Autonomous Drone/vehicles/turrets: Pilot + Clear sight [Sensor] (SR5 p184) Manually Operated Drone/vehicles/turrets: Perception + Intuition [Sensor] (SR5 p184)aiming through platforms electronic sensors and not hard sites
Local AR (Joystick/Xbox connect): Perception + Intuition [Sensor] (SR5 p184)
Remote AR (CLI / FPS): Perception + Intuition - net noise [Sensor] (SR5 p184)
Remote VR (Cold-sim): Perception + Intuition - net noise [Sensor+ rig rating] (threshold -rig rating) (SR5 p184)
Remote VR (hot-sim): Perception + Intuition +2 hot-sim + 1 hot-sim-rig - net noise [Sensor + rig rating] (threshold -rig rating) (SR5 p184)
Active targeting uses a vehicle’s Sensors to lock onto a target. To use active targeting, the character/vehicle must first make a Sensor Test to lock onto a target. This requires a Simple Action. (SR5 p184)
[/spoiler]
Sensor / vehicle Perception opposition tests[spoiler] metahumans / critters on foot: Infiltration + Agility [Physical]
Autonomous Drone/vehicles/turrets: Pilot + [Model] Evasion [Handling] (SR5 Errata p2)
Manually Operated Drone/vehicles/turrets: Infiltration (Vehicle) + Reaction [Handling] (SR5 p184)aiming through platforms electronic sensors and not hard sites
Local AR (Joystick/Xbox connect): Infiltration (Vehicle) + Reaction [Handling+1AR] (SR5 p184)
Remote AR (CLI / FPS): Infiltration (Vehicle) + Reaction - net noise [Handling +1AR] (SR5 p184)
Remote VR (Cold-sim): Infiltration (Vehicle) + rig rating + Reaction - net noise [Handling +2 VR + rig rating] (SR5 p184)
Remote VR (hot-sim): Infiltration (Vehicle) + rig rating +2 hot-sim + 1 hot-sim-rig + Reaction - net noise [Handling+2 VR + rig rating] (SR5 p184)[/spoiler]
Surprise Resistance Test[spoiler]
Defending target rolls: reaction + intuition +3 if tipped if in some way [no limit] (threshold of 3 - rig rating if jumped in) (SR5 p192)
[Failure = -10 Initiative, Surprised characters get no Defense Test for the first combat turn. (summarized from SR5p192)
Ambusher rolls: reaction + intuition +6 if surprised while waiting for someone (threshold of 3) [no limit] (SR5 p192)
Ambushing characters are not surprised unless they perceive the target coming, if they are the resistance test becomes an opposed test
if defender has equal or more net hits the ambush fails, otherwise the target is surprised[/spoiler]
Initiative[spoiler]
Autonomous Drone/vehicles/turrets: pilot x 2 + 4d6 (SR5 p270)
Manually Operated Drone/vehicles/turrets: Reaction + intuition + 1D6 (SR5 p 159)
AR (all): Reaction + intuition + 1D6 (SR5 p159)
Remote VR (Cold-sim): Data Processing + Intuition + 3D6 (SR5 p229)
Remote VR (hot-sim): Data Processing + Intuition + 4D6 (SR5 p230)[/spoiler]
Driving Skill tests[spoiler]
Autonomous Drone/vehicles: autosoft[usually model spacifit] + pilot [Handling]
Manually Operated vehicles: Vehicle Skill + Reaction [Handling] (SR5 p199)
Local AR (Joystick/Controler): Vehicle Skill + Reaction [Handling+1 AR] (SR5 p199)
Remote AR (CLI/FPS): Vehicle Skill + Reaction [Handling +1 AR] (SR5 p199)
Remote VR (Cold-sim): Vehicle Skill + Reaction +2 hot-sim [Handling +2 VR + rig rating] vs (Threshold - rig rating) (SR5 p199)
Remote VR (hot-sim): Vehicle Skill + Reaction +2 hot-sim [Handling +2 VR + rig rating] vs (Threshold - rig rating) (SR5 p199)
Handling represents the vehicle’s agility and responsiveness. This value is the base limit for Vehicle Tests made where maneuverability is the most important feature.
