Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: rodimus93 on <05-04-16/1956:37>
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So I'm new to the system and such so sorry for the newb question. Per the Errata it states that lockpicking is not a skill in SR5, if thats so what skill do you use to pick locks both mechanical and electrical.
Also is its not a skill do when know why its listen on herolab.
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Locksmith is the skill you want. And a Locksmith toolkit.
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Locksmith toolkit may or may not be needed, depending on table and GM interpretation.
The only direct reference RAW makes to tools is for transponder keys, where you need a hardware toolkit of all things. Other than that, a lockpick set is presumably also suitable.
And if you're picking manual locks, you can make do with just an autopicker.
In short, the actual rules are vague on what you need to use the Locksmith skill; a toolkit isn't a bad idea, but it isn't actually referenced anywhere.
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Lock pick set and auto picker are for old school key locks.
Locksmith kits for everything else.
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I take the easy RAW interpretation, Locksmith is a Technical Skill, Technical Skills need Tool Kits, therefore Locksmith needs a Tool Kit. All the other things provide buffs of some kind. I'm real fuzzy on if Lockpicks are needed in addition to the Tool Kit, or if they're just a hold over on the gear lists from when (mechanical) Lockpicking was it's own skill. GM interpretation may vary I suppose.
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You can't lockpick or autopicker on a maglock, but you can use them on a mechanical lock.
You can use a Locksmith kit on a mechanical lock, and on a maglock casing (or other locksmith challenge).
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And that's your interpretation, adzling, nothing more. The rules don't state canonically either way, so we have to interpret them as best we can.
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well considering the dictionary definition of "lockpick" (and what lockpick sets are comprised of) then yeah it's right.
otherwise you could "pick" a maglock with some probes and pin-depressers????
Without the locksmith kit you have nothing to attack non-mechanical locks with.
So while you may think it's "my interpretation" it's pretty much the only reasonable one given, you know, the meaning of words and stuff.
This may help you divine the difference between "lockpicking" and "locksmithing" (hint: lockpicking is a specialized sub-set of locksmithing. I would allow a "lockpick" specializaiton of "locksmith" in Srun).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lock_picking
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I disagree that your opinion is the "only reasonable one given". I'd expect a lockpick set to contain the tools needed to pick locks. That includes both maglocks and mechanical locks. No separate Locksmith tool kit needed.
I base this interpretation on two separate lines from the rules.
Building and repairing items requires the right tools for the job.
Bypassing a lock is arguably neither building nor repairing.
They are necessary tools for picking locks.
Again, that's just my interpretation; not saying yours is wrong, just that it is "just" your opinion and not RAW because RAW is lacking.
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you are ignoring what "picking a lock" means completely.
it's impossible to pick any non-mechanical lock.
that's why the rules have explicit entries for maglocks etc. that DO NOT use lockpick but rather passkeys, encoders etc.
the locksmith kit is required to get the casing off the maglock for example.
Please go read the dictionary/ link to wikipedia I posted.
thanks for playing
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The Locksmith skill is required to open a maglock casing. The only time page 359 or 360 references a toolkit is under transponder keys, which require a Hardware toolkit.
Relevant passages:
The first step to bypassing a maglock is to remove the case and access the maglock’s electronic guts. This requires a successful Locksmith + Agility [Physical] (Maglock Rating x 2, 1 Combat Turn) Extended Test.
Some maglock systems come equipped with anti-tamper systems, rated between 1 and 4. In order to bypass the anti-tamper circuits, an additional Locksmith + Agility [Physical] (anti-tamper system rating) Test must be made.
This means cracking open the case (see above) and then rewiring the circuits—another Locksmith + Agility [Physical] (Maglock Rating x 2, 1 Combat Turn) Extended Test.
They can be defeated using the same method as for keypads—by removing the case and tampering with the works.
Since you've decided to take on an agressive tone, I'm out.
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Sometimes you have to use common sense in combination with the rules as we all know they are often poorly defined.
This does not mean you get to avoid the actual meaning/ definition of "lockpicking" vs. "locksmithing".
This is the equivalent of using a car jack to change a wheel (specific, specialized task similar to lockpicking a mechanical lock) vs. having a complete mechanics toolkit allowing you to not only change the tire but also perform all kinds of other tasks on the car as well.
You can choose to ignore the what a "lockpick" is and avoid the definition of "lockpicking" but that does not make your interpretation correct.
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Ultimately you're talking about a couple hundred Nuyen worth of gear, so unless you're a Resources E character it's likely a trivial expense.
There are, effectively, three interpretations.
Lowest cost, Lockpicks work for all Locksmith tests - 200 Nuyen IIRC
Middle ground, Locksmith Tool kit required for Locksmith Tests - 500 Nuyen IIRC
Highest cost, you need both Lock Picks and Locksmith Tool Kit to cover all locks, 700 Nuyen for both.
