Shadowrun
Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: TheWizurd on <06-22-19/2227:07>
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The card for the sword Has a DV of 3P and an AV of 9. The Predator that Rude gets a DV of 4P and AV of 9 at close. Why would Rude ever use the sword beside RP?
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Maybe you're in Neo-Tokyo where swords are legal but guns aren't?
Maybe you know you have to get past a chem sniffer, so you'd rather not carry ammo around?
Maybe you're afraid of hackers, and if your sword gets bricked at least you know you can still chop people with your weapon?
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The fact that melee weapons in 6e do not add str is going to lead many to ask these sorts of questions eventually.
I do think TheWizurd has a legit point, melee weapons are harder and more dangerous to use in setting with guns, generally this risk vs reward is addressed in other games by making melee weapons do more damage. So I can certainly understand why someone would ask why equip a character with what seems to be a clearly inferior and harder to use weapon.
I don't know what the rules for concealing weapons are in 6e, but most people consider a pistol more concealable then a sword.
NT in 5e does let you open carry swords, so i'd say that argument holds water.
As to bricking the last outline for matrix stuff for 6e I read suggested bricking was once again no longer likely as you once more needing to roll to find a device. But I could clearly be wrong about that. Does the QSR address it? And if so, does anyone know if they have anything in common with 6e CRB?
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I can perhaps see the need for the sword in case you get hacked, as a backup. Doesn't seem practical to carry around for that one circumstance. Like many on these boards, I have been playing since '89. The Katana at least is a symbol of the Street Sam. For RP purposes it would be good to carry a sword I guess. From what little I playes this box set it seems that Strength has become a dump stat.
I am not saying 6e sucks it doesn't. I actually love the game. Mainly for the fact that it's quicker and easier to teach. I still love 5e and would play it. I finally introduced my teen D&D group to Shadowrun last night, my son and his friends. They absolutely loved the game.
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Honestly, Strength already was my dumpstat in SR5: Shock Gloves and Stun Batons were a better choice for me, allowing me to ditch Strength like crazy. Physical Limit was the only reason I put at least some karma into it. As for katana: Since its description said it was a 2-handed weapon, a Sword was by far superior in SR5. But then again, you'd only carry a blade if you were a melee fighter (aka Adept with a Weapon Focus), since otherwise guns and unarmed were a better choice (unarmed for the smuggling-in part, guns for distance).
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Honestly, Strength already was my dumpstat in SR5: Shock Gloves and Stun Batons were a better choice for me, allowing me to ditch Strength like crazy. Physical Limit was the only reason I put at least some karma into it. As for katana: Since its description said it was a 2-handed weapon, a Sword was by far superior in SR5. But then again, you'd only carry a blade if you were a melee fighter (aka Adept with a Weapon Focus), since otherwise guns and unarmed were a better choice (unarmed for the smuggling-in part, guns for distance).
We're getting off topic a bit, but yes I'd agree in 5e the primary reason for not dumping STR was because it was so important to Physical Limits.
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Honestly, Strength already was my dumpstat in SR5: Shock Gloves and Stun Batons were a better choice for me, allowing me to ditch Strength like crazy. Physical Limit was the only reason I put at least some karma into it. As for katana: Since its description said it was a 2-handed weapon, a Sword was by far superior in SR5. But then again, you'd only carry a blade if you were a melee fighter (aka Adept with a Weapon Focus), since otherwise guns and unarmed were a better choice (unarmed for the smuggling-in part, guns for distance).
It was if you weren’t building around it. Now even if you are building around what strength should effect it’s still a dump stat. Shock gloves are great but a strength build massively outpassed it and also could factor into ranged damage with knives.
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Str might have been your dumpstat but it wasn't rendered irrelevant.
you could build useful characters around str. and it had it's utility for many things a shadowrunner does. Making it part of the physical limit was a great idea.
How anyone thought putting a melee weapon in the hand of a troll has the same effect as a melee weapon in the hand of a pixie is beyond me.
Honestly, Strength already was my dumpstat in SR5: Shock Gloves and Stun Batons were a better choice for me, allowing me to ditch Strength like crazy. Physical Limit was the only reason I put at least some karma into it. As for katana: Since its description said it was a 2-handed weapon, a Sword was by far superior in SR5. But then again, you'd only carry a blade if you were a melee fighter (aka Adept with a Weapon Focus), since otherwise guns and unarmed were a better choice (unarmed for the smuggling-in part, guns for distance).