Speed represents the maximum velocity that the vehicle can achieve—its top-end speed. This value is thebase limit for Vehicle Tests that emphasize raw speed.
[/spoiler]
Attack
Gunnery counts as a vehicle skill per the Rigger section, and wireless gunnery uses Logic not AGI, and vehicle mounted weapons always use a full action to fire regardless of firing mode[/size][spoiler]
Autonomous Drone/vehicles/turrets: Pilot + weapon [Weapon Accuracy] <-- Command line interface (text order to drone)
Manually Operated vehicles : Agility + Gunnery [Weapon Accuracy] Local AR (Joystick/Controler): Agility + Gunnery - net noise [Weapon Accuracy + 1AR] <- Think xbox connect/joystick with aim assist
Remote AR (CLI/FPS): Logic + Gunnery - net noise [Weapon Accuracy + 1AR] <- key board and mouse control
Remote VR (Cold-sim): Logic + Gunnery + rig rating - net noise [Weapon Accuracy + 2VR + rig rating]
Remote VR (hot-sim): Logic + Gunnery + 2 hot-sim + 1 hot-sim-rig + rig rating - net noise [Weapon Accuracy + 2VR + rig rating] The skills you mainly want to look at as a rigger are the Vehicle Active skills. Those are all of the skills that begin with the word “Pilot,” plus the Gunnery skill so you can shoot from your vehicles. (SR5 p265)
The rules and modifiers for ranged combat apply to vehicle-mounted weapons. Vehicle-mounted weapons are fired using gunnery(errata) Skill + Agility [Accuracy] for manual operation, like door guns on mounts, or Gunnery + Logic [Accuracy] for remote operated systems. A Complex Action is required for shooting weapons mounted on a vehicle in any firing mode. (SR5 p183)
[/spoiler]
Opposition:
Autonomous Drone/vehicle: Pilot + maneuvering autosoft (model specific) [Handling]
Autonomous Turrets: Pilot
Metahuman/human: Intuition +Reaction
Manually piloted drone/vehicle: reaction + intuition [handling]
Hands on Remote controlled AR turret/Drone/vehicle: reaction + intuition [handling]
CLI/FPS Remote controlled AR turret/Drone/vehicle: reaction + intuition [handling]
Remote controlled VR-cold turret/Drone/vehicle: reaction + intuition [handling +1 VR + rig rating]
Remote controlled VR-hot turret/Drone/vehicle: reaction + intuition +2 hot-sim [handling +1 VR + rig rating]
(Smartsystem not included for Autonomous unless its is running the smart link autosoft or if you have smartlink and are firing the weapon manual / remotely.)
THANK YOU for your replies. I put some notes that I listed like facts but please understand they are talking points not me stating law. I am posting because I am trying to figure it all out. I just may post some more questions and page numbers before I just agree because your smarter than me. Sometimes smart people are wrong. Just performing due diligence.
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What is "manual turret"?
Remote Control is logic+gunner afaik.
You do NOT add your control rig rating to gunnery, only vehicle tests (i.e. driving/ flying etc).
Not sure where you're getting +1 to gunner from VR. AFAIK it's just +2 for hot sim VR.
You DO NOT add your rig rating to defense tests AFAIK.
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Manual turret means when you operate the vehicle mounted weapon by hand, such as the door gunner hanging out the side of the helicopter flying over Vietnam.
Gunnery is considered among the Vehicle skills, which means it does receive Matrix bonuses and Control Rig bonuses.
According to the book, Riggers get +1 in Hot Sim, while Deckers get +2. Some argue it's a typo, but it hasn't been errata'd so far. Also, Riggers don't get as high of Matrix Nish as Deckers.
You do not receive Rig bonus to defense tests. Those are not Skill checks, which is what the Rig bonus applies towards.
