[markelphoenix]

So, thinking about some of the discussions about grenades and balance, was wondering how one would roll rules wise of say, an Earth Spirit of sufficient force simply covering a grenade. If the spirit survives, would there be any blast dmg outside of ground zero where the spirit covered it? Is this even possible, or is this more of a thematic, "Depends on what your GM allows for services." area? Anyone know of any specific rules that would back this thinking up?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Well, yes, the overpressure/tamping/chunky salsa rules are ignored this time around. But if you're going to actively seek out in this corner, there's no reason the GM can't say the spirit is obliterated anyway. For example, just because a gun does 3P damage, you don't get to point it at your forehead, pull the trigger, and go "LOL I only take 3 damage".


Definitely a "GM decides what happens" kind of scenario, here.  With regards to the mitigating/dampening effect of the earth spirit smothering a grenade before it goes off...  Reduce the DV by the Force of the sacrificed spirit?  I'd probably go for such an answer if I were running a game where a Player wanted to try this.

[markelphoenix]

 Say a F6 Earth Spirit. Scenario I was thinking, F/2+8 is  the CM for an Earth Spirit, so 11. Subtract 6 DV from the 16DV GZ damage. that leaves 10DV. Earth Spirit still rolls Bod, so F+4 = 10. Lets assume he gets 3 hits. That is still 7 DV damage against a creature that is Immune to Normal Weapons, which leaves the Spirit at 4 CM. That isn't trivial damage for RAW, in regards to a spirit being at GZ damage.

[Xenon]

For now the only rules on how to deal with grenades is the Avoid Incoming Anytime Minor Action.

So, thinking about some of the discussions about grenades and balance, was wondering how one would roll rules wise of say, an Earth Spirit of sufficient force simply covering a grenade...

This is how it was resolved in an advanced supplement for 5th edition
(perhaps it can give you some ideas on how to resolve it in 6E).

Run n Gun p. 125 Dive on the Grenade
In the case of diving on the grenade, the character moves toward the grenade, still limited by available remaining Movement, and can choose to make a Drop Prone Free Action when reaching the grenade. The sacrifice means the character takes all the grenade damage and eliminates the blast. In the case of a gas grenade, this action cuts the effective radius in half.


Edit: A bigger question here might be how the spirit would know that a fist sized intangible mundane bouncing shadow is actually a grenade that is about to go off and that covering it with it's own materialized form will protect his summoner from blowing up....

[Lormyr]

Either end of the equation is firmly in GM discretion territory for SR6.

SR5 did have a rule for diving on grenades in run and gun. We may see something similar down the pipe.

. . .or they could just listen to SSDR and fix shit. Hail to the king baby! :p

[markelphoenix]

For now the only rules on how to deal with grenades is the Avoid Incoming Anytime Minor Action.

So, thinking about some of the discussions about grenades and balance, was wondering how one would roll rules wise of say, an Earth Spirit of sufficient force simply covering a grenade...

This is how it was resolved in an advanced supplement for 5th edition
(perhaps it can give you some ideas on how to resolve it in 6E).

Run n Gun p. 125 Dive on the Grenade
In the case of diving on the grenade, the character moves toward the grenade, still limited by available remaining Movement, and can choose to make a Drop Prone Free Action when reaching the grenade. The sacrifice means the character takes all the grenade damage and eliminates the blast. In the case of a gas grenade, this action cuts the effective radius in half.


Edit: A bigger question here might be how the spirit would know that a fist sized intangible mundane bouncing shadow is actually a grenade that is about to go off and that covering it with it's own materialized form will protect his summoner from blowing up....

Yeah, it gets....mirky for me. Spirits have Sapience. Spirits also have Mental stats. FxI and FxL, combined with mental link, add to that the Search power, which clearly states they have to Manifest to do final leg of searching for an Inanimate object, and given that some spirits have enhanced physicla senses (hearing, low light vision, smell), there is strong supporting evidence that when manifested, spirits are capable of seeing more than just astral forms, as well as capable of understanding sufficiently what objects are so that they can execute a service.

The critter must have seen the thing it’s searching
for at some point before the search begins.
Spirits may search for anything for which their
summoner can provide them a mental image. Critters
who can enter astral space may use this power
there but still need to materialize while searching
for an inanimate target in the physical world. Living
things with auras can be searched for from the
astral plane.

This is sufficient evidence, imo, that a spirit can understand what grenades look like and, as long as they are manifested, can see them clearly using their none astral senses.