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Logic kind of fell into the same spot. Unless you were a decker or hermetic you could safely dump it. Let the hermetic or decker pick up first aid. But if you were building around it, it was useful. Now I can’t fathom building around it as it’s virtually useless even when you do. Absolutely boggling this got through. And yes you could always work around strength in melee before with electric weapons. But your mage could have been a shaman as well.
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I assume strength increases your melee attack rating, so it should help you generate edge.
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I assume strength increases your melee attack rating, so it should help you generate edge.
Woo. 1 point of edge is one die roll. The difference in 1 strength and 15 is 1 die rerolled.
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I didn't say it was good :P You can do other stuff too though, edge is versatile, iirc it's 4 edge to use exploding dice, you can do that every two rounds can't you? Seems pretty valuable if so.
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I assume strength increases your melee attack rating, so it should help you generate edge.
It does not with melee weapons.
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I assume strength increases your melee attack rating, so it should help you generate edge.
The box seems to suggest AR of weapons is fixed though we did hear unarmed uses Strength iirc? I'll check the box pdf files after I finish relaxing in front of the tv.
Edit: Thanks non-grognard! Now I can remain seated!
Does the box have lifting rules?
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I assume strength increases your melee attack rating, so it should help you generate edge.
The box seems to suggest AR of weapons is fixed though we did hear unarmed uses Strength iirc? I'll check the box pdf files after I finish relaxing in front of the tv.
Edit: Thanks non-grognard! Now I can remain seated!
Does the box have lifting rules?
I actually don't have it, I'm doing things the extremely-painful-way and waiting for the CRB lol. I just recall hearing about strength boosting melee attack rating on a stream, I could be wrong as it was a while ago now.
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Logic kind of fell into the same spot. Unless you were a decker or hermetic you could safely dump it. Let the hermetic or decker pick up first aid. But if you were building around it, it was useful. Now I can’t fathom building around it as it’s virtually useless even when you do. Absolutely boggling this got through. And yes you could always work around strength in melee before with electric weapons. But your mage could have been a shaman as well.
If you are referring to Logic, it's still a must for Hermatic Mages and Deckers. Drain is more brutal in Shadowrun and Hermatic mages use it to resist Drain. The mage player in my game was willing to go unconscious from drain to one shot the Sam.
Deckers use Logic for most of their Pools.
Strength is only useful for hand to hand combat. If that's not your build, drop it.
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I assume strength increases your melee attack rating, so it should help you generate edge.
The box seems to suggest AR of weapons is fixed though we did hear unarmed uses Strength iirc? I'll check the box pdf files after I finish relaxing in front of the tv.
Edit: Thanks non-grognard! Now I can remain seated!
Does the box have lifting rules?
I did not see any lifting rules.
Str would only be used if you are doing an unarmed build.
Logic is required for Hermatic Mages and Deckers.
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Logic kind of fell into the same spot. Unless you were a decker or hermetic you could safely dump it. Let the hermetic or decker pick up first aid. But if you were building around it, it was useful. Now I can’t fathom building around it as it’s virtually useless even when you do. Absolutely boggling this got through. And yes you could always work around strength in melee before with electric weapons. But your mage could have been a shaman as well.
If you are referring to Logic, it's still a must for Hermatic Mages and Deckers. Drain is more brutal in Shadowrun and Hermatic mages use it to resist Drain. The mage player in my game was willing to go unconscious from drain to one shot the Sam.
Deckers use Logic for most of their Pools.
Strength is only useful for hand to hand combat. If that's not your build, drop it.
For strength unless you are unarmed combat focussed id still drop it. 1 edge isn’t worth the resources.
And yeah I want clear. I switched to talking about strength 1/2 way in at the now I can’t fathom building around it part.
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I assume strength increases your melee attack rating, so it should help you generate edge.
The box seems to suggest AR of weapons is fixed though we did hear unarmed uses Strength iirc? I'll check the box pdf files after I finish relaxing in front of the tv.
Edit: Thanks non-grognard! Now I can remain seated!
Does the box have lifting rules?