I can honestly see arguments for any of them. Personally I feel that the Gear list didn't get updated with the Skill changes and Lockpicks should get tossed, but that's me.
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true dat.
Ultimately you're talking about a couple hundred Nuyen worth of gear, so unless you're a Resources E character it's likely a trivial expense.
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(http://www.kappit.com/img/pics/53916909ieicf.jpg)
:D
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I'm going to ask the question:
DO you even know what a maglock is and how it works????
I ask because the idea of a lockpick or autopicker working on a maglock is comical to those with actual knowledge....
Like 'Flintsone car" funny....
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I'm going to ask the question:
DO you even know what a maglock is and how it works????
I ask because the idea of a lockpick or autopicker working on a maglock is comical to those with actual knowledge....
Like 'Flintsone car" funny....
Do you know what a lockpick in 2075 is and can do? I mean, with the wonders of nano tech.... ;-)
I grant you that I also assume a lockpick is not that different from now, but it doesn't say that anywhere....
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I already tried inserting real life descriptions here reaver, it's not relevant apparently so let's let this thread die
I'm going to ask the question:
DO you even know what a maglock is and how it works????
I ask because the idea of a lockpick or autopicker working on a maglock is comical to those with actual knowledge....
Like 'Flintsone car" funny....
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Sendaz
Real men use explosives :)
(http://49m47r1ce5b927clot3yajgk.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/800196-840x420.jpg)
Reaver
To be fair, you're not picking the maglock itself but rather the control circuits. The writers decided to equate "picking" such a lock to what is arguably more of an electronics/hardware skill, at least to my mind, but Locksmith is the skill used so there it is.
If I remember correctly, though, you're an engineer, right? Question: would a modern day maglock default to a lock state if you cut power to the lock and/or building, including any potential backup power generators? Just curious, as that seems like both an ideal security feature and a great way to trap someone who happens to be on the inside.
For what it's worth, I posted the question in the Missions FAQ thread; at least from a Missions perspective it would be good to have insight in what the rules are not only for tools needed but if the method for bypassing keypads and card readers also work on biometrics, voice, and facial recognition systems. Ultimately, we can argue semantics all day long but at the end of the day we're talking about abstract game mechanics in a fictional setting, not real life mechanical and/or electrical engineering.
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Real trolls use their horns.
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Question: would a modern day maglock default to a lock state if you cut power to the lock and/or building, including any potential backup power generators? Just curious, as that seems like both an ideal security feature and a great way to trap someone who happens to be on the inside.
Real life Mag Locks unlock when a signal is passed through them. It's easier (requires less force anyway) to destroy the wall the door frame is mounted in. I'm 90% sure the default state is locked if the power is cut. Running power is required to open the lock.
Hospitals use Magnetically sealed doors around the Maternity wards to stop folks from running off with Babies. If you're standing by the door you can hear the current kick in to unlock them. Given that Hospitals have generators taking out power requires some effort. I'm not sure what the protocol is to open the doors when there are multiple power failures. Axe would be my guess tbh, or breaching charge if a tactical team was on site for a real FUBAR situation.
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A maglock uses an electromagnet to hold the door shut.
An electromagnet requires an electrical current in order to operate; otherwise, it no longer holds the door shut. If the sole sources of power are the city's electrical grid and a generator, then when power goes away, the door is unlocked.
A maglock has a third source of power, which is fundamental to its operation. A battery.
When power goes away, the default state of the battery in the absence of voltage applied by the city grid/generator is to discharge, sending current to power the electromagnet and hold the door shut. In conjunction with a positive-signal to unlock, the door is secure. The battery on modern home security maglocks lasts 40-60 hours on loss of power.
If you want to "pick" a locked maglock once it's lost power? You have options.
2) Bring your own power supply.
I'm actually surprised some sort of big portable battery or small portable generator isn't a stock piece of gear. Do some hardware finagling to access the tender parts, and you could counter the battery with a voltage of your own. though if you can do that, the next option's probably more practical. You could send the positive signal yourself to unlock the maglock.
3) Cut the battery's connection
If you could access the battery, all you'd have to do is sever the connection from the battery to the electromagnet without killing yourself. Of course, the battery of a maglock is generally well-protected.
4) Short the battery
If you could access any part of the power line for the battery, you also have the option of shorting it out, so that current isn't going through the electromagnet anymore; it's going through the low-resistance path you just created.
Do keep in mind this low-resistance path results in super high currents, and heat generation is proportional to current squared, and when the chemicals in a battery get hot enough, they have a bad habit of exploding.
