Shadowrun
Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: Mara on <03-23-11/0517:48>
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OK..first, I am surprised no-one has started a thread on this yet!
Or was everyone waiting for someone else to?
Anyway...
First, I am glad that I only saw a few bad typos. Much better then previous books, in my
opinion. I loved the little "Basic Shadowrun survival skills, brought to you by DocWagon" section.
Oh that end was brilliant! Also, alot of it is useful to veteran players as well as newbies, considering
how few veteran players in my experience will think to things like, when doing leg work, ask if anyone
else has been asking the same sorts of questions.
The musicians section is kind of neat, though, I have to say that I am surprised the only mention of JetBlack
was in the "lows." Of course, considering we all know he is a) still alive and b) a vampire...well...hey that is
understandable. I have to admit that I found the bands intriguing, and a little fun. Astral Lightning with a spirit
doing a 12 minute drum solo when the mage lost control, or the Troll Jazz singer, Barry Mana(seriously? Talk about
a clever reference there..)
This is, of course, just my very initial impressions of this book. I also liked how Jason seems to have used the commentary
about Caution Tape Girl on the other forums as a great idea for the actual discussion of the nature of the book.
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Questions: (or possible errata fodder)
1. What's this "China" place?
Page 56, which China was Ahi a slave to? Page 100, what parts of China do the NPL operate in? Which China does does the CBA operate in?
China is like the US of A. It doesn't exist in Shadowrun. The area is now Shaanxi, the Canton Confederation, Henan, etc. etc. Recommended reading, Shadows of Asia.
2. Regarding CrimeTime:
Page 50:
> it’s not total rumors. Poor bastard has been fed BtLs from the Vory for some time. it was the leash that led Crimetime around to shit gigs, smuggling for the puppet masters. or’zet was his path to break the habit.
> Red anya
Page 142, Red Anya's entry on CrimeTime:
There are essentially two narratives. In one, he is nothing more than a poser and a moneymaking machine for the Vory. He’s actually doubly pro table, because his music and touring makes Hez Music good money, and CrimeTime spends a good portion of his share of the dough on Vory-supplied BTLs and narcotics. In the other narrative, CrimeTime is exactly as tough as he says he is, and he is one the Vory’s most trusted negotiators. When he’s touring, he uses his downtime to make the rounds in whatever city he’s in and works to settle disputes the Vory may have with local individuals and business owners.
It would seem that Red Anya is having difficulty making up her mind as to whether CrimeTime is a beetle head or not. So is he or isn't he?
3. Pirate or independent?
On page 108, we're introduced to Hillary Rodregaz who published an amazing feminist manifesto, Portrait of Woman in the 21st Century. Horizon rejects it though an editor secretly tells her to continue writing as it was amazing. So she went through an independent publisher (who apparently trafficked in stolen intellectual property to subsidize its income, but I think that's beside the point) who distributed it as a freebie. The section says this action was illegal. How, exactly, was publishing something for free (I'm assuming Rodregaz gave the pirate [or are they independent?] publisher permission) illegal? I'm assuming Horizon pressured local governments to ban her work because she rejected them after the fact, but how is what she was doing before that illegal?
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Answers under individual questions.
Questions: (or possible errata fodder)
1. What's this "China" place?
Page 56, which China was Ahi a slave to? Page 100, what parts of China do the NPL operate in? Which China does does the CBA operate in?
China is like the US of A. It doesn't exist in Shadowrun. The area is now Shaanxi, the Canton Confederation, Henan, etc. etc. Recommended reading, Shadows of Asia.
There is no nation called "China" in 2073, but that does not mean people don't use it as a regional designation (note that in baseball, there is an NAL, the North American League, despite the fact that there is no "North America" nation). Ahi might not be clear on where she was precisely when she was rescued, so she uses the regional descriptor
Also, allow me to point out that the author of the sports section was one of the co-writers of the southeast Asia portion of Shadows of Asia, so I'm pretty sure he's aware of that book's existence.
2. Regarding CrimeTime:
Page 50:
> it’s not total rumors. Poor bastard has been fed BtLs from the Vory for some time. it was the leash that led Crimetime around to shit gigs, smuggling for the puppet masters. or’zet was his path to break the habit.
> Red anya
Page 142, Red Anya's entry on CrimeTime:
There are essentially two narratives. In one, he is nothing more than a poser and a moneymaking machine for the Vory. He’s actually doubly pro table, because his music and touring makes Hez Music good money, and CrimeTime spends a good portion of his share of the dough on Vory-supplied BTLs and narcotics. In the other narrative, CrimeTime is exactly as tough as he says he is, and he is one the Vory’s most trusted negotiators. When he’s touring, he uses his downtime to make the rounds in whatever city he’s in and works to settle disputes the Vory may have with local individuals and business owners.
It would seem that Red Anya is having difficulty making up her mind as to whether CrimeTime is a beetle head or not. So is he or isn't he?
When posting a shadowtalk comment, JackPointers generally vocalize their own personal opinions; when writing body text, they often strive to move beyond their own opinions and present more of an overview. In the latter section, Red Anya points out that there are varying opinions about CrimeTime, which is important to know in any overview of a person; in the former section, we see which side of the debate she falls on.