I did not see any lifting rules.
Str would only be used if you are doing an unarmed build.
Logic is required for Hermatic Mages and Deckers.
I’m curious about how bad the lifting rules are this edition. 5e rules place me as peak human in strength and body, note I’m no where near it.
I’m hoping for a more geometric progression. Linear it’s hard to show exactly how much stronger peak human is than average on a scale of 1-6 and how ridiculously strong a 10 strength/body 600 pound troll would be.
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I'm not sure if it's reflected in the QSR, but there IS very good reason to not dump STR in 6e if you're using melee weapons.
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I'm not sure if it's reflected in the QSR, but there IS very good reason to not dump STR in 6e if you're using melee weapons.
Iirc the word is used 4x in the rules. So not anything you may have spotted under NDA. Alas we must wait and see. :'(
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I'm not sure if it's reflected in the QSR, but there IS very good reason to not dump STR in 6e if you're using melee weapons.
There is no good reason to boost Str stated in the box set except for unarmed. I am going off a simplified rules set and understand that, basic set is in the title.
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The problem here is that the errata team got to see the full rules but not the box, while demo team received the box but not the full rules, and we are both under NDA. Neither of us know what the others know. =P Fortunately with the box now out I can look things up in the pdf files I have (to prepare events) and share. But SSDR is still limited.
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I actually don't have it, I'm doing things the extremely-painful-way and waiting for the CRB lol. I just recall hearing about strength boosting melee attack rating on a stream, I could be wrong as it was a while ago now.
Based upon everything said to date, all I have heard is str only use seems to be unarmed damage. Looking at the Rigger Dossier it has unarmed (rating?) at 6 though the related pool seems to be 3, So i maybe it adds to Unarmed rating? But math wise adding strength only goes to 5, so that's not consistent. So perhaps its Pool x str or time just x2?
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Looking at the Rigger Dossier it has unarmed (rating?) at 6 though the related pool seems to be 3,
This is purely speculative on my part. If you don't have a full pound box of kosher salt to take this with, you may be better off just skipping it.
Since that rating is in the Attribute block section, and next to the Defense rating, I'm guessing that is an Unarmed Defense value rather than anything that has to do with attacking Unarmed. Kind of like an unarmed parry rating.
If it had to do with attacking, I would think it would be in the block on the second page that has the FN HAR Assault Rifle.
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Looking at the Rigger Dossier it has unarmed (rating?) at 6 though the related pool seems to be 3,
This is purely speculative on my part. If you don't have a full pound box of kosher salt to take this with, you may be better off just skipping it.
Since that rating is in the Attribute block section, and next to the Defense rating, I'm guessing that is an Unarmed Defense value rather than anything that has to do with attacking Unarmed. Kind of like an unarmed parry rating.
If it had to do with attacking, I would think it would be in the block on the second page that has the FN HAR Assault Rifle.
Page two does say "Primary Weapon" I am doubtful that her primary weapon is unarmed.
The characters in the boxed set do not have a number in the unarmed slot.
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I don't know for sure but I'd hazard a guess that's supposed to be Unarmed Attack Rating.
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The card for the sword Has a DV of 3P and an AV of 9. The Predator that Rude gets a DV of 4P and AV of 9 at close. Why would Rude ever use the sword beside RP?
why would you have used a sword over the predator in earlier editions?
only book I have currently available to check is 5E ... assuming a strength of 5 or less the sword is less accurate and does the same damage or less
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Statwise it's worse yes. But I would use a sword because it's silent, because I can cut things with it, because it prevents a ganger with a club from getting too up close and personal. So I'd say it has its uses.
Plus that sword really drives home you're not just another thug with a gun. You're a CRAZY thug. And that makes all the difference.
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Statwise it's worse yes. But I would use a sword because it's silent, because I can cut things with it, because it prevents a ganger with a club from getting too up close and personal. So I'd say it has its uses.
Plus that sword really drives home you're not just another thug with a gun. You're a CRAZY thug. And that makes all the difference.
exactly my point, the Predator has almost always been the better weapon when just looking at the stats
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Incidentally, in my campaign, with the old skill system of SR4 and SR5, 'that NPC used a sword well but you know for a fact he only uses clubs and fists' once was a big hint that said mundane NPC was pulling Spirit shenanigans somehow.
