[Tallyrand]

Ok, new GM is a bit of a misnomer, I've been running games for more than a decade now, but new to running Shadowrun.  I'm running a concept game that will be starting this weekend, all of the runners are parolees who are being forces by the owner of their Halfway house to do runs.  What the PCs don't know is that they are actually on a reality show and that everything they do is being recorded (I don't expect this to remain secret forever but I'm going to hold onto it for as long as I can). 

To facilitate the Reality Show feel of the game I'm only having them go on a Run every other session, and runs will only last one session.  The alternate sessions will be all RP in the house with some prompting by me through an NPC ('mandatory' therapy session, job training etc) and through a player who I've let in on the gag and employed as the producers stooge to get conversation started. 

Ok, so my question, the Shadowrun rules don't seem to facilitate purely social encounters very well and I was wondering if anyone here has any advice on how to keep things flowing and interesting.  I'm not a fan of the whole "just ignore the rules' thing that many GMs suggest, I feel that if someone spent resources on social skills they should get the benefit of that expenditure.  I'm contemplating just using a completely different rules set for the 'House' sessions but as one of the players is very new to RPGs I'm worried it will confuse her. Are there any house rules that you have found to be effective?  Are there any rules modules from other games that you think work well with Shadowrun?

Anyway, thanks for any advice or suggestions.

[Volomon]

Ok, new GM is a bit of a misnomer, I've been running games for more than a decade now, but new to running Shadowrun.  I'm running a concept game that will be starting this weekend, all of the runners are parolees who are being forces by the owner of their Halfway house to do runs.  What the PCs don't know is that they are actually on a reality show and that everything they do is being recorded (I don't expect this to remain secret forever but I'm going to hold onto it for as long as I can). 

To facilitate the Reality Show feel of the game I'm only having them go on a Run every other session, and runs will only last one session.  The alternate sessions will be all RP in the house with some prompting by me through an NPC ('mandatory' therapy session, job training etc) and through a player who I've let in on the gag and employed as the producers stooge to get conversation started. 

Ok, so my question, the Shadowrun rules don't seem to facilitate purely social encounters very well and I was wondering if anyone here has any advice on how to keep things flowing and interesting.  I'm not a fan of the whole "just ignore the rules' thing that many GMs suggest, I feel that if someone spent resources on social skills they should get the benefit of that expenditure.  I'm contemplating just using a completely different rules set for the 'House' sessions but as one of the players is very new to RPGs I'm worried it will confuse her. Are there any house rules that you have found to be effective?  Are there any rules modules from other games that you think work well with Shadowrun?

Anyway, thanks for any advice or suggestions.

I'm working off that fact that this is SR5.

To make this work is difficult, first off if they are relatively mediocre Shadowrunners think of them as elite killing machines.  Why don't they just off the owner?  What does he have on them that would prevent them from taking that form of action, perhaps at minimum a implanted security device?  In Shadowrun the default driving force is being Sinless needing a payday.  Just the fact that they are parolees means they are being watched and they have a SIN a criminal SIN.  I mean during this entire process the runners would have to broadcast their criminal SIN just walking down the street to get juice, everyone would know what they are, Criminals.  Of course I assume they would be allowed to turn it off while on the run.  If someone mouse farts down the street from where they are located on the grid, they could be brought in for questioning at random and held up to 48 hours.  Additionally where they live at all times must be public knowledge.  Meaning a revenge hit would be extremely easy.  The Reality Show would make everything even worse.  New runners to the market who have their IDs blasted on any available media already have their careers ruined.  You could hide their faces and such though, or augment their look. 

Every RPG game facilitates social encounters it's called role playing.  The skills involved are numerous in shadowrun there's an entire section called Social Skills, and there is a Social limit based on a players stats.  I'm not really sure what you would be inventing that would add to social encounters as laid out in the book.


In order for this to work and for them to ever be called real Shadowrunners they would all probably have to get face surgery and/or sex change after they get out of the house.  I've seen players being introduced to media such as a little kid playing with Johnsons nuyen to catch runners who he thinks is cool on cam.  However that is private media and the information could be destroyed by the runners.  I've even seen runners being caught on national media event but their faces obscure from media by a helmet.  I would also make them extremely low level as far as karma goes, street level for instance.

I think adding house rules for the "House" sessions would confuse a veteran of RPG gaming or shadowrun.