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Remote control is gunnery + agil, according to page 238 and 265 of the core book (265 references "control device" action on 238 as to how to use remote control, and in the control device explanation they say gunnery + agility to fire a gun)
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Remote control is gunnery + agil, according to page 238 and 265 of the core book (265 references "control device" action on 238 as to how to use remote control, and in the control device explanation they say gunnery + agility to fire a gun)
There's a lot of debate over that. Agility is a purely physical stat, there is no way that would translate across into VR. And when you're doing true Rigger stuff, you're in VR pretending to be the drone itself. In which case, you'd use Logic since that is what remotely controls devices. Agility really should only apply to physically manhandling the controls yourself in person.
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hmm are you sure you add your control rig to your gunnery skill? I've never played it that way before (of course I could have been wrong all this time)....
i could see agility for remote control using a hand-held controller or an AR controller (still using your real fingers, just to move imaginary stuff) but not for remote control from say a deck while your jacked into VR for the rest of your decking activities.
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Core pg 265, Rigging Skills
The skills you mainly want to look at as a rigger are the Vehicle Active skills. Those are all of the skills that begin with the word “Pilot,” plus the Gunnery skill so you can shoot from your vehicles.
Pg 266, VR and Rigging
The control rig allows you to treat Vehicle actions the same way you treat Matrix actions, so any bonus you get to Matrix actions also apply to Vehicle actions when you’re jumped in; this includes Vehicle Control Tests, Gunnery Tests, and Sensor Tests.
... If you’re using hot-sim, you get +3D6 (4D6 total) Initiative dice, and a +1 dice pool bonus that applies to all Matrix test (including Vehicle actions)
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The +1 bonus for riggers stack with the +2 bonus for hot-sim according to Aaron in the FAQ thread. On phone so I can't easily link it, but he said something along the lines of "it's good to be a rigger" when he confirmed this.
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The +1 bonus for riggers stack with the +2 bonus for hot-sim according to Aaron in the FAQ thread. On phone so I can't easily link it, but he said something along the lines of "it's good to be a rigger" when he confirmed this.
Sure, cus you should always look up rules in the Decker section of the book before you finish rolling up your Rigger.
Do the different Matrix Initiative dice also stack up with the Deckers? I know they don't b/c it says (max 3d6) next to it.
Man, some of the answers that guy comes back with...
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Added some notes that may require some debate and/or page numbers to clarify because some responses are confusing me more then correcting some of my misconceptions. Please understand this notes represent my current view on the matrix as I see it right now and might need to be clarified in order to define my original questions. If they are wrong please feel free to correct them. Also, I have two of pages of notes on a word document at home and will go through and add page numbers when I get a chance. Might be tomorrow I have a busy day today.
NOTE: Below attacks are matrix actions - there is not a separate matirix for riggers. <--------------------------------------------
anytime it mentions riggers performing matrix actions it references the matrix pages
The matrix pages are not the "decker pages". Technomancers, Riggers, and deckers all use them as stated unless stated other wise.
If I am not mistaken all matrix actions use Logic as the attribute unless noted - Gunnery "IRL" = agility, Gunnery Matrix action = Logic
I will double check my notes on this, But I believe there is note on a page about matrix actions which seems irrelevant but is for gunnery
All VR actions get plus +1 in the matrix due to the effectancy of jumping-in which is not a rigger only ability its a matrix action (I will add the page later)
VR-Hot sim adds an additional +2 in exchange for the physical damage instead of stun, this does not negate the +1VR... you are still in VR
Matirx initiative is its own thing and I am not comparing the two because I believe its apples and oranges. But again feel free to correct me.
THANK YOU for your replies. I put some notes that I listed like facts but please understand they are talking points not me stating law. I am posting because I am trying to figure it all out. I just may post some more questions and page numbers before I just agree because your smarter than me. Sometimes smart people are wrong. Just performing due diligence.
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Sure, cus you should always look up rules in the Decker section of the book before you finish rolling up your Rigger.
Do the different Matrix Initiative dice also stack up with the Deckers? I know they don't b/c it says (max 3d6) next to it.
Man, some of the answers that guy comes back with...
Well, yes. You should also look up the combat section, since that's where driving is detailed. And while you're at it, the Matrix section since its specifically referenced in the programs you can run on your RCC, and details how your drones can be hacked.
Really, the Matrix section isn't Deckers only; there's stuff in there for any runner, matrix specialist or not. So I find your comment to be a little hyperbolic, to be quite honest.
