Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Pap Renvela on <02-14-16/0323:14>
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From my reading of SG and specifically the Magician's Way, the RAW answer is the metamagics listed under the Undecided Way plus the metamagics under what ever Way they follow. Additionally, if and only if a mystic adept follows the Magician's Way, any non-adept metamagic they meet the perquisite for.
Of course the RAW answer isn't the right answer for everyone...
agree or disagree with the above; discerning minds want to know.
PS this is not a thread about the merits of Ways or whether their cost is appropriate. That can be its own thread.
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I believe this is the correct Rules as Written and Rules as Intended interpretation.
It makes Mystic Adepts more of a niche things without a lot of investment and I think that's the point of them. You have a lot of freedom, yes, but it takes a lot of investment to be any good in any realm.
Want to go toe to toe with Mages? Gotta get that Magician's Way.
Want to go toe to toe with Adepts? Gotta get those Power Points from Initiation.
Want to be a decent astral scout? Gotta get that Astral Perception power, even if it's only a Qi Focus.
They're a grab bag of stuff and I think Magician's Way keeps that grab-bag element quite nicely.
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Where does it say that mystic adepts can't take normal metamagics? I seem to have missed that when I initiated and I just looked but to no avail.
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Where does it say that mystic adepts can't take normal metamagics? I seem to have missed that when I initiated and I just looked but to no avail.
What is oft-cited is this statement in SG's Magician's Way: "Unlike their physical counterparts, mystic adepts following this Way have access to all non-adept metamagic abilities for which they meet the prerequisites."
Which, you'll note, is hardly an affirmative statement of "mystic adepts cannot normally take non-adept metamagics."
Of course, why a statement like "mystic adepts can't take non-adept metamagics" wasn't included in the core, if that was the intent, is unknown. The author even said the intent wasn't to prevent MysAds from taking magician metamagics.
So whatever. More editing fails and poor communication. Story of this edition.
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Core has Adept Only Metamagics but not the other way round. They just say that some of them would be pretty useless to them.
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Note also that the quotes statement from the Magician's Way can also be interpreted as a restatement, not a new allowance. As in, "remember, Mystic Adepts can take the magician metamagics too." I'm not looking at the book right now, but if I recall correctly, that part doesn't include wording that indicates it explicitly as "the Magician's Way also gives this ability to Mystic Adepts."
Plus as others have pointed out, the books never specifically indicate that an adept cannot learn metamagics through the arts just like magicians.
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Of course, why a statement like "mystic adepts can't take non-adept metamagics" wasn't included in the core, if that was the intent, is unknown. The author even said the intent wasn't to prevent MysAds from taking magician metamagics.
Could you show me where the author says that? That's a solid reference and I'd like to put it on the wiki.
Part of the thrust of this project is to provide sourced reasons for rulings. I can see that there is a lack of clarity on the Magician's Way. A direct reference saying that that is not the intention would trump the lack of clarity. However, as in most things, hearsay is inadmissable.
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Where does it say that mystic adepts can't take normal metamagics? I seem to have missed that when I initiated and I just looked but to no avail.
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They are mystic adepts.
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Where does it say that mystic adepts can't take normal metamagics? I seem to have missed that when I initiated and I just looked but to no avail.
It doesn't say this anywhere. There is no basis beyond people misreading one line in one quality in Street Grimoire. IMHO, these are people who still aren't happy even though their complaints about them to begin with resulted in an overkill increase in Power Point cost (5 is out of line entirely, perhaps an increase MAY have been needed but 4 would have sufficed).
It would just be nice if people realized that no option in any game is inherently "overpowered" on its own. It is only what some may do with it that can become such. Players who do not do such shenanigans should NOT have to suffer because of those who do.
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Where does it say that mystic adepts can't take normal metamagics? I seem to have missed that when I initiated and I just looked but to no avail.
They are mystic adepts.
Plain language readings of mechanical terms of art are not persuasive when we're discussing technical writing.
even though their complaints about them to begin with resulted in an overkill increase in Power Point cost (5 is out of line entirely, perhaps an increase MAY have been needed but 4 would have sufficed).
It would just be nice if people realized that no option in any game is inherently "overpowered" on its own. It is only what some may do with it that can become such. Players who do not do such shenanigans should NOT have to suffer because of those who do.