3. Pirate or independent?
On page 108, we're introduced to Hillary Rodregaz who published an amazing feminist manifesto, Portrait of Woman in the 21st Century. Horizon rejects it though an editor secretly tells her to continue writing as it was amazing. So she went through an independent publisher (who apparently trafficked in stolen intellectual property to subsidize its income, but I think that's beside the point) who distributed it as a freebie. The section says this action was illegal. How, exactly, was publishing something for free (I'm assuming Rodregaz gave the pirate [or are they independent?] publisher permission) illegal? I'm assuming Horizon pressured local governments to ban her work because she rejected them after the fact, but how is what she was doing before that illegal?
The fact that the publisher is trafficking in stolen intellectual property is entirely not beside the point. Let's look at the whole text:
She found a publisher who had a pro fitable line of stolen ebooks that they use to fund their own publications. They started packaging her book in with bundles of older, similar books. So the savvy book reader looking for an old copy of Tolstoy or Kerouac would be pleasantly surprised to find they got a bonus copy of something they may well like, and they’d take a look at it. Through these illegal avenues, Rodregaz built a fan base and eventually started outselling some of her legitimate competitors.
When her books were sold, they were packaged with stolen intellectual property. The selling of the stolen intellectual property is what is referred to as "these illegal avenues."
I'll start an official errata thread for future comments so that I can know when to find them when compilation time comes.
Jason H.
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Okay, tabling the whole China thing and Red Anya's inconsistencies... Leo Tolstoy's works have been in the public domain since 1880 (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0866243/bio). A person can't steal or own them. Horizon can't swoop down and purchase the original Dawn of the Dead, Beethoven, Newton's formulas or the English language and control their distribution. There's literally no Intellectual Property so there's nothing to buy. The practice of a pirate organization "illegally selling" a Tolstoy/Rodregaz bundle doesn't even make sense.
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Okay, tabling the whole China thing and Red Anya's inconsistencies... Leo Tolstoy's works have been in the public domain since 1880 (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0866243/bio). A person can't steal or own them. Horizon can't swoop down and purchase the original Dawn of the Dead, Beethoven, Newton's formulas or the English language and control their distribution. There's literally no Intellectual Property so there's nothing to buy. The practice of a pirate organization "illegally selling" a Tolstoy/Rodregaz bundle doesn't even make sense.
You're assuming the copyright law in the Sixth World, along with its definitions of public domain, remain consistent with today's law. Given that RL corporations are currently working to change copyright law to benefit themselves, including changing when things enter the public domain, it is quite rational to think that when corporations have far more control over the law than they do now, they would radically change or even eliminate public domain definitions to benefit them. That is, the practice described in Attitude doesn't make sense under our laws, but time and again the Sixth World shows that it doesn't operate under our current legal structure.
Jason H.
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Leo Tolstoy's works have been in the public domain since 1880. A person can't steal or own them. Horizon can't swoop down and purchase the original Dawn of the Dead, Beethoven, Newton's formulas or the English language and control their distribution.
Afer two Matrix crashes and countless new laws and in a world VERY different from our own, who is to say?
(No I didn't write that section, but I'm quite amazed how people judge the Sixth World entirely from our RL point of view and "know" what "can't be done". If there's another SR book that established that Horizon can't do this, OK: breach of canon. Otherwise: Maybe strange, but certainly not stranger than a dragon as owner of a multinational corporation).
AAS
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Holy crap! You mean the Matrix created by corporations is different from the open-standard Internet? What the eff?
You're assuming the copyright law in the Sixth World, along with its definitions of public domain, remain consistent with today's law. Given that RL corporations are currently working to change copyright law to benefit themselves, including changing when things enter the public domain
Not even that, but the Supreme Court is likely to rule in favor of a 17-year old law that allows rights-owners to take back works from the public domain.
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Who built/controls the Matrix isn't relevant. Stating that Horizon controls the public domain is a breach of canon and a pretty radical campaign setting shift without foreshadowing or precedent.
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Who built/controls the Matrix isn't relevant. Stating that Horizon controls the public domain is a breach of canon and a pretty radical campaign setting shift without foreshadowing or precedent.
I really think you're mis-understanding the situation listed in the book. The publisher in question was using stolen ebooks to fund their legitimate publications. The way I read it isn't that they are listed as illegal because they are publishing public works, but that they are listed as illegal because they are selling another publisher's version of that ebook.
Let's look at it this way. If I record "Happy Birthday" and sell it over the net, I'm fine. But if I get a copy of Elvis Presley singing "Happy Birthday" and sell it over the net, *his* estate will come after me.
Horizon didn't go after her because they claimed they owned the works of Tolstoy or Kerouac. They went after her because she rejected their offer and decided to target her distribution channels in retribution.
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Who built/controls the Matrix isn't relevant. Stating that Horizon controls the public domain is a breach of canon and a pretty radical campaign setting shift without foreshadowing or precedent.
They don't control all of the public domain--all we're saying is that various corporations have taken many works out of the public domain. Given that they are trying to do so now, it hardly seems to be a radical shift that they would succeed in doing so when their political power is greatly amplified.