5) Safety override
A maglock that fails shut is great for security. It's also horrible for safety. The megacorps may not care MUCH, but it's hard to get away with leaving your employees to die horribly, screaming in a fire concurrent with a loss of power. As such, there is almost always an override for egress. This override is usually on the side you WANT to be on, not the one you ARE on, but if you're trying to get the frag out, it's a useful option.
6) Step to the right and smash
As mentioned, a locked maglock door is often incredibly tough. However, while one reinforced wall is cheap, reinforcing every wall in a room to the same degree is expensive. Step to the right and go Kool-aid man and smash through the wall instead of the door.
Does not work well for vaults.
7) Brute force
A low-end modern maglock shuts with about a third of a ton of force. A high end modern maglock is over a ton. We'll say 1200 kg equivalent force (I'm not using Newtons) to make a nice, round number.
Lifting and carrying is in increments of 15kg. 1200kg / 15kg = 80. Let's say for the purposes of opening this maglock, if you're using a crow bar, you're using Strength x 2 instead of Lifting & Carrying. Now, if your team has three strength 10 orcs and trolls all using crowbars on the maglock at the same time, since the crowbars let us start with a baseline of 15kg per point of strength, and we're doubling strength, we can say they exert a baseline force of 900 kg equivalent force. If, all together, they can manage another 20 hits, then they can straight up pry open that maglock through brute force, but it is one monumental feat.
A low-end maglock would be more on the order of 300 kg equivalent force. If you have a Lifting & Carrying of 20, you could do it barehanded without rolling.
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A maglock uses an electromagnet to hold the door shut.
An electromagnet requires an electrical current in order to operate; otherwise, it no longer holds the door shut. If the sole sources of power are the city's electrical grid and a generator, then when power goes away, the door is unlocked.
A maglock has a third source of power, which is fundamental to its operation. A battery.
When power goes away, the default state of the battery in the absence of voltage applied by the city grid/generator is to discharge, sending current to power the electromagnet and hold the door shut. In conjunction with a positive-signal to unlock, the door is secure. The battery on modern home security maglocks lasts 40-60 hours on loss of power.
If you want to "pick" a locked maglock once it's lost power? You have options.
2) Bring your own power supply.
I'm actually surprised some sort of big portable battery or small portable generator isn't a stock piece of gear. Do some hardware finagling to access the tender parts, and you could counter the battery with a voltage of your own. though if you can do that, the next option's probably more practical. You could send the positive signal yourself to unlock the maglock.
3) Cut the battery's connection
If you could access the battery, all you'd have to do is sever the connection from the battery to the electromagnet without killing yourself. Of course, the battery of a maglock is generally well-protected.
4) Short the battery
If you could access any part of the power line for the battery, you also have the option of shorting it out, so that current isn't going through the electromagnet anymore; it's going through the low-resistance path you just created.
Do keep in mind this low-resistance path results in super high currents, and heat generation is proportional to current squared, and when the chemicals in a battery get hot enough, they have a bad habit of exploding.
5) Safety override
A maglock that fails shut is great for security. It's also horrible for safety. The megacorps may not care MUCH, but it's hard to get away with leaving your employees to die horribly, screaming in a fire concurrent with a loss of power. As such, there is almost always an override for egress. This override is usually on the side you WANT to be on, not the one you ARE on, but if you're trying to get the frag out, it's a useful option.
6) Step to the right and smash
As mentioned, a locked maglock door is often incredibly tough. However, while one reinforced wall is cheap, reinforcing every wall in a room to the same degree is expensive. Step to the right and go Kool-aid man and smash through the wall instead of the door.
Does not work well for vaults.
7) Brute force
A low-end modern maglock shuts with about a third of a ton of force. A high end modern maglock is over a ton. We'll say 1200 kg equivalent force (I'm not using Newtons) to make a nice, round number.
Lifting and carrying is in increments of 15kg. 1200kg / 15kg = 80. Let's say for the purposes of opening this maglock, if you're using a crow bar, you're using Strength x 2 instead of Lifting & Carrying. Now, if your team has three strength 10 orcs and trolls all using crowbars on the maglock at the same time, since the crowbars let us start with a baseline of 15kg per point of strength, and we're doubling strength, we can say they exert a baseline force of 900 kg equivalent force. If, all together, they can manage another 20 hits, then they can straight up pry open that maglock through brute force, but it is one monumental feat.
A low-end maglock would be more on the order of 300 kg equivalent force. If you have a Lifting & Carrying of 20, you could do it barehanded without rolling.
Yep. To a point.
There is an other form of maglock, A polarity driven bolt system. When current is applied, the bolts are open and the chamber can be unsealed. No current, bolts pop up into a slotted frame system to secure the chamber.***
***Please note the language I am using here. NDA prevents me from giving explicit examples (but the language should).
Adamo1618 in the Electrical Engineer. (If I remember correctly, don't want to put words in his mouth)
Officially my occupational title is Industrial Instrumentation Mechanic and Electrician. Of which I have 6000 hours of apprenticeship and 15+ years of work experience.