While I agree that some of Aaron's readings are a little odd, he is part of the rules team and his comments are as official as they get, unofficially. Your table, your rules, though; no one is holding you at gunpoint.
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Sure, cus you should always look up rules in the Decker section of the book before you finish rolling up your Rigger.
Do the different Matrix Initiative dice also stack up with the Deckers? I know they don't b/c it says (max 3d6) next to it.
Man, some of the answers that guy comes back with...
Well, yes. You should also look up the combat section, since that's where driving is detailed. And while you're at it, the Matrix section since its specifically referenced in the programs you can run on your RCC, and details how your drones can be hacked.
Really, the Matrix section isn't Deckers only; there's stuff in there for any runner, matrix specialist or not. So I find your comment to be a little hyperbolic, to be quite honest.
While I agree that some of Aaron's readings are a little odd, he is part of the rules team and his comments are as official as they get, unofficially. Your table, your rules, though; no one is holding you at gunpoint.
What I'm saying is...
1) These books suck at organization. If you can't figure out how to play a Rigger by reading the Rigger chapter, then it needs re-written. Why does EVERY aspect of this game require so much cross referencing?
2) Nothing in the description of Riggers and VR suggests that anything it's listing is supposed to stack with Deckers and VR. In the same breath as they're describing the different Matrix Initiative, they're also describing a different bonus. But somehow, that bonus isn't different, it's extra?
Added some notes...
One thing that may have been mis-represented. You do not get to add your Control Rig rating into the dice pool when you roll defense tests. However, you do still get to add your Control Rig rating to the Handling of the vehicle, which will raise the Limit of your defense test. Control Rig rating applies to Speed and Handling according to the entry in the Gear section, though it applies to all vehicle limits according to the Rigging and Limits paragraph in the Rigger section.
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@ Marcus Gideon
Thanks for the clarification. That makes a lot more since.
I do feel like intuition + reaction [handling] doesn't make as much since for a defensive roll a as reaction + related pilot skill [handling] which would receive the rigger bonus and increase in limit, it would also line up more with drones/vehicles using pilot + maneuver auto soft. But again without the book in front of me I believe its intuition + reaction [handling] like a person with a limit. (intuition + reaction [agility] is not a thing but it actually makes since.)
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It is Reaction + Intuition [Handling]
You don't factor in pilot skill just like you don't factor in agility to dodging a bullet. You're rolling for knee jerk reaction, which turns into getting out of the way somehow. Otherwise you'd have to risk rolling for a response, and then rolling for the maneuver, hoping you don't roll one worse than the other.
If you want to include extra dice, Evasive Driving is like Full Defense, adding your Intuition to the dice pool again.
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The text description for VR and rigging on page 266 in core would seem to indicate the rigging bonus for VR is in lieu of the standard matrix VR bonus.
As usual specific trumps general, with the rigging rules noted below being specific and the matrix rules for VR being general.
If they wanted riggers to get both bonuses they would have said it right here.
Instead they indicated a different initiative and dice pool bonus without reference to the standard +4d6/+2 VR matrix bonus.
So if you are arguing that the +2 VR matrix bonus stacks with the +1 rigger VR bonus than you *must* also be arguing that the initiative bonus should also stack (+4d6 for matrix VR, +3d6 for rigger VR = +7d6 <max 5d6>).
So clearly Aaron was smoking something when he wrote his response and clearly the rules as written indicate the rigger VR bonus is different from the Matrix VR bonus.
Given Catalyst's horrific track record on editing/ composition/ writing of rules I'm guessing what happened here is that one person wrote the section on rigging and a different person wrote the section on decking and they didn't end up comparing notes.
So the riggers were meant to get the same bonus from VR as deckers (+4d6/ +2) but instead they got different bonus because the line editor is out to lunch.
I think this is the case because the first paragraph below indicates riggers should get the same matrix bonuses as deckers.
This also makes sense in the situation where a decker is acting in hot sim VR then jumps into a drone/ vehicle.
If you presume the same bonuses for riggers and deckers nothing changes, initiative remains the same.
If you follow the rules as written you must re-roll initiative after you jump in, which seems dumb to me.