First of all, oh please. Point to where the errata states that PP karma costs were changed because of player complaints.
Second of all, 5 karma each to add largely passive always-on powers onto a full casting and summoning chassis is completely fair. Oh no you used all your chargen karma on great powers? I have no sympathy. because frankly it's the obvious optimal decision and you'd be stupid not to do this. It's not punishing anyone to make the clearly best possible choice have a true cost associated. Even at 5 karma a pop it's a no brainer to max out PP. It was even more of a no brainer at 3 karma. Maybe there's more of a weighing to occur now. And that's ok.
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There are only Adept Only metamagics. There are no metamagics that are Mage Only.
For instance, it is fully legitimate for an Adept to take the Quickening Metamagic. There's nothing that prohibits it. It's only useful if you're a Mystic Adept or have the Adept Spell power.
If someone could get me that author reference that this reading was not intended, that'd be AWESOME.
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Text in the Magician's Way Descirption, SG 178
Unlike their physical counterparts, mystic adepts following this Way have access to all non-adept metamagic abilities for which they meet the prerequisites.
My assumption from this, as well as in the opening of the Physical Arts section (156) that adepts can learn Undecided Way metamagics regardless of their Way, is that:
Adepts/Mystic Adepts can only learn Metamagics of a specific Way or the Undecided Way, UNLESS they are a mystic adept that takes the Magician's Way.
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If someone could get me that author reference that this reading was not intended, that'd be AWESOME.
I only heard about it like thirdhand, sorry.
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Sad day.
I'm hearing that there is no real consensus on this and no final reference. That's something that I can document in the wiki. Both readings are valid and neither is confirmed as correct.
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Sad day.
I'm hearing that there is no real consensus on this and no final reference. That's something that I can document in the wiki. Both readings are valid and neither is confirmed as correct.
The appropriate way IMHO would be to quote the Magician's Way sentence and then to note that there is disagreement whether this was intended to limit Mystic Adepts from taking non-adept metamagics otherwise. And of course, no official clarification from Catalyst.
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Presented here are some of the higher arts a magician can initiate into—either alone, through a group, or with a school. Each specific art encompasses a list of rituals, enchantments, and metamagics. When a magician first initiates into the art, he learns one available ritual, enchantment, or metamagic for free, barring any prerequisites. A magician can learn additional advanced rituals and enchantments within that category by spending the same amount of time and Karma that would be required to initiate to his or her current initiate grade (p. 325, SR5). For each new metamagical technique, however, the magician will need to initiate to the next grade to gain that new metamagic. Street Grimoire p. 139
Notice something?
It's not about awakened individuals, it's only about magicians.
And since mystic adepts are adepts and not magicians they can't initiate into the higher arts by default.
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Presented here are some of the higher arts a magician can initiate into—either alone, through a group, or with a school. Each specific art encompasses a list of rituals, enchantments, and metamagics. When a magician first initiates into the art, he learns one available ritual, enchantment, or metamagic for free, barring any prerequisites. A magician can learn additional advanced rituals and enchantments within that category by spending the same amount of time and Karma that would be required to initiate to his or her current initiate grade (p. 325, SR5). For each new metamagical technique, however, the magician will need to initiate to the next grade to gain that new metamagic. Street Grimoire p. 139
Notice something?
It's not about awakened individuals, it's only about magicians.
And since mystic adepts are adepts and not magicians they can't initiate into the higher arts by default.
I am in the boat that syas Mystic Adepts have to take the magician's way to get non-adept metamagics. But as to your argument:
• Mystic adepts are a combination of magicians and adepts.
CRB p69
So they are magicians.
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I found this (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17274.msg305438#msg305438) this weekend and from what Giabralter says (whom I believe is a writter for Street Grimoire) it seems that mystic adepts can take normal metamagics, but I could be reading it wrong. What do you guys think?
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I am in the boat that syas Mystic Adepts have to take the magician's way to get non-adept metamagics. But as to your argument:
• Mystic adepts are a combination of magicians and adepts.
CRB p69
So they are magicians.
Except that those red boxes don't contain rules texts but explanations and Information.
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I am in the boat that syas Mystic Adepts have to take the magician's way to get non-adept metamagics. But as to your argument:
• Mystic adepts are a combination of magicians and adepts.