[Tallyrand]

I'm working off that fact that this is SR5.

Ah yes, SR5 sorry.

To make this work is difficult, first off if they are relatively mediocre Shadowrunners think of them as elite killing machines.  Why don't they just off the owner?  What does he have on them that would prevent them from taking that form of action, perhaps at minimum a implanted security device?  In Shadowrun the default driving force is being Sinless needing a payday.  Just the fact that they are parolees means they are being watched and they have a SIN a criminal SIN.  I mean during this entire process the runners would have to broadcast their criminal SIN just walking down the street to get juice, everyone would know what they are, Criminals.  Of course I assume they would be allowed to turn it off while on the run.  If someone mouse farts down the street from where they are located on the grid, they could be brought in for questioning at random and held up to 48 hours.  Additionally where they live at all times must be public knowledge.  Meaning a revenge hit would be extremely easy.  The Reality Show would make everything even worse.  New runners to the market who have their IDs blasted on any available media already have their careers ruined.  You could hide their faces and such though, or augment their look. 

I'm not to worried about the characters escaping, the players know the score (that this is a game about people being in a halfway house, so they've got to stay in the house).  There will be a general threat of, if you don't do what we say you will be arrested again and have to serve out the remainder of your sentence and then some by some unspecified mechanism.  The owners of the house give comparatively substantial freedom and even pay competitive rates for jobs and none of the players have given any indication of the desire to bolt.  The employers suppress their criminal sins and have provided them with high quality fake IDs for going out and about.  So far as the show goes, that will be a problem that will come up later, the show will not begin airing promos until we're a year into the game.

Every RPG game facilitates social encounters it's called role playing.  The skills involved are numerous in shadowrun there's an entire section called Social Skills, and there is a Social limit based on a players stats.  I'm not really sure what you would be inventing that would add to social encounters as laid out in the book.

The difficulty with player to player social interactions in games like Shadowrun is that they are completely binary.  Any given social interaction is handled with a single die roll.  If you want to convince this guy that you didn't eat the last piece of cheese, roll Con; if you want to convince him that you heard that Julie told Sam that Jim thinks he's a moron and that therefor he should kick Jim's ass, also roll Con.  The social rules in Shadowrun simply aren't robust enough to simulate realistic human interaction.  Fate is a good example of a game that handles this better, but it doesn't slide in as a module very well.

In order for this to work and for them to ever be called real Shadowrunners they would all probably have to get face surgery and/or sex change after they get out of the house.  I've seen players being introduced to media such as a little kid playing with Johnsons nuyen to catch runners who he thinks is cool on cam.  However that is private media and the information could be destroyed by the runners.  I've even seen runners being caught on national media event but their faces obscure from media by a helmet.  I would also make them extremely low level as far as karma goes, street level for instance..

What they do after the House is on them, but you're right it'll probably be awkward.

[DigitalZombie]

White wolfs world of darkness had a social "combat" system in one of their vampire source books. It basically gave you Nerve(social hitpoints) guile (social defence) and a bunch of "social combat" manoeuvres. I found the system well thought out and exciting. There is naturally a drawback with social encounter systems, it can quickly degenerate to pure dice rolls. Instead of the player saying:  I'm gonna rip your small intestine out your mouth, and rip your large intestine out your butt, and use you as a skipping rope.
He will end up saying: I´ll say something nasty to the guy, ... nice 5 successes on my intimidate roll! does he still have some nerve left?

I´ll try to do a fast conversion, just to give you some ideas.Nerve condition monitor 8+1/2 willpower (like stun) alternatively social limit or composure or a mix.
social defence (like page 141 or composure/judge intention) Full defense (gain willpower  to resist rolls).   getting personal (+4 bonus dice on intimidate/aggressive rolls, no defence roll)    change subject( successful charisma+con gives opponent net hitsx2 as penalty on his next social skill roll, if it was the same roll as last time)  set up(roll some dice, opponent halves his next defence roll) etc Add in a bunch of "equipment bonuses" like knowing he worked as a bunraku, catering male trolls, jim streetsam is in love with decker jill etc.

If a person looses his last nerve, he will do something stupid, getting a hizzy fit, believe the con, ragequit, making a fool off himself, leave with his tail between his legs etc. He will furthermore loose a point of edge, or a point of willpower if has no edge left, -1  social limit and on composure rolls.  Resets after rest period. and gain a point of gameshow notoriety point (not cool when people snickers at you behind your back because "you are the moron that cries on camera".