Basically as an IIM, I build, design, maintain, and install industrial sized control systems that run and power every thing from a fire alarm to a 100 tonne Boxxite bin. And I deal with, the pneumatic, hydraulic, electric systems.
And everything that an electrician does :P
**IIMs are most often employed in the BIG industries such as mining, energy, and Fossil Fuels.... But not that many people want to spend the amount of time it takes to actually get their proper certifications today. (It's treated as 2 separate trades for terms of study and apprenticeship, with very little credit given for the cross overs.... So, yea..) Those of us who ARE certified and have... additional training and security clearances from various governments (don't get me started here unless you want to hear some messed up stories) get work on the international stage, and thus get to travel around a lot. But there is some prices to pay too. (Ask about my Social life... I had one. Once, in 2002? 2001? Hard to maintain relationships when you are not in the same country for 8 months of the year)
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So this (http://www.google.com/patents/US20150267442).
Interesting.
Bringing your own battery would work here, if you could get to the power supply, probably better than it would for the conventional magnetic locks we have today.
There is always, of course, breaking the individual bolts with a miniwelder, but... even that's gonna take a while, even if you know where to cut.
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Another trick for maglocks that seal shut only when active; open the case, take a tag eraser, brick the device. You destroy it, it can't keep powering the magnets, it opens. Depends on interpretation of maglocks, but a fun option nonetheless.
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Do you know what a lockpick in 2075 is and can do? I mean, with the wonders of nano tech.... ;-)
I grant you that I also assume a lockpick is not that different from now, but it doesn't say that anywhere....
yes it does:
Lockpick set: These mechanical burglary devices have undergone only slight improvements in the last several centuries. They are necessary tools for picking locks.
especially when combined with the autopicker:
Autopicker: This lockpick gun is a quick and effective way of bypassing mechanical locks.
it becomes a stretch to say that lockpicks work on electronic locks.
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Real life Mag Locks unlock when a signal is passed through them. It's easier (requires less force anyway) to destroy the wall the door frame is mounted in. I'm 90% sure the default state is locked if the power is cut. Running power is required to open the lock.
Hospitals use Magnetically sealed doors around the Maternity wards to stop folks from running off with Babies. If you're standing by the door you can hear the current kick in to unlock them. Given that Hospitals have generators taking out power requires some effort. I'm not sure what the protocol is to open the doors when there are multiple power failures. Axe would be my guess tbh, or breaching charge if a tactical team was on site for a real FUBAR situation.
Um no.... the default position for most places, including hospitals is unlocked should power fail, simply as a Health & Safety issue.
1.Staff can readily unlock the doors at all times.
2.Provisions shall be made for rapid removal by remote locks; keying all locks to keys carried by staff at all times; or other such reliable means available to staff at all times to open the locked doors.
3.A total smoke detection system is provided throughout the locked space or locked doors can be remotely unlocked at an approved, constantly attended location within the locked space.
4.The building is protected throughout by an approved supervised automatic sprinkler system.
5.The locks are electrical devices that fail safely so as to release upon loss of power to the device.
6.The locks release by independent activation of smoke detection described previously or water-flow switch activation for the automatic sprinkler system.
Now for corporate secure zones, this may be reversed, high security places the R&D lab should go into lockdown in case of power loss for containment purposes, but the normal exit doors on the exterior of the building should usually unlock to allow staff exiting and firemen entering.
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Excellent, now I know for the next time I need to break out of a Maternity ward :P
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Excellent, now I know for the next time I need to break out of a Maternity ward :P
SwaddleRun™
In a Dark Future Alamos 20k, in a mad bid to bring the Metahuman menace to an end, unleashes a virus designed to target the 'lesser' races of metahumanity, rendering them sterile so that ultimately they would die out.
Unfortunately once out in the open it mutated and ended up sterilizing over 98% of all metahumanity, human and other alike, as well as sufficiently damaging their DNA enough that most cloning/IVF techniques no longer work as well.
Now babies have become the hottest resource as corporations vie for these tiny tots to secure their own futures.
So load up on ammo and nappies, because things are about to get messy.
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Oh, one more option for getting through a conventional maglock with the power cut off, if it's set to fail locked.
Wait forty hours or so for the battery backup to die.
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Oh, one more option for getting through a conventional maglock with the power cut off, if it's set to fail locked.
Wait forty hours or so for the battery backup to die.
That is not how the "fail-closed" bolts work... if the power is cut off, they close, and they will only open if there is power (and they're unlocked by a command). Battery backup would only allow them to open when the main power fails, IF the command to open is given. And when battery backup also runs out, they will never open until power is restored (and, again, the command is given).