Jason H.
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Makes sense. Public Domain laws differ from Country to Country even.
For example, in the British Commonwealth you can legally download all of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's works. In the USA, some of his later works are still covered under copyright and cannot be legally had. (Which is hilarious, as a lot of his works were stolen and published in the USA without his permission or even knowledge!).
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Let's look at it this way. If I record "Happy Birthday" and sell it over the net, I'm fine.
Actually, no. AFAIK "Happy Birthday" belongs to Warner Music:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Birthday_to_You
How's that for "impossible", "they can't do that" and "public domain"? :)
AAS
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Is it Warner? All I know is they are litigious bastards.
Also the thing about who built the Matrix was a side thread. Context: get some.
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Who built/controls the Matrix isn't relevant. Stating that Horizon controls the public domain is a breach of canon and a pretty radical campaign setting shift without foreshadowing or precedent.
They don't control all of the public domain--all we're saying is that various corporations have taken many works out of the public domain. Given that they are trying to do so now
Which ones would that be?
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Who built/controls the Matrix isn't relevant. Stating that Horizon controls the public domain is a breach of canon and a pretty radical campaign setting shift without foreshadowing or precedent.
They don't control all of the public domain--all we're saying is that various corporations have taken many works out of the public domain. Given that they are trying to do so now
Which ones would that be?
Golan v. Holder is a case were plaintiffs are suing, saying it is unconstitutional to bring works that had been in the public domain out of the public domain. The basic issue is the in the United States, some foreign works had been in the public domain even though they were still under copyright in the country where they were produced. In 1995, the United States agreed to retroactively apply the requirements of the Berne Convention, meaning it would honor foreign copyrights. This would require removing some works from the public domain. A number of artists sued to keep this from happening. The suit directly names the U.S. attorney general (it's been going on long enough that the names Ashcroft, Gonzales, and Holder have all held the defendant spot over time), but a friend of the court brief has been filed on behalf of several organizations representing publishers and media distributors, including the RIAA and the MPAA, supporting the defense.
I'll also note that while it didn't involve removing works from the public domain, the Copyright Term Extension Act of 1998 extended copyright, thus keeping many things from entering the public domain sooner. Due to Disney's extensive support of the act, it is often called the "Mickey Mouse Protection Act."
Jason H.
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Holy crap! You mean the Matrix created by corporations is different from the open-standard Internet? What the eff?
You're assuming the copyright law in the Sixth World, along with its definitions of public domain, remain consistent with today's law. Given that RL corporations are currently working to change copyright law to benefit themselves, including changing when things enter the public domain
Not even that, but the Supreme Court is likely to rule in favor of a 17-year old law that allows rights-owners to take back works from the public domain.
A side effect of Congress turning a international signed agreement into law, that basically says that USA is to respect the copyright durations of other nations locally. So if some place have a longer copyright duration then USA, and the work have gone public domain in USA this change will bring it out of public domain until the foreign duration runs out.
Only way i can see corporations really make use of this is for them to find some micro-nation with a infinity - 1 copyright duration and start releasing all their material there first, and then importing it to USA and elsewhere that follows the mentioned agreement.
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Makes sense. Public Domain laws differ from Country to Country even.
For example, in the British Commonwealth you can legally download all of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's works. In the USA, some of his later works are still covered under copyright and cannot be legally had. (Which is hilarious, as a lot of his works were stolen and published in the USA without his permission or even knowledge!).
USA pulled basically the same shit as China is doing while it was a upstart nation. Ignored foreign patent and copyrights well into the 1950s or so. Not that i think either system do what they set out to do any longer (if they ever did, just observe how the steam engine only saw rapid improvements once the patent had expired).
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Why is she selling her books through this illegal publisher, her work is entirely legal, so there should be no reason to distribute it illegal? Selling an ebook is really easy even today, just put up a side or sell it over amazon. This should be even easier in 50years, where ebook is the dominant format.
If she simply choose to go illigal for better profit, this whole story is just useless, because it does not state anything about the copyright/pirate situation in 2073. If it is her only way to publish her book, the conclusion must be, that only corps are legally possible to "own" creative work and therefore publish it.
Also work of Tolstoy is public domain, because he himself released his work from copyright. No copyright law, Government or Corp on the world is able to reclaim his work, so it being illigal is just BS.
cya
Tycho
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I am having a hard time understanding why it is such an issue that a story set in the 2070s in a fictional world with AAA corps, magic, dragons and cyberzombies (to name a few) might have different copyright mechanics than we do.
I know that because it is a parallel Earth that we like to draw our comparisons, but why are we better able to suspend disbelief with Minotaur PhysAds than we are with the mechanics of the public domain?
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Why is she selling her books through this illegal publisher, her work is entirely legal, so there should be no reason to distribute it illegal? Selling an ebook is really easy even today, just put up a side or sell it over amazon. This should be even easier in 50years, where ebook is the dominant format.
If she simply choose to go illigal for better profit, this whole story is just useless, because it does not state anything about the copyright/pirate situation in 2073. If it is her only way to publish her book, the conclusion must be, that only corps are legally possible to "own" creative work and therefore publish it.