The winner of the social combat gets 1 edge back (or more if it was truly brutal/challenging) his nerve refreshed, plus 1 on composure rolls, +1 social limit.  Might gain gameshow notoriety or cred, depending on his actions.

People with a high notoriety are of course presented with nasty surprises on their runs, because the audience demands it and the shows darling is of course having an easy time etc.

[Mal-2]

My general experience has been that it's not worth trying to resolve social situations between PCs strictly with die rolls.  Our group typically just plays things out in roleplay, then make a single role of some sort to judge "effectiveness".  The PCs are then free to decide how that influences their own character.  Good rolls are expected to be taken seriously, but not to force characters to do things that would be out of character for them.

It's all very loose, mechanically speaking, but it works for us.

Does anyone have any systems that mediate social interactions between PCs that they really like?  I saw Fate mentioned earlier, I'll have to take a look at their social rules.

[Caradoc]

Here are some of my thoughts...

So all the PCs are real criminals with a SIN, apart from the show's stooge. Parolees in good standing are allowed out of the halfway house with a temporary pass which doesn't display a criminal SIN. Unfortunately for the PCs, they're getting messed around and always seem to cause an infraction that denies them a pass - except when their Mr Johnson wants them to go on a run. Then they get a very limited pass that expires in a short while and limits them to specific locations. The PCs are also tagged so they can't go off reservation and they're either fitted with a bomb collar or shown their surgical scars where a bomb implant has been fitted which may or may not be real.

Calling the place a halfway house is pretty cute since there's no way any normal house would accomodate up to 100 parolees. That doesn't count the staff and security who also make sure the parolees don't get too frisky with their so-called freedom. It's still something of a prison with most people having the freedom to head out through the security gates on passes, but others are on restricted passes due to infractions. Make too much trouble and you'll lose all priveleges and might even get sent back to that hell-hole you were incarcerated in for however many years it was. Too bad for the PCs, they always seem to fuck up and get their passes revoked - just not bad enough to get sent back to the joint.

The NPC parolees are generally all violent types of both sexes (or is that all sexes?), the staff is wary, underpaid and burnt out  and the security is trigger-happy and sometimes use their Predators when stun batons and boots don't do the job. Just your normal everday halfway house in the Sixth World. You'd think it was like a prison with the rules and stuff and cameras everwhere. At least there's some attempt to rehabilitate the guys and teach them a few skills and the place is equipped with a machine shop, small library with limited matrix access, a doctor's examination room, some offices and a games room. The meals are regular, the sun shines (sometimes) and some people have been seen to smile occasionally.

Unfortunately, their Mr Johnson is a bit of a miser and doesn't give them much equipment for their runs. He obviously doesn't care if they mess up and get killed on these jobs, so it looks like the PCs have to take care of themselves. This is where they have to use their social skills on the NPCs living and working in the halfway house. If they need a vehicle for their jobs, they have to cosy up to the assistant manager on night duty who has a sweet modded van that can carry the team. Just got to get the keys and copy them and bypass the vehicle's security system. Need some drugs to take care of some oppostion - seduce the nurse who has the keys to the doctor's office and get the drug safe open. The small library has a Deck with very restricted access, so got to get a staff member's access card to be able to use the Matrix properly. However, it will still have a filter that doesn't let them find out about the reality show or give them greater SIN access outside the halfway house. However, the access card will let them move about the halfway house to get into certain other places as needed like the machine shop, library, manager's office and kitchen. The security people have a control room with a locked armoury - some basic, but useful, weapons here for the runners - access is a bitch. At least they'll be able to dick around with the cameras to stop people find out what they do in the place.

If they really work things right, they can get the parolees with regular passes to get some gear for them on the outside - its just going to cost them either money or services in kind. They may also have some skills that the PCs lack that is useful for their missions and the PCs have to find out how to get the parolee to help them.

Let the PCs select some contacts with those that are criminals likely to be parolees in the halfway house - after all, prison is where they met up and got to interact. This could include a fixer, info broker, smuggler, arms dealer, etc.  This can give the PCs an edge for getting gear, skills or information. Other contacts may have something to do with the halfway house, including staff and security such as a doctor, nurse, mercenary, ex-cop, librarian/decker, mechanic, etc.

