Shadowrun

Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-15-19/1428:15>

Title: 6E alchemy
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-15-19/1428:15>
I don’t have the book but on reddit someone broken down the rules I can’t confirm it since I don’t have the book.

But hours to make. Hours equal to the modified by type of trigger in force. So fireball is I think 5 drain+1 for type of trigger 6 hours to make. I assume that’s a typo and they meant minutes. The rest is assuming it’s accurate.

Test is your alchemy pool be force. Net hits determines potency. Potencyx2 is its duration in hours. Potency+magic is the dice pool for using it

Okay that’s not a good system. I thought people figured in out in 5e when pretty much no one used it outside of 12 force gimmicks during downtime.

So normally you need on average 3 dice for a hit even before it is opposed with this system you need 9 dice outside your magic rating to get a hit. So the difference between a 1 skill alchemist and a 10 skill alchemist is negligible when determine the triggered spells effect. That is not good math for the system.

Again assume minutes is what they meant. Keep an opposed test for potency. Make its duration potencyx3 hours at least. Your triggered spells dice pool should be your alchemy skill -x dice determined By trigger type. That’s it. It’s easiet, it’s more balanced it actually makes alchemy playable.
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: FastJack on <08-15-19/1537:05>
It's hours for Alchemy, days for Artificing. Alchemy is based on the Drain value (before anything that modifies the drain, so if you bring the drain down from 5 to 4, it's still 5 hours/days).

The test is Enchanting + Magic opposed by the Drain value, net hits become Potency. The preparation is at full power for Potency×2 hours, and Potency decreases by 1 every Potency×2 hours. So 4 potency prep is good for four hours, in the second four hours it's 3 potency, the third four it's 2 potency, the fourth four it's 1 potency, then it fizzles as the clock strikes 16th hour. (See response later.)

Using the preparation is a Potency + Magic (of the alchemist's attribute) test with no Drain. So Potency replaces the Sorcery skill of the spellcaster.
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-15-19/1546:14>
I think the decay is 8 then 6 then 4 then 2, based on current potency? Laptop dead so can't access my notes.
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: FastJack on <08-15-19/1558:36>
I think the decay is 8 then 6 then 4 then 2, based on current potency? Laptop dead so can't access my notes.
Nope, only going down 1 each interval.

Quote from: CRB, p. 150
The spell, trigger, and Potency of the preparation should all be noted, along with any spell effects added. The preparation maintains its full power for [Potency x 2] hours; after that, power starts to decrease. With each [current Potency x 2] hour interval after that, the Potency of the preparation decreases by 1. When it reaches 0, the preparation fizzles, and the magic inside is lost.
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-15-19/1603:16>
Yes so if you start at 4 potency the intervals are 8, 6, 4, 2, so fizzles after 20 hours?
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: FastJack on <08-15-19/1634:27>
You're right. If you start at 4 Potency, it's 4 for hours 1-8, 3 for hours 8-14, 2 for hours 14-18, 1 for hours 18-20, then fizzles at 20th hour. Ignore what I said before, I forgot to math the hours (I've been tutoring my neighbor for his senior year math requirements and my brain's getting fried).
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-15-19/1649:00>
Careful with that dumpshock, old man.
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: Finstersang on <08-15-19/1703:27>
So its true: The only branch of Magic that got nerfed compared to 5th Edition is Alchemy.

Unbelievable. How can anyone look at Alchemy and be like „yeah this is fine, but I really think that making a Preparation should take hours instead of Minutes.“

And then insist on removing Binding and keeping the flat Damage reduction for Spirits. Did anyone behind 6th Editions Magic section have a serious look at the previous Editions? Did anyone even give  a damn?

Or am I missing something? Is there at least a meanigfull way to use Reagents now? Or is Alchemy really just as shit as before, but with longer prep time?
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-15-19/1725:13>
So alchemy doesn’t work as written. Hours to make. Is terrible. The dice pool to use it is terrible.

The fog from my sleep medication is lifting so I’ll try to explain it again. This time hopefully coherently.

It takes roughly 3 dice for a hit. That hit gives me a die. So I need on average 3 hits to get a end result hit on the casting or use the preparation test. 3x3 is 9 dice. You need 9 freaking dice from your skill/focuses/bonuses to get 1 end result die on average when cast.

Let’s go with a 6 magic+6skill. I roll12 dice vs 5 and get 2 net hits. I’m rolling 8 dice when I cast this spell down 4 dice from my skill pool.


 Now let’s say I bumped my skill to 8 and have a force 4 focus but still have a 6 magic because magic is expensive to raise. I get 4 net hits and roll 10 dice.  Effectively losing 8 dice now from my skill pool. 

So I invested a shit ton into my skill and in a solid focus and only about 1/2 the time does it net me a hit when I cast the preparation. And it feels like I got progressively worse and will be effectively worse against the likely tougher opposition I am now facing with a die pool that is worse than a starting mages die pool.

The math for this was known to be bad in 5e. Why would they just do it the same but this time with a unusable creation time. And what a pain in the ass tracking potency sounds like.

Potency should not be involved in your die pool at all. Your die pool when making it or using it should be your alchemy+magic test. Have the dice pool modifier be the trigger type.