[markelphoenix]

Also, from Services section on pg 147 CRB

...“Take this
package to Mr. Johnson at the research facility” or
“Distract those guards for ten minutes”...

are two examples of valid spirit services, which shows that:
1) Spirit understands the concepts you share of Mr. Johnson at a research facility (specific person hood and specific physical world location)
2) Is capable of understanding none precise commands, "those guards" and specific time durations "for ten minutes"

Don't know why there seems to be a desire to put spirits in bubble of either incompetent other worldly entity or malicious genies.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Well Spirits are essentially alien intelligences.  A Force 12 Spirit of Fire is obviously way smarter than its summoner can ever be.  It can probably school physics professors and engage in the most pedantic debates imaginable with a Spirit of Earth regarding the comparison of mafic vs felsic magma.

But know the difference between a grenade and a commlink?  Those are both examples of metahuman technology that are utterly alien to the denizens of the metaplanes.''

But all of the above is besides the point.  A spirit WON'T throw itself on a grenade.  Not unless it was commanded to do so as a service, and that's an order coming from the summoner so it really doesn't matter if the spirit knows what's about to happen as a result of its order... all that is relevant is whether the summoner knows the grenade for what it is...

[0B]

Maybe an ally spirit might? I guess then it's "wait and see what the magic book says," in that case

[Lormyr]

But all of the above is besides the point.  A spirit WON'T throw itself on a grenade.  Not unless it was commanded to do so as a service, and that's an order coming from the summoner so it really doesn't matter if the spirit knows what's about to happen as a result of its order... all that is relevant is whether the summoner knows the grenade for what it is...

Well, consider for a moment a summoner that bothers to take 60 seconds to educate a spirit on what a grenade is and how it works. Then consider that a sufficiently high force (10+, depending on type) spirit is unlikely to even be bothered by a grenade. I can conceive of scenarios where a spirit might not care if a grenade explodes underneath of it. I mean if I was a Force 12 earth spirit I might just chew them from time to time to intimidate mortals for kicks.

[Xenon]

...given that some spirits have enhanced physicla senses (hearing, low light vision, smell), there is strong supporting evidence that when manifested, spirits are capable of seeing more than just astral forms...

I agree, Well, if it wasn't for this sentence that is:

SR5 p. 301 Spirits Basics
When materialized, the spirit uses astral perception (its only perception) to perceive the physical world.

But perhaps this was fixed in SR6?



(I am assuming you meant materialize and not manifest?)

...which clearly states they have to Manifest to do final leg of searching for an Inanimate object...

...that when manifested, spirits are capable of...

... as long as they are manifested, can see them clearly using their none astral senses...

...still need to materialize while searching
for an inanimate target in the...

SR5 p. 314 Manifesting
Unlike the Materialization power of spirits (p. 314), manifesting doesn’t give you a physical form, so you can’t interact with anything physically (or be harmed by physical attacks).

SR5 p. 398 Materialization
...many astral critters can project themselves into the physical world and form a temporary “body” to inhabit while they’re here. This lets them interact with, and affect, physical beings.

[markelphoenix]

...given that some spirits have enhanced physicla senses (hearing, low light vision, smell), there is strong supporting evidence that when manifested, spirits are capable of seeing more than just astral forms...

I agree, Well, if it wasn't for this sentence that is:

SR5 p. 301 Spirits Basics
When materialized, the spirit uses astral perception (its only perception) to perceive the physical world.

But perhaps this was fixed in SR6?



(I am assuming you meant materialize and not manifest?)

...which clearly states they have to Manifest to do final leg of searching for an Inanimate object...

...that when manifested, spirits are capable of...

... as long as they are manifested, can see them clearly using their none astral senses...

...still need to materialize while searching
for an inanimate target in the...

SR5 p. 314 Manifesting
Unlike the Materialization power of spirits (p. 314), manifesting doesn’t give you a physical form, so you can’t interact with anything physically (or be harmed by physical attacks).

SR5 p. 398 Materialization
...many astral critters can project themselves into the physical world and form a temporary “body” to inhabit while they’re here. This lets them interact with, and affect, physical beings.

Yes, meant Materialization and am using only SR6 references.

[Sir Ludwig]

Assuming if it is allowed, IF it becomes a habit I would think Spirit Etiquette (6th CRB p 149), could come into play.

Best,
SL

[markelphoenix]

Assuming if it is allowed, IF it becomes a habit I would think Spirit Etiquette (6th CRB p 149), could come into play.

Best,
SL

In general, I agree. I do think if the very next action or two the Summoner makes is healing the Spirit, I think it would allay any sort of hard feelings. I imagine it would be worst for the spirit to be disrupted, which is much more likely to happen against an Awakened threat, which is often times what they are used for.