CRB p69
So they are magicians.
Except that those red boxes don't contain rules texts but explanations and Information.
Let's disregard the red boxes.
What sentence in the CRB or SG says mystic adepts are not magicians?
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I am in the boat that syas Mystic Adepts have to take the magician's way to get non-adept metamagics. But as to your argument:
• Mystic adepts are a combination of magicians and adepts.
CRB p69
So they are magicians.
Except that those red boxes don't contain rules texts but explanations and Information.
"Rules explanations and information about rules, are not rules."
Okay.
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I looked at my roommate and asked her if game rules are explanations and information.
She said 'yes'.
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Where in the CRB is written that orcs are not snakes?
Magician is a specific rules term, which your character has to buy at chargen. If she/he doesn't -say because Mystic Adept was chosen instead- then she/he isn't a magician. Where is the problem?
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Magician is a specific rules term, which your character has to buy at chargen.
Rules term yes, but a Magician is a character that can Enchant, Conjure or Spellcast. A Mystic Adept is just a Magician that gets Adept Powers as well, can NEVER use Astral Projection and has to use a Power Point to use Astral Perception.
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Presented here are some of the higher arts a magician can initiate into—either alone, through a group, or with a school. Each specific art encompasses a list of rituals, enchantments, and metamagics. When a magician first initiates into the art, he learns one available ritual, enchantment, or metamagic for free, barring any prerequisites. A magician can learn additional advanced rituals and enchantments within that category by spending the same amount of time and Karma that would be required to initiate to his or her current initiate grade (p. 325, SR5). For each new metamagical technique, however, the magician will need to initiate to the next grade to gain that new metamagic. Street Grimoire p. 139
Notice something?
It's not about awakened individuals, it's only about magicians.
And since mystic adepts are adepts and not magicians they can't initiate into the higher arts by default.
I am in the boat that syas Mystic Adepts have to take the magician's way to get non-adept metamagics. But as to your argument:
• Mystic adepts are a combination of magicians and adepts.
CRB p69
So they are magicians.
Where in the CRB is written that orcs are not snakes?
Magician is a specific rules term, which your character has to buy at chargen. If she/he doesn't -say because Mystic Adept was chosen instead- then she/he isn't a magician. Where is the problem?
The problem is you are asserting something that is not RAW- the CRB says mystic adepts are magicians and adepts.
That the sentence is in white lettering on a red background doesn't mean it's less valid than black letters on a white background.
As proof that the red boxes include pertinent information to the rules: p39CRB, the extended test description is in red box as is the general rule of rounding (which only is located in that red box).
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My point is, that you have two uses of the word magician. One is the rules term one is the slang word for the bearded guy with the pointy head.
That Catalyst is incapable to keep them separated is not my fault. My apologies for not being accurate enough in my first post.
Personally I do neither see nor have a problem with Mysads getting metamagics from all over the place. If I think of mysads I picture them as those jack of all traits who can sink ridiculous amounts of karma in both fields of magic while giving up some options along the way.
I would not mind if there would have been two magic attributes. Magic and Qi. That would have made things more strait forward. All you'd need to clarify that chars with a qi ration of >0 cant project astrally. And maybe have magicians buy their astral perception as a separate perk. But that is going off topic, my bad. :/
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My point is, that you have two uses of the word magician. One is the rules term one is the slang word for the bearded guy with the pointy head.
That Catalyst is incapable to keep them separated is not my fault. My apologies for not being accurate enough in my first post.
Personally I do neither see nor have a problem with Mysads getting metamagics from all over the place. If I think of mysads I picture them as those jack of all traits who can sink ridiculous amounts of karma in both fields of magic while giving up some options along the way.
I would not mind if there would have been two magic attributes. Magic and Qi. That would have made things more strait forward. All you'd need to clarify that chars with a qi ration of >0 cant project astrally. And maybe have magicians buy their astral perception as a separate perk. But that is going off topic, my bad. :/
Sorry- but no- Catalyst didn't use magician in two different ways in that red box (which is where the rule definition for magician is located by the way). When they said under Mystic Adept that they are both magician and adept it is no different than how they said under Aspected Magician that they are a limited type of magician. In that red box titled magic users, only adepts have no line declaring them a magician.