So at our table we're going to houesrule that riggers get the same bonuses for VR as deckers and call it a day.
It's more sensible, more elegant and removes any confusion.
<edited to remove rhetorical comments>
See text below:
VR AND RIGGING
When you’re jumped into a vehicle or other device, you’re in Virtual Reality mode. The control rig allows you to treat Vehicle actions the same way you treat Matrix actions, so any bonus you get to Matrix actions also apply to Vehicle actions when you’re jumped in; this includes Vehicle Control Tests, Gunnery Tests, and Sensor Tests.
Just like in the Matrix, you have the option of using cold-sim or hot-sim while rigging. If you’re using cold-sim, you get +2D6 to your Initiative (3D6 total), and any biofeedback damage you take is Stun. If you’re using hot-sim, you get +3D6 (4D6 total) Initiative dice, and a +1 dice pool bonus that applies to all Matrix test (in- cluding Vehicle actions), but all biofeedback damage is Physical damage.
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--SNIP--
Given Catalyst's horrific track record on editing/ composition/ writing of rules I'm guessing what happened here is that one person wrote the section on rigging and a different person wrote the section on decking and they didn't end up comparing notes.
--SNIP--
Bam, job of line editor done here on the boards.
You're welcome Catalyst.
--SNIP--
Appreciate the ideas and input...perhaps we can tone down the rhetoric?
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Not starting another argument thread here.
I'll just note that those statements re: Catalyst's track record are actually true, documented observations noted by many people throughout the Shadowrun gaming community, not rhetoric.
I removed the comments noted below as they WERE rhetoric:
Bam, job of line editor done here on the boards.
You're welcome Catalyst.
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The +1 bonus for riggers stack with the +2 bonus for hot-sim according to Aaron in the FAQ thread. On phone so I can't easily link it, but he said something along the lines of "it's good to be a rigger" when he confirmed this.
Until the hacker spots your easy to spot hidden icon and data spikes with the hammer and fork program your drone and your RCC with a 10+ DV dataspike as you roll for dumpshock and direct matrix damage
Core pg 265, Rigging Skills
The skills you mainly want to look at as a rigger are the Vehicle Active skills. Those are all of the skills that begin with the word “Pilot,” plus the Gunnery skill so you can shoot from your vehicles.
Pg 266, VR and Rigging
The control rig allows you to treat Vehicle actions the same way you treat Matrix actions, so any bonus you get to Matrix actions also apply to Vehicle actions when you’re jumped in; this includes Vehicle Control Tests, Gunnery Tests, and Sensor Tests.
... If you’re using hot-sim, you get +3D6 (4D6 total) Initiative dice, and a +1 dice pool bonus that applies to all Matrix test (including Vehicle actions)
Guess that means the rigger booster nanoware gives + rating to gunnery tests too
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So given the above, and assuming you're not running multiple of the same drone, wouldn't it be better to run with a Deck and slave your drones to the deck and utilize it's higher firewall to protect you and your drones?
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So given the above, and assuming you're not running multiple of the same drone, wouldn't it be better to run with a Deck and slave your drones to the deck and utilize it's higher firewall to protect you and your drones?
If you're running a mix of drones, then the Autosoft sharing isn't a huge benefit. But the Noise reduction may be, if you want to fly them all over town from the comfort of your living room. And the ability to immediately transition from one to another in a single action, instead of 2 actions (1 to disengage, 1 to enter) speeds up your activities.
Still, I would agree a Deck or Commlink might be better for the Firewall. Though Decks are significantly more expensive than Commlinks or RCCs.
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Well if you are already in VR it's only a simple action to jump into a drone.
So jumping out to VR = simple action + jumping in from VR = simple action so jumping from drone to another via a Deck and staying in VR while doing it is the same action economy as using a Rig (complex action to jump from one drone to another).
So the only benefit of an RCC ends up being noise reduction (assuming your operating different drones types), right?
Which, is pretty meaningless considering all the ways you can achieve noise reduction in Srun 5e (heck the datajack that comes with your Control Rig includes some noise reduction).