Also, I think that in the SR universe, where life is cheap and data is valuable, it would be less likely that safety concerns would triumph over security, thus "fail-closed" bolts would be more common than in our universe. Also, in our world, we don't really have a problem where a hacker comes by and hacks into locks (or their power sources) holding secure areas secure, like they do in SR, so again we're not as concerned with security as with safety. When I put those together, what I come up with is that "fail-closed" bolts are going to be pretty common in a lot of high-security areas in SR. Heck, they may even be the default type of lock.
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Well, there's one thing more important than security, Coyote; profit. If your workers surviving to work another day is cheaper, you want fail-open. If your insurance costs become astronomical, fail-open might be a way to make it cheaper.
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Oh, one more option for getting through a conventional maglock with the power cut off, if it's set to fail locked.
Wait forty hours or so for the battery backup to die.
That is not how the "fail-closed" bolts work... if the power is cut off, they close, and they will only open if there is power (and they're unlocked by a command). Battery backup would only allow them to open when the main power fails, IF the command to open is given. And when battery backup also runs out, they will never open until power is restored (and, again, the command is given).
Also, I think that in the SR universe, where life is cheap and data is valuable, it would be less likely that safety concerns would triumph over security, thus "fail-closed" bolts would be more common than in our universe. Also, in our world, we don't really have a problem where a hacker comes by and hacks into locks (or their power sources) holding secure areas secure, like they do in SR, so again we're not as concerned with security as with safety. When I put those together, what I come up with is that "fail-closed" bolts are going to be pretty common in a lot of high-security areas in SR. Heck, they may even be the default type of lock.
When I say "conventional," I mean like the most common kind today. A modern maglock is an electromagnet holding a door shut. I'm not talking about the type Reaver described, where the electromagnet pulls the locking bolt out.
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Blue Rise is right, most would be a simple magnetic field device instead of a selinoid driven system.
First off is cost. They are infinately cheaper, and can hold a lot of weight before being forced open. (Governed by the magnetic field).
They are quick to activate, as an electro magnetic field is almost instant. (Close enough, its measured in trilliths of a second!). With the only disadvantage being brown outs and power failure. (Battery back-ups will hold for a time).
Compared to selinoid driven, which has a mechanical factor to it, which makes it slower to engage, disengage. (Measured in thounsandths of seconds). Are expensive to operate (takes much more power to retract the bolts, and hold them closed). Not to mention the increased costs of both the door and surrounding walls and frame. However, you are not getting through them without specialized tools, and a lot of time, or catastrophic damage.
These things are used on things you DON'T want opened, unless you HAVE to open it... So not your standard employee door.
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But, in the world of SR, the selinoid door may show up more then you think..... depending on just how cruel your corps are.
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On a side note for you more technical minded out there, and as some posted some building codes, know that those codes are incomplete.
"Hospitals" is a general term for any structure that provides surgery, heathcare and long term recovery. There are more specialized rules for more specialized care facilities.
So, depending on the emergency, doors will open or lock as needed to contain said emergency. This would all be controlled from a master system that ties a number of services for the building, such as HVAC, fire control, door control, security alarms, various monitors, transmitters, indicators and other specialized functions.
For example, in many labs that operate with contagious agents operate under a double door negative pressure environment. This is to stop any agents from leaving the area as when a door is opened, the positive pressure outside "blows" the agent back into the room.
However, in the event of a fire: the first door SEALS (even with people inside) and the second door can be opened, creating a "fire break". Mean while, HVAC to the room is completely cut off, and suppression is engaged.
Guesome for the workers, yes. But those proceedures aren't there for their safety.... but for everyone else.
Same goes for most sensitive buildings..... what happens is determined by the control systems laid out for the building.... HOWEVER: a fire alarm is generally the only thing that ever overrides a building lock down. (Unless like in my above example, the fire protocol dictates something else).
Not such a bad idea to bring that decker along, and find that building spider now is it?
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As a point to the futility of the argument for regular lockpics to be necessary for maglocks, sequencers and key cards already exist. When rather expensive ways around a maglock already exist, it is clearly not intended that a $200 trinket be an alternative. If you want to argue that a locksmith's kit would already have some basic picks inside of them, that's fine but that doesn't mean that those fragile pics will do anything but shock you when you try it on a maglock or other circuitry system.
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Invalid argument, AwesomenessDog. There are two ways to bypass maglocks; one is opening the case and tampering with the internals, the other is using tools like sequencers and key card copiers.
A sequencer still requires the case to be opened, a copied key card does not.
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And lock picks don't help you in either of those scenarios.
So awesome's argument has merit.
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Or, you need some lockpicks to open the case; I mean, do you really just let the panel be opened by a couple screws, or do you use a mechanical lock as a secondary security measure to keep folks out?