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=23457.msg434964#msg434964
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=23457.msg435303#msg435303
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Point taken. While I did not mean that there are two meanings within that red box, it still seems like I was wrong.
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Is there anything in Street Grimoire that makes it clearer?
Otherwise I get the same feeling I would have if, say ... someone tried to explain how weapon mounts can hold however many hundred rounds of ammo, ignoring the weapon mount text in Rigger 5.
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Is there anything in Street Grimoire that makes it clearer?
To the contrary, Street Grimoire is the basis for the confusion.
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The problem is that a)mystic adepts where never suppose to be able to take non-adept metamagics and it was never conveyed in CRB or b)the writer of Magician's Way mistakenly thought A to be true when it's not.
I believe it's A but I see why there's a lost of people who think it's B.
And this is a simple yes no question but Catylyst has not said a peep even though it's been asked repeatedly.
My reason on A is not influenced by the power the power level of mystic adepts though a lot of pro-A answer want it to nerf what they believe is the overpoweredmystic adepts. Me, personally-had I designed adepts- their power points would have stayed at 2karma, they'd get astral perception for free but would have to be aspected(Conjurer, Enchanter or Sorcerer-not all three). But I'm not a developer so that's neither here nor there. Seriously it should cost no more than 4 karma per PP since no character should have to taake negative qualities just to get something that is integral to the character.
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The issue with A, is that there isn't really a rule that says Adepts have restricted access to metamagics. So even if you make the claim that Mystic Adepts aren't magicians (a difficult claim given some of the previous discussion) it is still not a reatriction. Assuming, of course, that some sort of revisionist extra rule wasn't left out of Street Grimoire.
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Unlike their physical counterparts, mystic adepts following this Way have access to all non-adept metamagic abilities for which they meet the prerequisites.
The way i read it (and mind you i have no opinion on this despite the grammatical interest) is this way:
Phys Ads and MysAds, can BOTH pick up the Magician Way.
PHYSADS who do take it, still only have access to adepts metas.
MYSADS who do take it, have access to all non-adept metas.
Which could mean EITHER, in no certain way which one is intended, that:
1-MysAds have access to them from the start OR
2-MysAds UNLOCK access to them through this way.
It makes, to me, NO reference to MysAds NOT part of the Magician's way.
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When they said under Mystic Adept that they are both magician and adept it is no different than how they said under Aspected Magician that they are a limited type of magician. In that red box titled magic users, only adepts have no line declaring them a magician.
So does that mean that Aspected Magicians can't pick up magicians metamagics? :P
I'd argue they could. They could even take metas for skills they can't have. They just wouldn't be able to use it/hence would be wasting it. BUT, they could!
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Mystic adepts are a combination of magicians and adepts.
This was the quote. But notice how it doesn't declare them being both or counting as both but instead just says they are a combination? You forgot the beginning of the box text:
Shadowrun has four distinct types of magic users: Adept, Magician, Aspected Magician, and Mystic Adept.
Throughout the book they mention the types that are applicable:
Learning Magic
Aspected magicians, magicians, and mystic adepts may purchase new spells, rituals, or preparations to use (see Magic, p. 276).
Additionally, aspected magicians can use only one category of Magic skills (Sorcery, Conjuring, or Enchanting), while magicians and mystic adepts are able to use the whole range of skills.
They took the magician and the adept and made something entirely new: the mystic adept.
Adepts automatically get power points when increasing their MAG Attribute, mystic adepts don't.
So by conclusion this would also mean that mystic adepts don't follow magic traditions ...
But let's take a look at several Fantasy games: Most would say that a Paladin is a combination of Fighter and Cleric or a Ranger is a combination of Druid and Fighter.
But they just combine abilities and don't count as their parent classes.
In Pathfinder they have hybrid classes. And they included rules texts for which aspects the hybrid counts as being one of their parent classes in terms of accessing their abilities.
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And in the Core Rulebook, the rules never mention any restrictions on initiation or metamagics based on the classifications except for the few metamagics that specify (Adepts Only).
By the strict definition that you lay out, Lucean, if we are going to read the phrase "Mystic adepts are a combination of magicians and adepts." and not follow that they "count" or "are" both magicians and adepts. Then by that assumption, they are neither, so I guess they shouldn't be able to take Adept Only metamagics or the Ways at all.