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I can argue the RCC is probably better for decking than a cyber deck runs more programs too, cheaper too just mod in a sleaze rating run smoke and mirrors get noise reduction gear run virtual machine and you still have 5 program slots sure you dont have attack but if you have to use attack you're pretty much boned anyways, which is kinda ironic the cyberdeck is probably better for rigging purposes cause you actually get a sleaze stat already which you will want in order to run silent, also if you have a sneaky decker trying to sneak marks onto you you have an attack attribute to data spike the sob
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You know, I never noticed that Riggers transitioning was a Complex action. I thought they used the Switch Interface Mode Simple action. So the RCC would give them an extra Simple after the transition.
Control Rigs do not provide Noise reduction. They have DNI and a meter of cable, so it's like a free Datajack. But that doesn't mean it is a free Datajack. They would have listed the Noise reduction wireless bonus again if that were the case.
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That bonus for jumping in/ out via RCC only helps if you are otherwise NOT in VR already.
If you are in VR already (via a comlink or deck) and stay in VR then it's the same as having an RCC.
ok re: datajack vs/ control rig data cable that's an interesting fine distinction there Marcus.
Good point!
+ Wouldn't Remote Control being the same as Control Device (which is a matrix action) mean you sub logic for agility when using Remote Control Gunnery?
You know, I never noticed that Riggers transitioning was a Complex action. I thought they used the Switch Interface Mode Simple action. So the RCC would give them an extra Simple after the transition.
Control Rigs do not provide Noise reduction. They have DNI and a meter of cable, so it's like a free Datajack. But that doesn't mean it is a free Datajack. They would have listed the Noise reduction wireless bonus again if that were the case.
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That bonus for jumping in/ out via RCC only helps if you are otherwise NOT in VR already.
If you are in VR already (via a comlink or deck) and stay in VR then it's the same as having an RCC.
Uh, sorry but it's really not. If you are jumped into drone A and want to jump into drone B then it requires two actions (either two simple actions or a simple and a complex action depending on the situation) unless you have an RCC. You have to first jump out of drone A then jump into drone B. Only with an RCC can you jump directly from one drone to another.
TAKING THE JUMP
If you want to jump into a vehicle (or drone, or turret, or articulated six-axis arc welder), there are some prerequisites. You need an implanted control rig (if you don’t have that, you’re in the wrong chapter), you need to be the owner of or have three marks on the vehicle or drone you’re jumping into, and of course you need the vehicle to have rigger interface gear. Jumping into a vehicle is a Complex Action if you’re in AR, or a Simple Action if you’re already in VR when you make the jump. If you’re using a direct connection and already plugged into the vehicle or RCC, you can jump into a vehicle directly from your meat body by taking a Simple Action.
JUMPING OUT
When you want to jump out of a vehicle, drone, or other device, you use the Switch Interface Mode action (see Switch Interface Action Mode, p. 243) to go to VR or AR. If you’re using a rigger command console, you can instead use the Jump into Rigged Device action to jump directly to another device on your PAN. If the vehicle, drone, or device you’re jumped into is destroyed while you’re jumped in, you suffer dumpshock (6 DV biofeedback damage, p. 229).
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Am I missing something or does two simple actions not equal one complex action?
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Am I missing something or does two simple actions not equal one complex action?
yeah I'm pretty sure you only get two simple or one complex per round and doing just one simple still doesn't leave time for a complex.
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Am I missing something or does two simple actions not equal one complex action?
yeah I'm pretty sure you only get two simple or one complex per round and doing just one simple still doesn't leave time for a complex.
However, does jumping then leave you a Simple to ... I don't know ... shoot?
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It would, but I thought jumping in was a complex action.
Hence my comment.
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It would, but I thought jumping in was a complex action.
Hence my comment.
There does seem to be some confusion in the book as to what action it takes to move between drones. It says getting out of the drone is a Switch Interface, which is a Simple action. Presumably, you would use another Switch Interface to get into another drone. Or if you have an RCC, you can swap straight from one to the other with a single Simple action, leaving you an extra Simple left over that round.
However, the book says that Jumping In is a Complex action. Which I initially thought was referring to the very first Jump when you go from upright and conscious, into the drone in VR. But it could also be every time you occupy a new drone, which would completely waste the point of an RCC.