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Or, you need some lockpicks to open the case; I mean, do you really just let the panel be opened by a couple screws, or do you use a mechanical lock as a secondary security measure to keep folks out?
Generally?
6, t8 1/4- 20 Torx screws. Along with a pressure switch so IF the cover is opened, a LOUD alarm goes off. (this would be the anti-tamper circuit mentioned in the book)
The 6 Screws allow for an impact resistance to the casing (usually high grade aluminium 16 gauge or less), while not presenting a weak spot for target. (Such as the old 'bike key' locks you still se around thermostats... Which just require a simple "lock punch" to remove...... basically a good hammer and round punch will do. Removed enough of them in my time)
:P
<Here is a way to look at it. If it meant to be opened only a few times, (such as at install, for upgrades, repairs) you bolt or screw it closed. ESPECIALLY with any solid state or electronic circuitry. Dust, moisture, and heat are the biggest killers of electronics..... Followed only by harmonics and voltage spikes.) If it is going to be accessed more frequently, you lock it.
Anytime there is a lock, there is a portal, thus there is weak point, which is usually the lock, the hinge or the frame of the portal. With screws or bolts, you are actually binding to structural elements of the case, making the entire unit more sturdy. <Use bolts and capscrews for heavier objects, or high counter torque situations.>
What is a Torx? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx#/media/File:Torx_screw.JPG That's a Torx screw
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Is it weird that I really enjoy reading Reaver's posts about doors? In any event, I really enjoy reading Reaver's posts about doors (and industrial economics, but that's a separate thing).
My own reading of things is that lockpicks don't work on maglocks. Each sub-type of maglock has a dedicated piece of gear that can be used to overcome it (keypads = sequencer, print scanner = cellular glove, etc.) in case no one in the group has the Locksmith skill, but the skill itself is universally applicable.
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We use pin-in-torx t10s ;-)
There are also some specialty screws you can get that have a unique keyway that stops the screw being removed with anything but the very specific, custom, unique driver.
Those are typically used in areas you cannot secure (like outdoors in unattended areas).
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If everything else fails, a miniwelder does 25P DV. That's enough to cut through everything not made of hardened stuff like blast bunkers.
A well placed monofilament chainsaw has only 16 AP -6 but with the bonus of not setting things on fire.
Between those two tools you generally can open any door you happen to come across.
Not to mention Ork/Troll adepts with their smashing blow ability...
A more sophisticated solution would be cheapish cyberdeck modded for Sleaze and that nice induction module that allows you to create direct connections by placing it on top of the device. Add a high level Agent and you can do that without involving a decker.
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I run a one player game, with the PC shaman using a stable of NPC’s as needed depending on the job. One of the NPC’s was designed as an intrusions expert (good locksmithing (with all the gear), somewhat specialized decking, all the stealth, climbing, perception). After the first couple of runs we accidentally discovered the joys of a strong silence illusion covering a monofilament chainsaw :D (Occasionally with levitation added in to reach somewhere less armored). Haven’t used the NPC’s locksmithing much since then …. (decking for dealing with cameras is still useful, of course. Even if you are invisible, the hole in the door/window/wall isn’t).
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Invalid argument, AwesomenessDog. There are two ways to bypass maglocks; one is opening the case and tampering with the internals, the other is using tools like sequencers and key card copiers.
A sequencer still requires the case to be opened, a copied key card does not.
Not what I said. I said both of the methods you restated are methods to crack a maglock, jabbing the thing with a shaped piece of metal isn't beyond real life common sense because those two methods already exist.
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Anytime there is a lock, there is a portal, thus there is weak point, which is usually the lock, the hinge or the frame of the portal. With screws or bolts, you are actually binding to structural elements of the case, making the entire unit more sturdy. <Use bolts and capscrews for heavier objects, or high counter torque situations.>
Also worth pointing out that if you are getting by a mag lock, you probably don't care about the little dinky lock except in the most covert of runs so you will likely just use bolt cutters on the smaller mechanical lock or some other smash and grab tool.
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For what it's worth, Ray has clarified that for missions a lockpick set is used for mechanical locks, and a locksmith tool kit is used for maglocks. I didn't ask about the autopicker as that one is fairly self-explanatory, being actually described well.
I'd also like to note that at no point did I actually disagree with such an interpretation, I was merely pointing out that from the purposes of a RAW discussion there is none. At my table we use a lockpick set or an autopicker for mechanical locks, and a tool kit for maglocks. Except that one time when I had my players find a locksmith facility because the case they'd retreived had a SOTA maglock on it that could only be broken with adequate tools.
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By the time you have an entire facility worth of tools at your disposal, you don't need to worry about what kind of lock it is. That thing will be open, its just a matter of how many dohickies you need to hit it with first.
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Exactly; no lock is impervious, the impossible only takes a little longer. Finding said facility, however, was good fun.