[Orpho]

My general experience has been that it's not worth trying to resolve social situations between PCs strictly with die rolls.  Our group typically just plays things out in roleplay, then make a single role of some sort to judge "effectiveness".  The PCs are then free to decide how that influences their own character.  Good rolls are expected to be taken seriously, but not to force characters to do things that would be out of character for them.

It's all very loose, mechanically speaking, but it works for us.

I think there's a lot to be said for the problems in socially adept characters being able to win rolls over other PCs and force them to do something.

You'd be surprised (or not), but most players are more comfortable with other characters being able to shoot their characters with a dice roll than do something that feels, essentially, like mind controlling them with social dice.

I think it's a tricky balance.

[Reaver]

Games systems differ by the level of ROLE-play built into the rules.

White Wolf's games have a huge social test system due to the fact they white Wolf themselves encourage ROLE-play (where you play as your character ALL The time)

While Shadowrun takes a more (as you said) Binary approach. (roll-play)


Both systems have their flaws and advantages...

The advantage of White Wolf's system is a more engrossed game that limits meta-game thinking.

it's disadvantage is that 1: it's hard for the human condition to think outside of that realm, which makes it difficult to play as a reality warping Mage, or an immortal Vampire, or a savage Werewolf.... and 2: the personality of the player more of less shines through and NOT the personality of the character. Meaning the "shy quiet types" play shy, quiet characters.....


The advantage of SR's system is that it gives the player the chance to just describe what the player does, and the dice determine the outcome, (which can be handy when dealing with fantasy tech and magic... as the character actually have an understanding of these things, but the players don't need to) and allows people to play characters outside of their personality.

the disadvantage is that it can make things seem very binary or contrived.... to a degree, but does enforce the Character over the player.


For what you are attempting to do, you are going to have to "bend the rules" a little bit, but this is nothing much to worry about, you have the experience as a GM to make the judgement calls that are required.... but remember, if you rely SOLELY on Rp, you are making a host of skills largely defunct. (etiquette, Con, Negotiation, basically any social test)... which places both you and your characters at a disadvantage (or leverage!)

[Tallyrand]

Social Combat System *snip*

You know I was thinking something along these lines but you've really brought the idea further than I had, I may try this (I've got 2 weeks before the first House games).  The Fate system is very similar to this, and I do love Fate.  The only problem I see is that it's still all or nothing, that you either 'knock out' your opponent and win or you don't and lose.  Fate breaks up the HP track with Aspects (phrases that have mechanical power in game) but I'm trying to avoid any use of aspects since one of my players hates them.

I'm going to tinker with this and give it a try, I'll let you know how it works.

[Tallyrand]

My general experience has been that it's not worth trying to resolve social situations between PCs strictly with die rolls.  Our group typically just plays things out in roleplay, then make a single role of some sort to judge "effectiveness".  The PCs are then free to decide how that influences their own character.  Good rolls are expected to be taken seriously, but not to force characters to do things that would be out of character for them.

It's all very loose, mechanically speaking, but it works for us.

I think there's a lot to be said for the problems in socially adept characters being able to win rolls over other PCs and force them to do something.

You'd be surprised (or not), but most players are more comfortable with other characters being able to shoot their characters with a dice roll than do something that feels, essentially, like mind controlling them with social dice.

I think it's a tricky balance.

On the other side of that argument however (as a person who generally plays very social characters) if you limit the ability of social skills to function then they shouldn't cost as much as physical skills.  Likewise, if you allow a players personal social skills to override their characters than you should do the same for everything shouldn't you?   In my group I'm a pretty persuasive guy, I've got a good sense of humor and given time I can generally get people to see things my way.  If we just role play everything out I'm likely going to be the Charismatic leader of the group whether I'm Cha 1 or Cha 13.  That being said I'm an utter clutz, can barely walk up the stairs without tripping, but still my Agi 8 makes me a ninja.

Basically my only point is, if your Agility and Guns allow you to blow my head of if it's your inclination whether or not you could do it in real life then my Cha and Con should let me convince you of something even if you know it's a lie at the table.