But we know that they can, because they are referenced as doing so specifically by the Way that this discussion is stemming from. And if Mystic Adepts don't follow traditions, I'm curious what sort of rules you would suggest for them to follow when casting spells. Tradition is what determines your Drain attributes, if Mystic Adepts don't have a tradition, they don't have any dice to resist drain from spells.
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Another issue is that in Street Grimoire under Expanded Grimoire page 102 it says "At the gamemaster's discretion, the spells in this chapter may be availible to magicians and mystic adepts..." So an aspected magician couldn't take em.
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And in the Core Rulebook, the rules never mention any restrictions on initiation or metamagics based on the classifications except for the few metamagics that specify (Adepts Only).
By the strict definition that you lay out, Lucean, if we are going to read the phrase "Mystic adepts are a combination of magicians and adepts." and not follow that they "count" or "are" both magicians and adepts. Then by that assumption, they are neither, so I guess they shouldn't be able to take Adept Only metamagics or the Ways at all.
But we know that they can, because they are referenced as doing so specifically by the Way that this discussion is stemming from. And if Mystic Adepts don't follow traditions, I'm curious what sort of rules you would suggest for them to follow when casting spells. Tradition is what determines your Drain attributes, if Mystic Adepts don't have a tradition, they don't have any dice to resist drain from spells.
The problem is Street Grimoire and the changed ruling for metamagics requiring to "initiate into the art", which by the text and the distinctions given above would rule mystic adepts out.
And I don't suggest anything about magic traditions. It's just another drop of water in an already overflowing bucket of bad quality control and merely served as an example.
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Interesting note, page 325, main book.
Some metamagics are for adepts only, and some are pretty useless to adepts.
The wording alone suggests they can take any, but it d be useless. it doesnt say "Some are for adepts, and some are for magicians only."
id argue an adept could take ANY metamagic..
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But since the Core Book has been overruled by Street Grimoire this note does not help.
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Which is why i said interesting, not decisive :P
Still. I get the debate. If MysAds have all access to start with, the Magician's Way quality is PARTICULARLY bad for 20 karma.
But if they don't, MysAds are just plain limited.
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But since the Core Book has been overruled by Street Grimoire this note does not help.
It's really not that clear.
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Which is why i said interesting, not decisive :P
Still. I get the debate. If MysAds have all access to start with, the Magician's Way quality is PARTICULARLY bad for 20 karma.
But if they don't, MysAds are just plain limited.
Even if MysAds have to buy the Magician's Way to buy non-Adept metamagics- they can't be reasonably called 'limited'.
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Which is why i said interesting, not decisive :P
Still. I get the debate. If MysAds have all access to start with, the Magician's Way quality is PARTICULARLY bad for 20 karma.
But if they don't, MysAds are just plain limited.
Even if MysAds have to buy the Magician's Way to buy non-Adept metamagics- they can't be reasonably called 'limited'.
If they weren't the ONLY character type that loses out permanently on an aspect of their character if they don't take any Negative Qualities, maybe. But, they are.
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Which is why i said interesting, not decisive :P
Still. I get the debate. If MysAds have all access to start with, the Magician's Way quality is PARTICULARLY bad for 20 karma.
But if they don't, MysAds are just plain limited.
If they're so horrible, why are there so many mysAds out there?
Technomancers on the other hand...
Even if MysAds have to buy the Magician's Way to buy non-Adept metamagics- they can't be reasonably called 'limited'.
If they weren't the ONLY character type that loses out permanently on an aspect of their character if they don't take any Negative Qualities, maybe. But, they are.
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Which is why i said interesting, not decisive :P
Still. I get the debate. If MysAds have all access to start with, the Magician's Way quality is PARTICULARLY bad for 20 karma.
But if they don't, MysAds are just plain limited.
Even if MysAds have to buy the Magician's Way to buy non-Adept metamagics- they can't be reasonably called 'limited'.
If they weren't the ONLY character type that loses out permanently on an aspect of their character if they don't take any Negative Qualities, maybe. But, they are.
If they're so horrible, why are there so many mysAds out there?
Technomancers on the other hand...
Technomancers are pretty bad off, but at least they can get good after they've gotten some karma.