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Lockpicks open mechanical locks
Locksmith kits open lock cases. Examples include card readers, and keypads.
A Locksmith Kit doesn't defeat a mechanical lock; although it might be possible to bypass a mechanical lock's case.
Also it may be worth mentioning that Lockpicks are restricted while a Locksmith kit isn't. Perhaps something to help settle things. I'm personally in the camp that Lockpicks aren't in a Locksmith kit. (I'm aware how asinine that sounds, but this is also game to which there are game mechanics. Thing A isn't Thing B. They do two different things, regardless whether or not what they do affects the same game object.)
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Also it may be worth mentioning that Lockpicks are restricted while a Locksmith kit isn't. Perhaps something to help settle things. I'm personally in the camp that Lockpicks aren't in a Locksmith kit. (I'm aware how asinine that sounds, but this is also game to which there are game mechanics. Thing A isn't Thing B. They do two different things, regardless whether or not what they do affects the same game object.)
Another interpretation is that a person carrying devices for breaking locks is more likely to be worth asking questions of than someone with a kit for installing, replacing, removing etc locks. At least some of the rating of Restricted is how likely it is that you are carrying the item for nefarious intent.
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It's like why there is a waiting period on buying ammo, but not guns in rl. Anything can be used as a club but you need bullets for something to function as a gun.
On locksmith kits, if you already have the case on any mechanical lock I have ever seen, then you don't need a lockpick anymore so for all meta intents and purposes, lockpicks are the Schrodinger's item of the kit.
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It's like why there is a waiting period on buying ammo, but not guns in rl. Anything can be used as a club but you need bullets for something to function as a gun.
On locksmith kits, if you already have the case on any mechanical lock I have ever seen, then you don't need a lockpick anymore so for all meta intents and purposes, lockpicks are the Schrodinger's item of the kit.
I'm not sure how it is where you are, but here you can buy bullets with no waiting time and have a waiting period for the actual gun. The states around here are the same as well.
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I live in Florida where if you buy a gun, you have to wait at least three days to buy ammo. The rationale being as above but more plainly put: bullets are useless without a gun, a gun can be used in the same way any other "deadly weapon" can without bullets so stop them from having something that can't function as something else.
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You can't lockpick or autopicker on a maglock, but you can use them on a mechanical lock.
You can use a Locksmith kit on a mechanical lock, and on a maglock casing (or other locksmith challenge).
Why can't use lockpick on Maglock, I have seen many Locksmiths (http://www.amelialocksmithsunnyisles.com/residential/) who use lockpick tools in maglock .Can you explain here this ?
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You can't lockpick or autopicker on a maglock, but you can use them on a mechanical lock.
You can use a Locksmith kit on a mechanical lock, and on a maglock casing (or other locksmith challenge).
Why can't use lockpick on Maglock, I have seen many Locksmiths (http://www.amelialocksmithsunnyisles.com/residential/) who use lockpick tools in maglock .Can you explain here this ?
I don't think you are following what a "Maglock" is...
Maglock is short for Magnetic Lock. There are no tumblers in a magnetic lock for an lockpick to manipulate, as everything is done through the use of electricity to generate a magnetic field.
The most basic maglocks consist of 4 basic items:
A control pad to regulate the flow of electricity (this is where you enter your combo, or a simple push button for some, or an electronic card reader)
A transformer to take the AC input and convert it to DC, or an independent battery to supply DC electricity.
A Plate or bar in the door to be magnetized
A plate or Bar in the frame for the door to adhere to.
I have installed much more complex systems in secure areas, hospitals, government facilities, mines and power stations, but the basics stay mostly the same...
The only way to open them is to tamper with the either the electric current to the plate (but since this is INSIDE the door, you might as well destroy the door because you'll have to if its closed), tamper with the signal from the control station. (easier to do if just a push button system, much harder to do if combination style or card reader). Which is why an electronics toolkit is needed to open these in SR.
Autopickers and lockpicks only work on manual, mechanical locks because the work on the principle of manipulating the pins and gears of a lock into thinking you have the key, which is not a function of a maglock.
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I've worked at a facility that used keys to open magnetically locked doors. That might be what raymondsmith is thinking of. Really, maglock is just the sealing mechanism, and keys (tumbler/pins) are the verification method. Nothing says you can't combine them. You just need the right tool to bypass the right verification system. Lockpicks, sequencer, and key card being the most common before biometric-based.
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Are you sure that was a magnetic lock Kiirnodel? The reason you don't use a key pn maglocks is safety. Due to the need to complete a circut to engage the magnet, safety demands there be a speration between you and that circut. Otherwise YOU could be added to the circut and killed! (The amperage needed to generate the field is high enough to kill you about 5000 times over!)