Also work of Tolstoy is public domain, because he himself released his work from copyright. No copyright law, Government or Corp on the world is able to reclaim his work, so it being illigal is just BS.
cya
Tycho
You're apply current real-world situations to a fantasy world that officially "split" from our timeline in 1990. Yes, we have great made strides in electronic publishing. We also have wireless smartphones that could be considered "smarter" than the 2050 Cyberdecks and an wireless "Matrix" a good 60 years before they do.
Remember, the Megacorps in Shadowrun got their extraterritoriality in 2001 and that that alone gives the Corps a lot more "different" rights when it comes to things like Public Domain and such. Heck, I don't even know if there IS public domain in the Sixth World since copyright and patent laws could be unrecognizable when each corporation can define such for themselves.
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While SR4 eased up on the legality of computing (even black hammer can be licensed) earlier editions made the simple act of carrying a cyber-terminal with a masking chip installed (what made a deck stand out from a security terminal) a offense that could give a multi-year prison sentence.
This would be the equivalent of sending someone to jail for being in the possession of a chipped PS3.
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So, all of you have the opinion, that in SR 207x, there is no law protection a creator: If you write a book or novel, you dont have the right to sell or publish it? If you paint something, it is not yours. Literally every creative work you create, is owned by the corporation, because sometime between now and then every government on the world decided to expropriate every creator on the planet.
aint gonna happen!
This is not the first BS published in SR-Sourcebooks and the only argument here is "you comparing the real world to a fictional world blabla" which is rather ridiculous. Sure I compare the real world with the Shadowrun background because Shadowrun strifes to be a world based on reality.
cya
Tycho
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was the subject of the book ever defined? Could it have been found offensive by the powers that be?
That moves the issue into one of freedom of press and freedom of speech more then "freedom to sell" tho. And with the AA-AAAs ability to say what goes on their turf, that may be highly variable compared to what one is used to today.
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So, all of you have the opinion, that in SR 207x, there is no law protection a creator: If you write a book or novel, you dont have the right to sell or publish it? If you paint something, it is not yours. Literally every creative work you create, is owned by the corporation, because sometime between now and then every government on the world decided to expropriate every creator on the planet.
aint gonna happen!
This is not the first BS published in SR-Sourcebooks and the only argument here is "you comparing the real world to a fictional world blabla" which is rather ridiculous. Sure I compare the real world with the Shadowrun background because Shadowrun strifes to be a world based on reality.
cya
Tycho
No on went to the extent to which you are going. This is what we are saying:
1) In the current world, corporations are often looking for ways to either prevent works from going into the public domain in the first place or to find ways to remove some works from the public domain.
2) Given the strong corporate interest in owning copyrights, it is reasonable to extrapolate that when corporations have more political power than they do now, they will make further assaults on the concept of "public domain."
3) Anytime corporations crack down on copyright, there is a response from the market to create new avenues for obtaining the restricted goods, even if they are selling or distributing goods without the permission of the copyright holder. So you get piracy.
4) If corporations pull things out of public domain, they would likely go after pieces that still have contemporary appeal, i.e., works deemed classics.
5) In a vast marketplace, where anyone can instantly distribute their work, the challenge becomes getting your work noticed. In Attitude, Rodregaz chose to get her work noticed by packaging it with unlicensed versions of works that had been in the public domain, but were taken out of it. These are the "illegal avenues" the book refers to.
6) No one is saying you don't have the right to sell or publish your work. People in the Sixth World have the same right to do that as people do now. But you'll notice that a lot of people still go with a publisher instead of self-publishing, because it can be good to have the infrastructure of a publisher at your disposal, and going with a publisher is a good way to get traffic to your work. That's why Rodregaz did what she did, and Horizon didn't like it.
Jason H.
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It's also why there's so many restrictions on DRM, and why FastJack wants to punch someone in the Junk.
(I'm sorry, the image of a 70+ Year Old Hacker punching a random stranger in the street in the crotch just amuses me to no end. It doesn't help that, after reading that, I keep imaging FastJack as looking like Spider Jerusalem from Transmetropolitan.).
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Since I keep reading the copyright argument on a number of forums, and Frank wanted to make a big deal about it, here's the thing: why the hell would a megacorporate nation even give a shit if something was public domain or not? If they want to make money, and own you (because you're a citizen) and have enough sway to make other nations kowtow - like the Cal Free State, or Free Los Angeles, or wherever - what does it matter what Tolstoy did in 1880?
If they have the Authorized King James Bible 2073, now with embedded narration, and they want to make free public domain bibles illegal, they can, because *they have all the guns and they own you*.
I don't know why people find this so implausible in a world where workers can literally have their skills and memories erased if they are company property. The law has nothing to do with anything, when a AAA decides something is illegal.
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Those with the money, and guns, make the law...
And i would recommend not taking everything Frank writes at face value, he has a very set bias related to SR...
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The Point you dont get is: Strong Copyright means also that nobody can "reclaim" Tolstoi because he used his copyright to release his book to the public. Copyright is the right of the author to do whatever he sees fit, not the right of the Corps to claim whatever they want.