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I don't know for sure but I'd hazard a guess that's supposed to be Unarmed Attack Rating.
I also guessed unarmed attack rating, do we know how it's calculated? It's clearly not Agi+Unarmed, it's clearly not Str+Unarmed, and it's also not Str+Agi+Unarmed. It could be Agi+Unarmed x str or the reverse.
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Why use a sword in 5e? The most common answer was Weapon Foci. You couldn't make a gun weapon focus. Are weapon foci a thing in 6e?
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I don't know for sure but I'd hazard a guess that's supposed to be Unarmed Attack Rating.
I also guessed unarmed attack rating, do we know how it's calculated? It's clearly not Agi+Unarmed, it's clearly not Str+Unarmed, and it's also not Str+Agi+Unarmed. It could be Agi+Unarmed x str or the reverse.
Str+ Rea
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I don't know for sure but I'd hazard a guess that's supposed to be Unarmed Attack Rating.
I also guessed unarmed attack rating, do we know how it's calculated? It's clearly not Agi+Unarmed, it's clearly not Str+Unarmed, and it's also not Str+Agi+Unarmed. It could be Agi+Unarmed x str or the reverse.
Str+ Rea
Interesting. I assume that's a defense rating then?
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no, that's the attack rating ... defense is still Body+Armor
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Why use a sword in 5e? The most common answer was Weapon Foci. You couldn't make a gun weapon focus. Are weapon foci a thing in 6e?
Or you were strong enough it was bad ass. Unless cyber or magic enhances melee damage I can’t see anyone using one this edition.
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Why use a sword in 5e? The most common answer was Weapon Foci. You couldn't make a gun weapon focus. Are weapon foci a thing in 6e?
Or you were strong enough it was bad ass. Unless cyber or magic enhances melee damage I can’t see anyone using one this edition.
Style. RPees. Pixie. Reach (if that is still a thing). Weapon Focus for more attack dice (if Weapon Foci work like previous editions). Physical damage instead of Stun. Strength dump stat, but don't want a monowhip. Punching Fire Spirits really hurts. Specialization / Focus /Whatever the 6th edition thing is called doesn't work for Unarmed much like it didn't in 5th.
Mostly RPees.
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no, that's the attack rating ... defense is still Body+Armor
Well didn’t see that coming. Nice to be surprised.
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The card for the sword Has a DV of 3P and an AV of 9. The Predator that Rude gets a DV of 4P and AV of 9 at close. Why would Rude ever use the sword beside RP?
why would you have used a sword over the predator in earlier editions?
only book I have currently available to check is 5E ... assuming a strength of 5 or less the sword is less accurate and does the same damage or less
Same with 3rd. Katanas and swords are less concealable then a Predator III, and have higher cost and avaliability. You need a Str 6 with a katana, and Str 7 with a sword to match the damage of the Predator.
AKA, don't bring a sword to a gun fight. Bring it to look bad-ass when meeting the Yakuza!
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Why use a sword in 5e? The most common answer was Weapon Foci. You couldn't make a gun weapon focus. Are weapon foci a thing in 6e?
Or you were strong enough it was bad ass. Unless cyber or magic enhances melee damage I can’t see anyone using one this edition.
Style. RPees. Pixie. Reach (if that is still a thing). Weapon Focus for more attack dice (if Weapon Foci work like previous editions). Physical damage instead of Stun. Strength dump stat, but don't want a monowhip. Punching Fire Spirits really hurts. Specialization / Focus /Whatever the 6th edition thing is called doesn't work for Unarmed much like it didn't in 5th.
Mostly RPees.
Eh Spirit armor is really strong again right? So if weapon foci still by pass magic hardened armor and still add dice and assuming Adept powers are liked they used to be I don't see why folk wouldn't. Dump str, jack body to max, get your weapon focus katana out, max adept initiative, it's a classic build. No reason in the 6e idiom that's been discussed so far it shouldn't work.
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no, that's the attack rating ... defense is still Body+Armor
6 is a relatively low AR. Which it should be for the Rigger character. Average DR in box set seems to be 7.
From box set it play, it does seem that there is no more standing out in the open and exchanging fire, however. You should always spend a minor action on "find cover". The mage has a lower initiative and he was caught out in the open for the first round and was obliterated. He would have died, not unconscious, but died in the first round, if I hadn't forbid it. We were doing literal Battle Royale.