This is why they are generally insolated inputs like push buttons, keyreaders, and pads.... using a key/tumbler system plus the added safety devices (yes it can be done) to prevent electrocution would be surpremely expensive!
Some facilities (gas stations are the most common) use both a Bar and tumbler AND a maglock.... Bar and tumbler for when they close for the night/employee not in the building and a Maglock to limit customer entry during security hours. (Employee pushes a button to open/lock the door from the cointer to allow customers to enter).
Usually these are 2 seperate systems as this is much cheaper then a key operated maglock.
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I worked at a locked facility. Most of the doors were secured with some sort of magnetic lock. Specifically, there was a magnetic section in the door frame that secured to a metal plate on the door (sometimes 2 or more of these). Default for the doors was locked, so when the door closed it secured.
To open these doors, we had a key which we would use on a panel in the wall. Inserting and turning the key around 45-90 degrees would turn off the lock for as long as you held the key in that position. Turning the key back at all would reengage the lock. Some of the doors also had a button somewhere that would disengage the lock remotely. Usually those buttons were themselves in secure rooms.
There were also some locks that were bar/tumbler, mostly for single doors. Those magnetic ones were double doors, so bar/tumbler wouldn't have been very effective.
In any case, not sure if that is considered a maglock system technically, but it was definitely magnetically secured and the only way to disengage it was to use a key.
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Yea, that is a maglock system. And an expensive one. This is due to either it being a 2 stage system, or to the safety systems that would have to be in place.
In a 2 stage system, turning the key would not activate/deactivate the maglock itself, but the would activate an isolated circuit that would, thus protecting you from being included it the maglock circuit and receiving 50 to 200 amps of current, enough to kill you 200 to 4000 times over. If it was a 2 stage system, there would be a delay of about a half second to 2 seconds between turning the key and the magnetic field collapsing.
If there is no delay, then they are relying on a Whetstone transformer bridge to keep the current from shunting through the key and killing you... at the cost of some VERY expensive transformers! (about $300 to $500 each, and you need 4, coupled with diodes which also cost in the range of $200 each). so all said, they are spending about $1500 to $3000 a door....
Not something you spend when there are cheaper ways to do it. (rail doors would be just as effective with a bolt system, and cost less... IF there is the space to install them) if its not storing something valuable.
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Sorry, electric security entry ways and devices is sort of "my thing".... I have installed hundreds of them over the years, and maintaining, repairing and servicing hem is about 15% of the work the company I work for does, So I have seen A LOT of various security door systems and arrangements, know their general operating costs, and how much they cost and the time it takes to install them...
And turn keys is just not that popular of a system due to the high costs involved, especially since the same system can be done with a card reader for about 60% of the price, provides the same level of security (need a card instead of a key), and has less parts prone to failure (thus killing the key user or just stop working)
And I definitely WOULD NOT want to go mucking around with an autopicker in one of these locks! chances are nothing would happen.... but IF it did, you'd never know it!
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Hmm, couldn't the bar/tumbler be made out of a non-conductive material that when turned in the correct direction moved something to disrupt the circuit? That doesn't seem like it would be that expensive or dangerous.
I know for the facility I worked at, we used the same key for both the magnetic and non-magnetic locks. For the dead-bolt locks, a pass-card system would have been impractical, and the need for all of the employees to carry access to every door is why we had keys. I have no idea how expensive the maglock system was, but from a use perspective, the whole thing worked well.
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Hmm, couldn't the bar/tumbler be made out of a non-conductive material that when turned in the correct direction moved something to disrupt the circuit?
Not at the length to Amp ratio. Amperages to funny things when you get up to that level of an electro magnet. The bar would have to be over 4 inches long, and made from either ceramic, wood, or other substance.... almost all metallics conduct, and conduct well.. Just a large bar would place a high amount of torque pressure on the key, which most likely bend it.
Possible is was a relay system, but then you would have a delay between the key turn and the maglock turning off.... mind you, you probably wouldn't notice the delay as to actually notice it, you would have to be pushing on the door at the exact instant you were turning the key, and timing the whole thing.... which would only be in the .75 to 1.5 second range...(an eternity for electricity)
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Conventional lock triggers relay. Relay triggers contact in power supply. Maglock turns off, after a momentary delay for the signal to get through. It's inelegant, but doable. However, unless you're, like, in a hotel or something where the aesthetics of an old fashioned key lock are something you value, there's no reason to ever do that.
If you're looking for a simple means of disabling the lock, if you know the design, you may just be able to cut to the chase, take out a torch, and melt your way through the wiring going to or from the power supply. Safest point would be the 120V going to the transformer, but really, there are a lot of single point failures you could, with a moment, take advantage of to disable the lock. Not gonna be subtle, but it's not as loud as taking a step to the left and blowing down the significantly less reinforced wall.
That is, of course, assuming you know where to find the wire you want.