If the corps can just claim Tolstoi and other classics, there is no copyright anymore. There is a right that allows the corps to do what they want. A creator is at their disposal.
cya
Tycho
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Since I keep reading the copyright argument on a number of forums, and Frank wanted to make a big deal about it, here's the thing: why the hell would a megacorporate nation even give a shit if something was public domain or not? If they want to make money, and own you (because you're a citizen) and have enough sway to make other nations kowtow - like the Cal Free State, or Free Los Angeles, or wherever - what does it matter what Tolstoy did in 1880?
If they have the Authorized King James Bible 2073, now with embedded narration, and they want to make free public domain bibles illegal, they can, because *they have all the guns and they own you*.
I don't know why people find this so implausible in a world where workers can literally have their skills and memories erased if they are company property. The law has nothing to do with anything, when a AAA decides something is illegal.
These are good points. In the Sixth World, the law tends not to favor the individual, and if it happens to, the corps are generally not obligated to pay attention to it.
Jason H.
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These are good points. In the Sixth World, the law tends not to favor the individual, and if it happens to, the corps are generally not obligated to pay attention to it.
Jason H.
So Public Domain must be really big in SR because it favers the whole society rather than an individual copyright holder. :P
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These are good points. In the Sixth World, the law tends not to favor the individual, and if it happens to, the corps are generally not obligated to pay attention to it.
Jason H.
So Public Domain must be really big in SR because it favers the whole society rather than an individual copyright holder. :P
*sigh*
Jason H.
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In the end, the law is whatever the Corporate Court says it is. Don't like it, Ms. Country? Kiss your economy good-bye.
So, most likely, I'd see them ruling that Public Domain would begin 99-Years after the dissolution of the Estate of the Creator. Then gets around that by having a Corporation become the controller of the Estate. As a Corporation is, essentially, an "Immortal Legal Person", you'd never have to worry about a lack of heirs dissolving an estate.
Good PR (See, we're not really getting rid of "Public Domain"!), and they get whatever they want for as long as they want.
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6) No one is saying you don't have the right to sell or publish your work. People in the Sixth World have the same right to do that as people do now. But you'll notice that a lot of people still go with a publisher instead of self-publishing, because it can be good to have the infrastructure of a publisher at your disposal, and going with a publisher is a good way to get traffic to your work. That's why Rodregaz did what she did, and Horizon didn't like it.
That message didn't get along in the section of Attitude we're talking about.
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6) No one is saying you don't have the right to sell or publish your work. People in the Sixth World have the same right to do that as people do now. But you'll notice that a lot of people still go with a publisher instead of self-publishing, because it can be good to have the infrastructure of a publisher at your disposal, and going with a publisher is a good way to get traffic to your work. That's why Rodregaz did what she did, and Horizon didn't like it.
That message didn't get along in the section of Attitude we're talking about.
Exactly, as reader of this paragraph the fist thing I learn is, that an "independent publisher" is obviously an illegal venue. Rodregaz had no reason to go illegal, she could just go to an independent publisher who works entirely legal. So the conclusion must be: There are no legal independent publishers, which means nobody is allowed to sell there work without support of a Megacorp.
Same in the Music Chapter, Indy Music is obviously illegal, if the successful indy-bands take steps like hacking and psychotropic Viruses to advertise there work instead of youtube, local gigs and help of an Indy label.
As a reader of this chapter i perceive the status quo in 2073 as: Only Megacorps are allowed to publish creative work. Everbody else is illegal, so that independent is equivalent to illegal.
cya
Tycho
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Quoting from Attitude, p. 110:
"Well, Rodregaz went independent. She found a publisher who had a pro fitable line of stolen ebooks that they use to fund their own publications. They started packaging her book in with bundles of older, similar books. So the savvy book reader looking for an old copy of Tolstoy or Kerouac would be pleasantly surprised to find they got a bonus copy of something they may well like, and they’d take a look at it. Through these illegal avenues, Rodregaz built a fan base and eventually started outselling some of her legitimate competitors."
Now, I agree that maybe not every step in Rodregaz's thought process is spelled out, but the basics are there. The publisher traffics in stolen e-books as a way to bring attention to the other books they are publishing. By working with this publisher, Rodregaz got attention for her work, even though it meant her books were part of packages that, for the most part, were pirated media. It says she started outselling some of her legitimate competitors without saying that all of those competitors are corporate-based. It doesn't specifically say why she chose this avenue, but the fact that it generated better sales for us gives us a pretty good hint.
Jason H.
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The publisher traffics in stolen e-books as a way to bring attention to the other books they are publishing.
Seems to be a pretty stupid move, but YMMV.
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The publisher traffics in stolen e-books as a way to bring attention to the other books they are publishing.
Seems to be a pretty stupid move, but YMMV.
All publicity is good publicity. Look at video games when the Watch Dog Groups scream bloody murder about the, well, bloody murder. Or consensual sex (Which is warned about right on the bloody box the game comes in!).
Funny enough, they complain more about the consensual sex between adults than the bloody murder.
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The publisher traffics in stolen e-books as a way to bring attention to the other books they are publishing.
Seems to be a pretty stupid move, but YMMV.