So yeah, I'd say chalk up another "oops" in the writing. The only thing that makes sense is to say a Rigger with a Commlink needs to spend 2 Simple actions to get out, and back into, their drones. Where a Rigger with an RCC spends a single Simple to swap, giving them a little bit of time to do something else.
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All gunnery using Drones (even jumped in) is a complex action. So the idea of leaving a simple action to attack is killed on the other end not by the act of jumping in whether it is a simple action or a complex one move between them. That is stated under drone gunnery.
I will be posting a massive change to this post because a lot of it is wrong. I found my notes and will have a ton of page numbers and quotes which is why I have not posted yet, I am writing it all up offline and updating it all at once so that I don't get complaints about a few missing spots I have not filled in yet. It will also includes sensor tests (active targeting as a spate entry) as well as vehicle skill tests all with with quotes and page numbers and cleaned up as much as possible.
TWO BIG NOTES:
1. The first and biggest thing is control rigs only add to LIMITS not dice pools.
2. The bonus for being in VR applies to the LIMIT, where the bonus for hot-sim applies to DEVICE POOL. They are separate bonuses entirely and saying they "stack" is miss leading. They both add independent changes. Hopefully this will stop some of the debate about if they stack since they are not even adding to the same thing.
- Initiaive is NOT a SKILL TEST, and has NO LIMIT or opposition test so most bonuses don't apply and since there is a specific rule for dice pools for hot and cold sim there is not conflict and you know it does not get the hot-sim bonus. Please stop using that as a reference of why everything else is wrong. Its not even relevant.
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All shooting by Drones (even jumped in) is a complex action. So the idea of leaving a simple action to attack is killed on the other end not by the act of jumping in whether it is a simple action or a complex one move between them. That is stated under drone gunnery.
I will be posting a massive change to this post because a lot of it is wrong. I found my notes and will have a ton of page numbers and quotes which is why I have not posted yet, I am writing it all up offline and updating it all at once so that I don't get complaints about a few missing spots I have not filled in yet. It will also includes sensor tests (active targeting as a spate entry) as well as vehicle skill tests all with with quotes and page numbers and cleaned up as much as possible.
TWO BIG NOTES:
1. The first and biggest thing is control rigs only add to LIMITS not dice pools.
2. The bonus for being in VR applies to the LIMIT, where the bonus for hot-sim applies to DEVICE POOL. They are separate bonuses entirely and saying they "stack" is miss leading. They both add independent changes. Hopefully this will stop some of the debate about if they stack since they are not even adding to the same thing.
- Initiaive is NOT a SKILL TEST, and has NO LIMIT or opposition test so most bonuses don't apply and since there is a specific rule for dice pools for hot and cold sim there is not conflict and you know it does not get the hot-sim bonus. Please stop using that as a reference of why everything else is wrong. Its not even relevant.
* First off...
Core pg 452, Control Rig
When you’re jumped into a vehicle or drone, the control rig provides its Rating as a dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests. Additionally, the rating of your control rig is added to the Handling and Speed of any vehicle you are jumped into. As if that was not enough, your Vehicle Test thresholds are reduced by the rating of your control rig (to a minimum of 1), again when you’re jumped in.
Control Rig rating is applied to...
Vehicle stats, which become the Limits
Vehicle skill checks
And Vehicle skill check Thresholds
* Second off...
The bonus for being in VR applies to the dice pools, not to the Limits. It's never applied to the Limits.
* Lastly...
Initiative doesn't have anything to do with the Control Rig, you are correct. However, the Rigger section does have a paragraph which talks about what happens in general to a Rigger in VR. And it clearly states certain amounts of extra Initiative dice, as well as extra bonuses to Matrix actions (which vehicle actions count). That's why we're arguing the Initiative front, it is relevant. When the Rigger Initiative specifically lists different amounts of Initiative than a Decker, and then lists different amounts of bonus dice for Hot Sim... and then someone comes along and says "Oh, one of those bonuses is supposed to stack. The book doesn't even remotely hint at the fact, but that's what we meant to say."