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The card for the sword Has a DV of 3P and an AV of 9. The Predator that Rude gets a DV of 4P and AV of 9 at close. Why would Rude ever use the sword beside RP?
why would you have used a sword over the predator in earlier editions?
only book I have currently available to check is 5E ... assuming a strength of 5 or less the sword is less accurate and does the same damage or less
Same with 3rd. Katanas and swords are less concealable then a Predator III, and have higher cost and avaliability. You need a Str 6 with a katana, and Str 7 with a sword to match the damage of the Predator.
AKA, don't bring a sword to a gun fight. Bring it to look bad-ass when meeting the Yakuza!
Though if you had a 9 strength it was hitting for 12m. Depending on edition you might have dikote to make it S damage. At that point it’s cool and effective.
Which imo works. Guns generally should be better but for superhuman characters them getting more bang out if melee also works. From what we’ve seen so far even people superhumanly strong are less effective with a sword than a heavy pistol. I don’t consider that a good thing.
People say don’t bring a sword to a gun fight and for normal people that’s valid. Though Superman would be ridiculously less effective with a pistol. While SR characters aren’t on that scale of superhuman they are still superhuman they move faster, close distances in a blink of an eye and can hit harder than most guns. If built for it melee should be incredibly deadly. When you can run 60mph and kick bank vault doors off their hinges how effective melee is for you is on a slightly different scale than our reality. Sure at long ranged none of that matters but in a office complex you probably aren’t at long ranges very often.
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The card for the sword Has a DV of 3P and an AV of 9. The Predator that Rude gets a DV of 4P and AV of 9 at close. Why would Rude ever use the sword beside RP?
why would you have used a sword over the predator in earlier editions?
only book I have currently available to check is 5E ... assuming a strength of 5 or less the sword is less accurate and does the same damage or less
Same with 3rd. Katanas and swords are less concealable then a Predator III, and have higher cost and avaliability. You need a Str 6 with a katana, and Str 7 with a sword to match the damage of the Predator.
AKA, don't bring a sword to a gun fight. Bring it to look bad-ass when meeting the Yakuza!
Though if you had a 9 strength it was hitting for 12m. Depending on edition you might have dikote to make it S damage. At that point it’s cool and effective.
Which imo works. Guns generally should be better but for superhuman characters them getting more bang out if melee also works. From what we’ve seen so far even people superhumanly strong are less effective with a sword than a heavy pistol. I don’t consider that a good thing.
People say don’t bring a sword to a gun fight and for normal people that’s valid. Though Superman would be ridiculously less effective with a pistol. While SR characters aren’t on that scale of superhuman they are still superhuman they move faster, close distances in a blink of an eye and can hit harder than most guns. If built for it melee should be incredibly deadly. When you can run 60mph and kick bank vault doors off their hinges how effective melee is for you is on a slightly different scale than our reality. Sure at long ranged none of that matters but in a office complex you probably aren’t at long ranges very often.
Most of us don't have enough to make that call. Those that have seen the full book hint that there are rules in place that make it a viable option. We will know at GenCon. In the basic set, it isn't a viable option.
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Twice in the last few days, people who can’t speak fully due to NDA have said that in the full rules strength is not a dump stat for melee characters. To what extent that it matters we will have to wait-and-see.
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It not being a dump stat doesn’t mean it effects melee damage.
Weapons don’t have a strength minimum. Strength does not effect melee dv. It still uses agility to attack. Maybe it helps with edge maybe strength creates your melee defense value. Maybe there is something else. I kind of doubt there is a hidden save. I suspect people are just overvaluing 1 edge. Though who knows maybe there is a 1 edge use that allows you to add 1/2 your strength to your melee dv or something.
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It not being a dump stat doesn’t mean it effects melee damage.
Weapons don’t have a strength minimum. Strength does not effect melee dv. It still uses agility to attack. Maybe it helps with edge maybe strength creates your melee defense value. Maybe there is something else. I kind of doubt there is a hidden save. I suspect people are just overvaluing 1 edge. Though who knows maybe there is a 1 edge use that allows you to add 1/2 your strength to your melee dv or something.