All publicity is good publicity. Look at video games when the Watch Dog Groups scream bloody murder about the, well, bloody murder. Or consensual sex (Which is warned about right on the bloody box the game comes in!).
Funny enough, they complain more about the consensual sex between adults than the bloody murder.
Welcome to America. :P
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and my question remains: Why did Rodregaz not use a legal publisher? She has no reason to go illegal.
cya
Tycho
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and my question remains: Why did Rodregaz not use a legal publisher? She has no reason to go illegal.
cya
Tycho
Maybe none would touch her? Horizon could easily set up a "Blacklist".
I remember there used to be major issues with that in Hollywood in the 1950s over blacklisted writers, actors, producers...
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sure, because she is one of the 10000 persons a day that got a computer generated decline letter?
Horizon clearly did not even know she published anything until she got popular.
cya
Tycho
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and my question remains: Why did Rodregaz not use a legal publisher? She has no reason to go illegal.
cya
Tycho
Let's look at excerpts from two previous posts:
By working with this publisher, Rodregaz got attention for her work
In a vast marketplace, where anyone can instantly distribute their work, the challenge becomes getting your work noticed. In Attitude, Rodregaz chose to get her work noticed by packaging it with unlicensed versions of works that had been in the public domain, but were taken out of it.
Jason H.
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So someone described as
the greatest literary mind of this generation and possibly the next.
needs an illegal publisher to get attention and still:
you’ve never heard of her.
It is not astonishing, as a illegal publisher is not able to advertise through legal channels and so on. So if getting noticed was the goal, choosing illegal is not a smart move.
but you didn't answer my questions: What reason brought Rodregaz to choose a illegal publisher over a legal one? Getting noticed as an author is clearly possible without going illegal, if not even easier that way. Since the quality of her work is uncontested, she would have a great career in front of her, regardless what Horizon would have liked.
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I think you have an overly optimistic view of the publishing world. The quality of a work is no guarantee of finding a publisher or an audience. And getting notice for an unknown author is actually quite difficult.
Jason H.
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So someone described as
the greatest literary mind of this generation and possibly the next.
needs an illegal publisher to get attention and still:
you’ve never heard of her.
It is not astonishing, as a illegal publisher is not able to advertise through legal channels and so on. So if getting noticed was the goal, choosing illegal is not a smart move.
but you didn't answer my questions: What reason brought Rodregaz to choose a illegal publisher over a legal one? Getting noticed as an author is clearly possible without going illegal, if not even easier that way. Since the quality of her work is uncontested, she would have a great career in front of her, regardless what Horizon would have liked.
She received the computer-generated rejection letter along with a letter from an anonymous employee at Horizon's literary department saying the computer analyzed her book and spat back that no one would buy it. From that, let's assume she received similar rejection letters from other publishing houses (but not a letter like Anonymous'), she sees a pattern and decides to publish with the pirates instead.
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I think you have an overly optimistic view of the publishing world. The quality of a work is no guarantee of finding a publisher or an audience. And getting notice for an unknown author is actually quite difficult.
Jason H.
Look at the music industry and the crap that gets pumped out of it. While great local artists never get beyond the bar scene.
Or cinema where great actors and directors languish in "Artistic Films" while blockbusters with the same scripts are pumped out en mass.
Same deal with publishing.
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I think you have an overly optimistic view of the publishing world. The quality of a work is no guarantee of finding a publisher or an audience. And getting notice for an unknown author is actually quite difficult.
Jason H.
Look at the music industry and the crap that gets pumped out of it. While great local artists never get beyond the bar scene.
Or cinema where great actors and directors languish in "Artistic Films" while blockbusters with the same scripts are pumped out en mass.
Same deal with publishing.
Want o make money in publishing today? Write a novel series about teenage girls and their pedophile, bestiality-equivalent
vampire lovers. (Seriously..what would you call it when someone 100+ is dating a 16 year old girl? What would you call
making something you eat for nourishment into your "girlfriend"?)
Who thinks that the world of Shadowrun is any more open of literary experimentation, when it is driven entirely by the bottom
line?
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Want o make money in publishing today? Write a novel series about teenage girls and their pedophile, bestiality-equivalent
vampire lovers. (Seriously..what would you call it when someone 100+ is dating a 16 year old girl? What would you call
making something you eat for nourishment into your "girlfriend"?)
Who thinks that the world of Shadowrun is any more open of literary experimentation, when it is driven entirely by the bottom
line?
"Vampire? Vampires are pussies! I'm the Prince of F***ing Darkness!" - Ozzy Osbourne
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I think you have an overly optimistic view of the publishing world. The quality of a work is no guarantee of finding a publisher or an audience. And getting notice for an unknown author is actually quite difficult.
Jason H.
This may all be true, but jet you did not answer my question.
She received the computer-generated rejection letter along with a letter from an anonymous employee at Horizon's literary department saying the computer analyzed her book and spat back that no one would buy it. From that, let's assume she received similar rejection letters from other publishing houses (but not a letter like Anonymous'), she sees a pattern and decides to publish with the pirates instead.
