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6E alchemy

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Shinobi Killfist

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« on: <08-15-19/1428:15> »
I don’t have the book but on reddit someone broken down the rules I can’t confirm it since I don’t have the book.

But hours to make. Hours equal to the modified by type of trigger in force. So fireball is I think 5 drain+1 for type of trigger 6 hours to make. I assume that’s a typo and they meant minutes. The rest is assuming it’s accurate.

Test is your alchemy pool be force. Net hits determines potency. Potencyx2 is its duration in hours. Potency+magic is the dice pool for using it

Okay that’s not a good system. I thought people figured in out in 5e when pretty much no one used it outside of 12 force gimmicks during downtime.

So normally you need on average 3 dice for a hit even before it is opposed with this system you need 9 dice outside your magic rating to get a hit. So the difference between a 1 skill alchemist and a 10 skill alchemist is negligible when determine the triggered spells effect. That is not good math for the system.

Again assume minutes is what they meant. Keep an opposed test for potency. Make its duration potencyx3 hours at least. Your triggered spells dice pool should be your alchemy skill -x dice determined By trigger type. That’s it. It’s easiet, it’s more balanced it actually makes alchemy playable.

FastJack

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« Reply #1 on: <08-15-19/1537:05> »
It's hours for Alchemy, days for Artificing. Alchemy is based on the Drain value (before anything that modifies the drain, so if you bring the drain down from 5 to 4, it's still 5 hours/days).

The test is Enchanting + Magic opposed by the Drain value, net hits become Potency. The preparation is at full power for Potency×2 hours, and Potency decreases by 1 every Potency×2 hours. So 4 potency prep is good for four hours, in the second four hours it's 3 potency, the third four it's 2 potency, the fourth four it's 1 potency, then it fizzles as the clock strikes 16th hour. (See response later.)

Using the preparation is a Potency + Magic (of the alchemist's attribute) test with no Drain. So Potency replaces the Sorcery skill of the spellcaster.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #2 on: <08-15-19/1546:14> »
I think the decay is 8 then 6 then 4 then 2, based on current potency? Laptop dead so can't access my notes.
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FastJack

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« Reply #3 on: <08-15-19/1558:36> »
I think the decay is 8 then 6 then 4 then 2, based on current potency? Laptop dead so can't access my notes.
Nope, only going down 1 each interval.

Quote from: CRB, p. 150
The spell, trigger, and Potency of the preparation should all be noted, along with any spell effects added. The preparation maintains its full power for [Potency x 2] hours; after that, power starts to decrease. With each [current Potency x 2] hour interval after that, the Potency of the preparation decreases by 1. When it reaches 0, the preparation fizzles, and the magic inside is lost.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #4 on: <08-15-19/1603:16> »
Yes so if you start at 4 potency the intervals are 8, 6, 4, 2, so fizzles after 20 hours?
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FastJack

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« Reply #5 on: <08-15-19/1634:27> »
You're right. If you start at 4 Potency, it's 4 for hours 1-8, 3 for hours 8-14, 2 for hours 14-18, 1 for hours 18-20, then fizzles at 20th hour. Ignore what I said before, I forgot to math the hours (I've been tutoring my neighbor for his senior year math requirements and my brain's getting fried).

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #6 on: <08-15-19/1649:00> »
Careful with that dumpshock, old man.
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Finstersang

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« Reply #7 on: <08-15-19/1703:27> »
So its true: The only branch of Magic that got nerfed compared to 5th Edition is Alchemy.

Unbelievable. How can anyone look at Alchemy and be like „yeah this is fine, but I really think that making a Preparation should take hours instead of Minutes.“

And then insist on removing Binding and keeping the flat Damage reduction for Spirits. Did anyone behind 6th Editions Magic section have a serious look at the previous Editions? Did anyone even give  a damn?

Or am I missing something? Is there at least a meanigfull way to use Reagents now? Or is Alchemy really just as shit as before, but with longer prep time?
« Last Edit: <08-15-19/1706:43> by Finstersang »

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #8 on: <08-15-19/1725:13> »
So alchemy doesn’t work as written. Hours to make. Is terrible. The dice pool to use it is terrible.

The fog from my sleep medication is lifting so I’ll try to explain it again. This time hopefully coherently.

It takes roughly 3 dice for a hit. That hit gives me a die. So I need on average 3 hits to get a end result hit on the casting or use the preparation test. 3x3 is 9 dice. You need 9 freaking dice from your skill/focuses/bonuses to get 1 end result die on average when cast.

Let’s go with a 6 magic+6skill. I roll12 dice vs 5 and get 2 net hits. I’m rolling 8 dice when I cast this spell down 4 dice from my skill pool.


 Now let’s say I bumped my skill to 8 and have a force 4 focus but still have a 6 magic because magic is expensive to raise. I get 4 net hits and roll 10 dice.  Effectively losing 8 dice now from my skill pool. 

So I invested a shit ton into my skill and in a solid focus and only about 1/2 the time does it net me a hit when I cast the preparation. And it feels like I got progressively worse and will be effectively worse against the likely tougher opposition I am now facing with a die pool that is worse than a starting mages die pool.

The math for this was known to be bad in 5e. Why would they just do it the same but this time with a unusable creation time. And what a pain in the ass tracking potency sounds like.