That could be interesting. We know from the rigger dossier positive qualities that there’s more uses for edge then what we know. Maybe they have a system that gives melee some versatility like SA/BF/FA for guns. Something like using your weapon for offense or defense and changing the damage/melee rating based on that.
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The main reason I don't see Strength as a dump stat is the buzz I've heard around special melee actions. (Trip, knock down, disarm) which are all Str based. Common scenario I hear is if you do str 1 or 2, prepared to have your weapon ceremoniously ripped from your hands or fall flat on your back.
Main problem I see with this is that it further buffs unarmed, where strength affects DV AND adds to ability to use things like Grapple, Disarm, etc. Becomes really hard to think of a scenario you'd want melee weapon other than your fist.....other than potentially reach? Haven't looked at the range of some of the melee weapons, but if they can go into the next range, instead of just the closest, could see a use there....
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It not being a dump stat doesn’t mean it effects melee damage.
Weapons don’t have a strength minimum. Strength does not effect melee dv. It still uses agility to attack. Maybe it helps with edge maybe strength creates your melee defense value. Maybe there is something else. I kind of doubt there is a hidden save. I suspect people are just overvaluing 1 edge. Though who knows maybe there is a 1 edge use that allows you to add 1/2 your strength to your melee dv or something.
That could be interesting. We know from the rigger dossier positive qualities that there’s more uses for edge then what we know. Maybe they have a system that gives melee some versatility like SA/BF/FA for guns. Something like using your weapon for offense or defense and changing the damage/melee rating based on that.
Funny that you mention firing modes, because my current houserule draft (based on the QSR) goes like this:
- For every Point of Strength below the Base Damage of a Melee Weapon, decrease the AR by 2.
- Furthermore, for every full 2 Points of Strength above the Damage Code of the Melee Weapon, you may increase the Damage Code of the Weapon by one and decrease the AR by 2 when making an Attack.
The first paragraph adds a soft form of Strength requirement. The second Paragraph adds a kind of "Mighty Blow"-style option, that works a bit like the way Firing Modes/Recoil are handled - which is intended, repetition is easier to remember ;) With this rule, Toby the Troll should usually be able to boost Melee Weapon Damage past his unarmed damage as long as the base AR is not too low. Of course, there are still Melee Weapons where these rules doesn‘t apply, like Monowhips or Stun Batons. I also have yet to see the finalized Damage Codes and Attack Ratings to see if this is viable. Maybe I´ll add this sentence to the first paragraph: "for every point of Strength above the base Damage Code, add 1 to the AR of the Weapon".
Or something completely different, I´m open to suggestions.
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I'm not sure if it's reflected in the QSR, but there IS very good reason to not dump STR in 6e if you're using melee weapons.
What is that good reason? Simply to avoid being disarmed?
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I'm not sure if it's reflected in the QSR, but there IS very good reason to not dump STR in 6e if you're using melee weapons.
What is that good reason? Simply to avoid being disarmed?
Grapples as well.
Not sure it’s worth it to grapple on offense though. I’d you focussed on strength to do it just punching the dude probably handles the issue and one action punch is better than 2 actions grapple them hurt them. But the grapple take down thing does absurd damage if the grappler is a troll or orc.
For disarm since you focused on agility and dumped strength you just bonus minor action draw a gun and shoot the dude Indiana Jones style. So hey blocker blow that minor action, my Remington roomsweeper is good up close.
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I am mega skeptical of the str to avoid disarm argument for a few reasons. Its so expensive to raise that threshold and it goes up really slowly so either your opposition is not scaling or anyone who matters disarms you anyway u til you get into str scores where you would just use unarmed anyway.
Meanwhile, know what is rather cheap? Extra swords. It isn't really sensical llre wise but because disarm needs to be a core mechanic to make str matter either str doesn't matter or you can just carry like 5 swords and look like a Naruto character and totally invalidate the mechanic anyway.
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Well if your strength is 3, that means the person trying disarm you is probably going to need 9 dice. Since Wrest is an Edge Action, there's no edge shenanigans available for manipulating your dice outcomes. And since average Agility is 2, and 4 ranks represents professional grade skill, regular chumps aren't likely to be knocking your sword away, just so long as you don't try gaming the system and going with 1 or 2 Strength.