Your assumption has no foundation, its just speculation. All we know is, she received a decline letter with a anonymous letter claiming her work is brilliant. It is more than likely that there are publisher who dont use the "horizon computer reviewer" and actually read the books, so it is hard to believe nobody would represent her after she received such high praise from the Horizon reviewer.
Even if she decided to use alternative Channels, she could just told the pirate publisher to sell her work independent, not in the illegal bundle. If I put may own book/music on thepiratebay it is not automatically illegal.
cya
Tycho
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Want o make money in publishing today? Write a novel series about teenage girls and their pedophile, bestiality-equivalent
vampire lovers. (Seriously..what would you call it when someone 100+ is dating a 16 year old girl? What would you call
making something you eat for nourishment into your "girlfriend"?)
I cannot say anything, being a fan of both Buffy and Angel. :'(
But to get back on topic. I think it's more about reinforcing the dystopic nature of the Sixth World, showing that the greatest literary mind of their generation has to resort to illegal means to get themselves published. It's a story idea, nothing more than that.
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Come on, you know us fans, we'll pick everything apart and to death with a lot more time than Line Producers and Authors had to write it. :P
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Come on, you know us fans, we'll pick everything apart and to death with a lot more time than Line Producers and Authors had to write it. :P
Well, yeah...because that is how we a) run our games and b) try to figure out what is actually going on behind the
scenes so we aren't surprised.
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Tycho, your strident arguments about copyright are all well and good, but they assume one major thing that isn't really true about the Shadowrun universe.
Strong enforcement.
Copyright only really works if there is a strong enforcing agency to make sure people don't abuse or violate it. In a world where most governments are largely puppets of corporations, it makes perfect sense that copyright would be equally warped and twisted into whatever the corporations want it to be.
I also don't find it THAT unbelievable that Rodriguez would try to get larger coverage by piggybacking her work onto other more well known works. As to why she went with illegal distributors rather than legal ones, well, people do that kinda thing all the time even today. It's not always optimal, sure, but people do silly things all the time.
-k
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Work tech support. You'll learn to never underestimate the stupidity of humanity ever again.
"There are two things that are ultimately common in the universe: Hydrogen and Stupidity. And Stupidity is winning." - Me after a particularly bad shift.
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Tycho, your strident arguments about copyright are all well and good, but they assume one major thing that isn't really true about the Shadowrun universe.
Strong enforcement.
Copyright only really works if there is a strong enforcing agency to make sure people don't abuse or violate it. In a world where most governments are largely puppets of corporations, it makes perfect sense that copyright would be equally warped and twisted into whatever the corporations want it to be.
I also don't find it THAT unbelievable that Rodriguez would try to get larger coverage by piggybacking her work onto other more well known works. As to why she went with illegal distributors rather than legal ones, well, people do that kinda thing all the time even today. It's not always optimal, sure, but people do silly things all the time.
-k
I would they the opposite is true: copyright only works, if the capacity to publish is limited to a few companies. Nowadays everybody is able to publish, copy and modify creative work, because the capability is availble to everybody. Since imens fast matrix traffic and unlimited data storage space, a pirated product could be transfered in the entire world in a couple of minutes. Enforcing copyright in 207x is simply impossible.
Back to Rodriguez:
I dont find it unbelievable that Rodiguez choose to go illegal, where other authors would simple published the book independently. But that means the entire chapter is useless, since it is not evil Horizon, who banned her book out of sheer profit reasons. It simply was her own fault. (if you ignore the whole Tolstoi nonsense)
cya
Tycho
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Copyright is not about prevention of publishing works. It's about the author's right to recompense for those works. When enforcing copyrighted material, you're not telling people they cannot publish it, you're telling them that they have to pay the orginator of the material a fair share. This is why (normally) material is moved to Public Domain a certain number of years (usually between 50-70) after it's originally published, since that's typically after the author has passed on.
Nowadays, of course, that's very different since the rights to material is being copyrighted well after an author's death in order to support surviving relations. This is where we're getting items copyrighted well beyond there normal move to public domain.
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Work tech support. You'll learn to never underestimate the stupidity of humanity ever again.
"There are two things that are ultimately common in the universe: Hydrogen and Stupidity. And Stupidity is winning." - Me after a particularly bad shift.
Reminds me of some supposed quote of Einstein...
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Work tech support. You'll learn to never underestimate the stupidity of humanity ever again.
"There are two things that are ultimately common in the universe: Hydrogen and Stupidity. And Stupidity is winning." - Me after a particularly bad shift.
Reminds me of some supposed quote of Einstein...
If you're going to abuse a quote, it might as well be from a great man.
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If the corps can just claim Tolstoi and other classics, there is no copyright anymore. There is a right that allows the corps to do what they want. A creator is at their disposal.
This is, in a nutshell, exactly my point.
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In essence, the only strong enforcement of copyright that corporations in SR will back are the ones that allow them to make the most money, as quickly as possible, with the least effort on their part. Public domain have always been a torn in the side of IP based corporations, and they would likely use any opportunity to dismantle it in part or in whole.
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Soooo..... is Attitude a good book to purchase.....
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Depends on the buyer and/or the group.