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Yeah most of your last post above is incorrect Clayton.
Marcus' point: "When the Rigger Initiative specifically lists different amounts of Initiative than a Decker, and then lists different amounts of bonus dice for Hot Sim... and then someone comes along and says "Oh, one of those bonuses is supposed to stack. The book doesn't even remotely hint at the fact, but that's what we meant to say." is accurate and on the money.
Specific trumps general and in this instance the rigger receives specific bonuses for hot sim vr that are different and noted as different in the rigger section in the two paragraphs I quoted previously.
Nowhere does it note that they stack with other VR hotsim bonuses and the most obvious indication that they do not is that they would have said "an additional" or other note to indicate they do indeed stack.
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* First off...
Core pg 452, Control Rig
Control Rig rating is applied to...
Vehicle stats, which become the Limits
Vehicle skill checks
And Vehicle skill check Thresholds
---Ok, Thinking about it I was looking at the entry for matrix actions for vehicles where it lists rigs p201, 207, 230 <-- from memory not 100% sure on the pages. But I may have made the classic mistake of checking the gear entry. I know I looked at the rigger entry for limits and the one above. I sent and email and will add this back in and re-align my upcoming changes to the post. Thanks for catching my over site. Its why I am asking. As you posted before... so many scattered pieces its hard to put it all together and why they didn't make a section in Rigger5.0 and detail rigger combat instead of pointing back to the book that is confusing everyone I will never understand. I like the tables and gear options they added... well except the absence of RCC anything. --- I will add the rig back to the pools on the first page now since you list quote and page--- But I will update all of it later.
* Second off...
The bonus for being in VR applies to the dice pools, not to the Limits. It's never applied to the Limits.
This one I will have to double check, because when I was looking at the book last night I copied over the exact quote in the book. That's when I noticed it says limits. With that said, its possible it is one of many that lists bonuses scattered around all over the book. In some ways that worries me more because if that is the case and we are talking about 2 different entries then it starts another "is this a typo" conversation or it means VR adds 1 to limit and pool. Prior to looking at the entry last night I was in complete agreement with you. So its possible I confused something as well. Again, I will add the quote and page tonight I hope.
* Lastly...
Initiative doesn't have anything to do with the Control Rig, you are correct. However, the Rigger section does have a paragraph which talks about what happens in general to a Rigger in VR. And it clearly states certain amounts of extra Initiative dice, as well as extra bonuses to Matrix actions (which vehicle actions count). That's why we're arguing the Initiative front, it is relevant. When the Rigger Initiative specifically lists different amounts of Initiative than a Decker, and then lists different amounts of bonus dice for Hot Sim... and then someone comes along and says "Oh, one of those bonuses is supposed to stack. The book doesn't even remotely hint at the fact, but that's what we meant to say."
This one, I have no idea. I though there was only the one matrix initiative and misunderstood people as saying the device pools for initiative are derived from VR bonuses applying to them and everyone is disputing what those bonus are. As initiative is not a skill test and it says in at least 2 places that matrix initiative is the same INT + REA + 2D6 matrix, INT + REA + 3D6 cold-sim, INT + REA + 4D6 hot-sim <-- from head, not book could be wrong.
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Made my First Edit to add page numbers and quoted text. I still have a number of corrections to make and Intend to add, perception/sensor tests, surprise test, active targeting, initiative, update defense, add defensive driving to include Rigger5.0 upgrades, and Damage. Then hopefully I will be able to play a fight from beginning to end as a rigger an not have questions. If there are some questions that just can't be answered with the book, I will try to make a consolidated questions list to submit to FAQ for answers.
Please feel free to correct anything you see as wrong!!! I am making this as guide for me because I am lost. It would be preferred however if you could back it up with a page number and maybe a quote. There are a few things being said I can find no record of.
Examples:
1. VR adds to dice pools. I only see the entry on SR5 p201 that says they add to limits
2. Initiative being different some how. I found 3 separate entries that say, "INT + REA + 2D6 matrix, INT + REA + 3D6 cold-sim, INT + REA + 4D6 hot-sim" but nothing that contradicts but I will add my notes when add/update the initiative section.