The Mystic Adept, on the other hand, completely loses all opportunity to get any Power Points that he didn't get in generation no matter how much karma or cash he gets in play leaving him permanently behind the one that did get them. Just reducing the karma cost for those Power Points to 4 instead of 5 would make them more "in line".
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I agree that PP should be 4 so they don't need to get a negative quality if they want 6 at chargen.
However, it was the SR community that lobbied for the nerfing, Catalyst originally had it at 2 Karma.
And MysAds can always choose to take a PP upon initiating instead of a metamagic.
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I agree that PP should be 4 so they don't need to get a negative quality if they want 6 at chargen.
However, it was the SR community that lobbied for the nerfing, Catalyst originally had it at 2 Karma.
And MysAds can always choose to take a PP upon initiating instead of a metamagic.
Those that do get all of them at generation can do that as well, so they're still ahead.
And, it wasn't the entire community. It was a very vocal segment of forum population, and forum-goers (at least beyond the occasional browsing without signing up and posting) are actually a minority among the player base.
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I agree that PP should be 4 so they don't need to get a negative quality if they want 6 at chargen.
However, it was the SR community that lobbied for the nerfing, Catalyst originally had it at 2 Karma.
And MysAds can always choose to take a PP upon initiating instead of a metamagic.
Those that do get all of them at generation can do that as well, so they're still ahead.
And, it wasn't the entire community. It was a very vocal segment of forum population, and forum-goers (at least beyond the occasional browsing without signing up and posting) are actually a minority among the player base.
I'm not sure any other archetype sees as much vocal hatred as the MysAd. I remember the threads from the start of 5th Edition when the typo had it at 2 karma per power point. I proposed the cost at 4 karma per point, along with others, and there were a lot of posts that absolutely refused to accept that, with out anything of substance to back it up. Then again, back in 4th Edition when they were errata'd into being almost useless, there were still people who thought they were overpowered. /shrug
Since then I've slightly evolved my stance on them: If Catalyst refuses to completely rework them, then I still think it should be 4 karma per power point (not going to happen, I know). However, I think that aspected mages and MysAds should be combined together; the new MysAd would have power points equal to their magic score, and select either the Sorcery, Enchanting, or Conjuring Skill Group. Of course that would require that Catalyst would be willing to go back and make massive changes to those things that need it, which in the last word we heard (in the technomancer supplement thread) wasn't going to happen either. :-\
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There should be the possibility of being an Aspected Mystic Adept, but requiring it is nowhere near necessary.
I'm a firm believer that there should be "tiers" of Awakened, something like below.
1 - Full Magic Mystic Adept
2 - Full Magician
3 - Aspected Magic Mystic Adept
4 - Physical / Social / Mental Adept
5 - Aspected Sorcerer / Conjurer
6 - Aspected Enchanter
7 - Paracritter / Dual Natured Metasapients
The argument of "why play anything else" if something is more powerful is straight up a straw man. There is always a very good reason to play any of the others--because that's what you want to play.
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<< Realize that "double posting" is generally a no-no, but it's necessary here. >>
The character generation for Priority really should have looked something like this (in quotes to make it clean looking):
Metatype
A – Any
B – Any
C – Troll, Dwarf, Ork, Elf or Human
D – Ork, Elf or Human
E – Human
Top two Priorities required for Meta-variants, Shapeshifters and AIs
Attributes
A – 28
B – 24
C – 20
D – 16
E – 12
Skills and Skill Groups
A – 50 / 15
B – 40 / 10
C – 30 / 5
D – 20 / 2
E – 12 / 0
Special Attributes
A – 12
B – 10
C – 8
D – 6
E – 4
Three Special Attributes
Magic
Qi
Edge
If one buys neither Magic nor Qi, they're Mundane
If they buy Magic, they're Magician
If they buy Qi, they're Adept
If they buy both, they're Mystic Adept
Aspected is a 10 karma Negative Quality
Resources
A – 750,000
B – 450,000
C – 150,000
D – 75,000
E – 25,000
25 Karma in 'Finishing Touches' to round out the character
Knowledge Skills – (Logic + Intuition) x 3
Charisma x 3 “Contact Points”
Additional Contacts may be purchased for 1 Karma per point of Loyalty and Connection totaled together
Additional Contacts may also be purchased for 1,000 nuyen per point of Loyalty and Connection totaled together