Potency should not be involved in your die pool at all. Your die pool when making it or using it should be your alchemy+magic test. Have the dice pool modifier be the trigger type.

There is no reason to invest a skill point into this for alchemy. Maybe enchanting if you really want to make your own focused for flavor reasons. But alchemy just is non functional like this.

markelphoenix

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« Reply #9 on: <08-15-19/1902:25> »
So alchemy doesn’t work as written. Hours to make. Is terrible. The dice pool to use it is terrible.

The fog from my sleep medication is lifting so I’ll try to explain it again. This time hopefully coherently.

It takes roughly 3 dice for a hit. That hit gives me a die. So I need on average 3 hits to get a end result hit on the casting or use the preparation test. 3x3 is 9 dice. You need 9 freaking dice from your skill/focuses/bonuses to get 1 end result die on average when cast.

Let’s go with a 6 magic+6skill. I roll12 dice vs 5 and get 2 net hits. I’m rolling 8 dice when I cast this spell down 4 dice from my skill pool.


 Now let’s say I bumped my skill to 8 and have a force 4 focus but still have a 6 magic because magic is expensive to raise. I get 4 net hits and roll 10 dice.  Effectively losing 8 dice now from my skill pool. 

So I invested a shit ton into my skill and in a solid focus and only about 1/2 the time does it net me a hit when I cast the preparation. And it feels like I got progressively worse and will be effectively worse against the likely tougher opposition I am now facing with a die pool that is worse than a starting mages die pool.

The math for this was known to be bad in 5e. Why would they just do it the same but this time with a unusable creation time. And what a pain in the ass tracking potency sounds like.

Potency should not be involved in your die pool at all. Your die pool when making it or using it should be your alchemy+magic test. Have the dice pool modifier be the trigger type.

There is no reason to invest a skill point into this for alchemy. Maybe enchanting if you really want to make your own focused for flavor reasons. But alchemy just is non functional like this.

Sooo, anyone who has played 6e have a good use for alchemy?

Finstersang

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« Reply #10 on: <08-15-19/1935:21> »
Potency should not be involved in your die pool at all. Your die pool when making it or using it should be your alchemy+magic test. Have the dice pool modifier be the trigger type.

There is no reason to invest a skill point into this for alchemy. Maybe enchanting if you really want to make your own focused for flavor reasons. But alchemy just is non functional like this.

It should have been either that or something that uses Reagents in a meaningfull way to give Alchemy an advantage over regular Spellcasting. But once again it seems like whoever wrote the Magic section really couldn´t give any shit at all.

Seriously, the 3 most common Magic-related complaints about SR5 were
  • Spirits being way too strong in general
  • Burnout (Mys)adepts being too strong because of Burnout cheese
  • Alchemy being too weak.

And what happens in 6th Edition? Summoners can now control multiple Spirits without Preparation or material cost involved, Immunity to normal weapons gets even more broken compared to the lowered Damage Codes, Burnout Adepts get even cheesier because someone forgot to add a line that they lose Power Points when losing Magic (It´s likely not intended - but hey, better not put an errata on this, because someone might have already advanced a character based on this assumption ::)), BUT of all the different branches of magic in SR, Alchemy gets a nerf in the form of longer prep time.

Brilliant.
« Last Edit: <08-15-19/1936:57> by Finstersang »

FastJack

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« Reply #11 on: <08-15-19/1956:58> »
It's my opinion that Alchemy SHOULD take that long to prep. With all the complaints about how 6E isn't realistic enough, the fact that we also have people wanting to make a wand of fireballs in six minutes while they're sneaking through a facility is mind-boggling.

I guess I'm just getting old and remembering back in 1st/2nd/3rd/4th edition when Alchemy was used to make reagents for foci and that was it. Damn kids today and their potions and wands! Get off my lawn!

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #12 on: <08-15-19/2022:29> »
Hours to prep a wand that disappears in hours. So you take 6 in a skill and learn spells specifically for preparations so you can throw one spell a day. That’s not a get off my lawn issue that’s just not looking at the math. If they were permanent and you prepped them over the week hours might work. But it would wreck touch spells made on location.

Finstersang

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« Reply #13 on: <08-15-19/2108:30> »
It's my opinion that Alchemy SHOULD take that long to prep. With all the complaints about how 6E isn't realistic enough, the fact that we also have people wanting to make a wand of fireballs in six minutes while they're sneaking through a facility is mind-boggling.

I guess I'm just getting old and remembering back in 1st/2nd/3rd/4th edition when Alchemy was used to make reagents for foci and that was it. Damn kids today and their potions and wands! Get off my lawn!

You know what? It would actually be fine that Alchemy takes so much prep time IF the result was worthwhile in comparison to a regular spell.

But it isn‘t. Not even remotely. You spend multiple hours to prep a spell that is then cast with a significantly lower dice pool.

And I just take a wild guess here: Reagents still have next  no value when making Preparations, replication the same flavour-fail from 5th Edition?
« Last Edit: <08-15-19/2111:40> by Finstersang »

FastJack

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« Reply #14 on: <08-15-19/2249:59> »
Up to 2 drams of Reagents lessens the Drain by each dram used.

I guess my question is, are you the enchanter making a wand for yourself when you could just cast the spell? Or are you a decker, buying a wand from that Enchanter for a run later tonight to surprise the hell out of the sec guards in the building?