[DigitalZombie]

cool:) Its in vampire requim "the danse macabre" book, and requiem for Rome also has a bit along those lines, dont know if you know anyone that has one of those books.
As a twist you could let the more physically characters get interviewed about weapons and tactics, thereby allowing him to roll his heavy weapons skill in the social challenge instead of negotiation, when trying to convince the other person(and the audience) that the krime cannon is a perfectly viable side arm.
Hmm maybe, after the characters have found out they have become unwittingly media stars, have them do the runs with simrigs, so everything is recorded. Maybe their overall goal is to attain 100 simstar street cred, thereby making them so loved by the audience that the corporation has no choice to let them live, even after they have escaped. kinda like running man, with Arnold Schwarzenegger....(oh wait did those guys die after all???)

While I agree with some of the others about not using social skills on player characters, I would think it would be hilarious if, say the powers that be, found out their ratings dropped by 3,5% and the way to bring it back up was by introducing some romance to the show, the streetsam is then instructed in wooing the decker chick (maybe without the hacker players knowledge) his skill rolls and her resist rolls are then maybe not how their true feelings are but how the audience perceive them to be, that way the players would still feel "in control" of their characters. (until they decide to introduce Gustav the troll tank kamikaze addict as a third wheel, then no one is in control)

[GiraffeShaman]

I go by the minimum effort rule. If a player makes a minimal effort, they get to roll the dice. (Modified by circumstances of course, such as racism and what is being attempted) It's pretty unfair to penalize someone for lacking social skills in real life, much as it'd be unfair to demand someone lift a huge weight before knocking down a door. But insisting that they at least give some verbal component to the attempt is fair in my opinion, and it can also lead to some interesting roleplay results. You can also give positive modifiers for clever conversation choices or exceptional social tactics. You shouldn't penalize someone for not having a charming smile, though.

I used to use this rule in fantasy games for turn attempts. It always stunned me when someone was failing at doing this. I mean, all they had to say was, "Begone vile wretches" or the like. I always allow a roll if something at least close to appropriate is said, regardless of the skill of delivery.

[Orpho]

On the other side of that argument however (as a person who generally plays very social characters) if you limit the ability of social skills to function then they shouldn't cost as much as physical skills.

[...]

Basically my only point is, if your Agility and Guns allow you to blow my head of if it's your inclination whether or not you could do it in real life then my Cha and Con should let me convince you of something even if you know it's a lie at the table.

Three bits here - Obviously in both cases the skill of the player at [Action X] should not determine the skill of the character at [Action X]. I know I can't fire a gun worth a damn while hanging out a VTOL and whistling the latest pop hit, but I've certainly had characters roll that and make it. It's good times, and obvious.

I think we're just going to different levels of player vs. player action at the table. If my PCs start shooting at each other, something has gone terribly wrong in my game (which are generally very collaborative). If you're playing a heavy backstab game, or anything with a lot of PvP, then of course social skills should work as much on PCs as on anyone else.

I just find that, in the games I play generally, PCs are talking to each other rather than shooting each other, and giving social characters a way to make PCs (as opposed to NPCs) do things can lead to ill feelings.

[Reaver]

On the other side of that argument however (as a person who generally plays very social characters) if you limit the ability of social skills to function then they shouldn't cost as much as physical skills.

[...]

Basically my only point is, if your Agility and Guns allow you to blow my head of if it's your inclination whether or not you could do it in real life then my Cha and Con should let me convince you of something even if you know it's a lie at the table.

Three bits here - Obviously in both cases the skill of the player at [Action X] should not determine the skill of the character at [Action X]. I know I can't fire a gun worth a damn while hanging out a VTOL and whistling the latest pop hit, but I've certainly had characters roll that and make it. It's good times, and obvious.

I think we're just going to different levels of player vs. player action at the table. If my PCs start shooting at each other, something has gone terribly wrong in my game (which are generally very collaborative). If you're playing a heavy backstab game, or anything with a lot of PvP, then of course social skills should work as much on PCs as on anyone else.

I just find that, in the games I play generally, PCs are talking to each other rather than shooting each other, and giving social characters a way to make PCs (as opposed to NPCs) do things can lead to ill feelings.

That's more or less an issue for "Player kill/Player vs Player/backstab" games (PK, PVP, "evil" games) and should be addressed even before the characters are made. Many tables do not allow PK/PVP games due to the hard feelings it can create between players. If the table agrees that it's a no-PVP game, then that should (obciously) extend to anything that can influence the character (spells, social tests)

IF the tables agrees that PVP is an option, then all manner of attack should be allowed (spells, social tests).