I bought it because I'm an unabashed Shadowrun Fanboy. My group, however, might never read it. So I got it on PDF.
It is very much a "Cotton Candy" publication. Almost pure fluff, no crunch.
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Depends on the buyer and/or the group.
I bought it because I'm an unabashed Shadowrun Fanboy. My group, however, might never read it. So I got it on PDF.
It is very much a "Cotton Candy" publication. Almost pure fluff, no crunch.
Oh, c'mon, you gotta love them Death Masks and Hacker Gums!
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For me I think it is a really good source book.
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For me I think it is a really good source book.
The two chapters on basic running seemed a little redundant with the stuff in the Companion..but they
are definately good for newer players. Especially the one that is just the story of the newbie runner
eventually losuing his hand in a trash compactor and getting a DocWagon Contract..
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Hand? Just a joint of a finger. Still, as the Shadowtalk said, "Dick Move".
My group was asking me why Doc Wagon was willing to have Shadowrunners as clients, when I pointed out the DNA Sample you're supposed to provide, and then pointed out how likely anyone is to then perform a Shadowrun against the Corp after getting service with them. They're getting paid by Shadowrunners to not have said Shadowrunners perform jobs against them. Smart tactics when you come to think of it.
I also had them release a line of cybernetic replacement limbs using modern technology in 2070 (http://fromtheshadowsrpg.blogspot.com/2008/04/docwagon-premier-provider-of-emergency.html).
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Notoriety sells, too.
Anyway, I just saw a hardcopy at my LCS and goddamn this is a beautiful book. Even if I didn't get my proofer credit. :P Folks would be well-advised to pick it up because it's good, and it will look good at the table.
Bonus points for talking with the store owner about getting me and possibly another freelancer to do a book signing and whole release event when Spy Games comes out. Thank you, Attitude. If I hadn't felt the need to comment about the non-credit, it probably wouldn't have ever happened. :D
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It's a nice book with flavor...it's given me some ideas to make the world feel more complete, and it's given my players more ideas on how to make their characters be more well-rounded.
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Am I the only one who is disappointed in the lack of game mechanics in this book? I was expecting a Fourth Edition answer to Shadowbeat with it's performance ratings and rocker status/lifestyle ratings. :(
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I'm disappointed by the lack of focus and... welll... attitude in this book. Lacking game mechanics come a close second, though.
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Needed more Urban Brawl and Combat Cycle.
OH! And Desert Wars! Lots more Desert Wars!!!
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I mentioned that when I came onboard, but that was too late. I'm hoping to do something about that.
As for UB, well ... Watch for upcoming Missions.
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So far I've been liking what I'm reading and for my more pop culture obsessive technomancer its a perfect fit. El wifey also enjoys reading it too to help spruce up her melee adept. But I would like to see more Urban Brawl in something future ( I know missions was mentioned but more past that).
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I think the only issue with the book is that it isn't AS GOOD as a great book that came out when we first got into the game.
Other than that one problem, it's a damn fine book.
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Love it, am thrilled with my purchase, dare say is a sterling example of why I read/play SR, kudos team ;D
As this is the internets, I must protest/complain a l'il or you get kicked off; Lady Gaga in my SR!?!??!?! *sigh*
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: Pop Culture references age poorly.
There are some exceptions: Beatles, Elvis, The Greatful Dead... Those might be used, they'll be considered "Classical Music" by SR time, most likely. Played in classy restaurants, where the Johnson brings the 'Runners when he wants them uncomfortable. :P
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I will admit that we all had reservations about it. However, considering that as far as I am concerned most if not all RL pop culture from the last twenty-five years never happened in SR I think it's worth keeping one or two. That one of the enduring legacies is, in fact, Gaga is both amusing and somewhat plausible.
And that is how I sleep at night. Because it sure as Hell isn't on a pile of fat stacks of freelancer/proofer pay.
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I agree with Crimson... Even if her music doesn't survive to 2070, they will be talking about her -ahem- "ground-breaking" style. (Even though she's doing nothing more than ripping off Bowie, Elton and Madonna.)
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When folks complain about "gaga," I want to just remind them that: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gaga
The current pop star/diva/whatever isn't the one that, y'know, coined the term. It meant "crazy" or "over the top" long before she came along, and will remain associated so long after she's swept back under the rug of popular culture.
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Meanwhile, Elton and Bowie will be remembered for quite some time.
It's all about staying power, people!
...
GET YOUR MINDS OUT OF THE GUTTERS!
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It's all about staying power, people!
That would be Sting.
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It's all about staying power, people!
That would be Sting.
Staying power? How about Keith Richards? I'm pretty sure he died 30 years ago and the narcotics in his system has kept him animated. He's a rock and roll lich.
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It's all about staying power, people!
That would be Sting.
Staying power? How about Keith Richards? I'm pretty sure he died 30 years ago and the narcotics in his system has kept him animated. He's a rock and roll lich.
Actually....that would be Mick Jaeger.....
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With UGE, SURGE, freakin' spirits wandering around, I dare say any (most...) contemporary icons would fall by the wayside, the 6th world and all.
Who cares about a meat suit when your neighbor eats people! :o
Still love the book, just baffled me a bit was all.