There is no reason to invest a skill point into this for alchemy. Maybe enchanting if you really want to make your own focused for flavor reasons. But alchemy just is non functional like this.
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: markelphoenix on <08-15-19/1902:25>
So alchemy doesn’t work as written. Hours to make. Is terrible. The dice pool to use it is terrible.

The fog from my sleep medication is lifting so I’ll try to explain it again. This time hopefully coherently.

It takes roughly 3 dice for a hit. That hit gives me a die. So I need on average 3 hits to get a end result hit on the casting or use the preparation test. 3x3 is 9 dice. You need 9 freaking dice from your skill/focuses/bonuses to get 1 end result die on average when cast.

Let’s go with a 6 magic+6skill. I roll12 dice vs 5 and get 2 net hits. I’m rolling 8 dice when I cast this spell down 4 dice from my skill pool.


 Now let’s say I bumped my skill to 8 and have a force 4 focus but still have a 6 magic because magic is expensive to raise. I get 4 net hits and roll 10 dice.  Effectively losing 8 dice now from my skill pool. 

So I invested a shit ton into my skill and in a solid focus and only about 1/2 the time does it net me a hit when I cast the preparation. And it feels like I got progressively worse and will be effectively worse against the likely tougher opposition I am now facing with a die pool that is worse than a starting mages die pool.

The math for this was known to be bad in 5e. Why would they just do it the same but this time with a unusable creation time. And what a pain in the ass tracking potency sounds like.

Potency should not be involved in your die pool at all. Your die pool when making it or using it should be your alchemy+magic test. Have the dice pool modifier be the trigger type.

There is no reason to invest a skill point into this for alchemy. Maybe enchanting if you really want to make your own focused for flavor reasons. But alchemy just is non functional like this.

Sooo, anyone who has played 6e have a good use for alchemy?
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: Finstersang on <08-15-19/1935:21>
Potency should not be involved in your die pool at all. Your die pool when making it or using it should be your alchemy+magic test. Have the dice pool modifier be the trigger type.

There is no reason to invest a skill point into this for alchemy. Maybe enchanting if you really want to make your own focused for flavor reasons. But alchemy just is non functional like this.

It should have been either that or something that uses Reagents in a meaningfull way to give Alchemy an advantage over regular Spellcasting. But once again it seems like whoever wrote the Magic section really couldn´t give any shit at all.

Seriously, the 3 most common Magic-related complaints about SR5 were
And what happens in 6th Edition? Summoners can now control multiple Spirits without Preparation or material cost involved, Immunity to normal weapons gets even more broken compared to the lowered Damage Codes, Burnout Adepts get even cheesier because someone forgot to add a line that they lose Power Points when losing Magic (It´s likely not intended - but hey, better not put an errata on this, because someone might have already advanced a character based on this assumption ::)), BUT of all the different branches of magic in SR, Alchemy gets a nerf in the form of longer prep time.

Brilliant.
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: FastJack on <08-15-19/1956:58>
It's my opinion that Alchemy SHOULD take that long to prep. With all the complaints about how 6E isn't realistic enough, the fact that we also have people wanting to make a wand of fireballs in six minutes while they're sneaking through a facility is mind-boggling.

I guess I'm just getting old and remembering back in 1st/2nd/3rd/4th edition when Alchemy was used to make reagents for foci and that was it. Damn kids today and their potions and wands! Get off my lawn!
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-15-19/2022:29>
Hours to prep a wand that disappears in hours. So you take 6 in a skill and learn spells specifically for preparations so you can throw one spell a day. That’s not a get off my lawn issue that’s just not looking at the math. If they were permanent and you prepped them over the week hours might work. But it would wreck touch spells made on location.
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: Finstersang on <08-15-19/2108:30>
It's my opinion that Alchemy SHOULD take that long to prep. With all the complaints about how 6E isn't realistic enough, the fact that we also have people wanting to make a wand of fireballs in six minutes while they're sneaking through a facility is mind-boggling.

I guess I'm just getting old and remembering back in 1st/2nd/3rd/4th edition when Alchemy was used to make reagents for foci and that was it. Damn kids today and their potions and wands! Get off my lawn!

You know what? It would actually be fine that Alchemy takes so much prep time IF the result was worthwhile in comparison to a regular spell.

But it isn‘t. Not even remotely. You spend multiple hours to prep a spell that is then cast with a significantly lower dice pool.

And I just take a wild guess here: Reagents still have next  no value when making Preparations, replication the same flavour-fail from 5th Edition?
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: FastJack on <08-15-19/2249:59>
Up to 2 drams of Reagents lessens the Drain by each dram used.

I guess my question is, are you the enchanter making a wand for yourself when you could just cast the spell? Or are you a decker, buying a wand from that Enchanter for a run later tonight to surprise the hell out of the sec guards in the building?
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: Michael Chandra on <08-16-19/0233:44>
Enchanting is tricky to balance out, because it can easily become OP if not strictly restrained. With the Vault of Ages from an SR5 extended book, mere minutes to make a preparation made them become way too powerful. I don't know exactly how to balance these things out (plus I want to know how long a preparation sustains itself when activated), but I do think Alchemy can be extremely risky. If it's too easy, you'd get an alchemist making buff items for the entire squad, for spells where every single hit helps. Heck, my entire Firewatch design is built around the Vault of Ages and Alchemical Preparations.

Incidentally, don't think active spellcaster for preparations. Think buffspells and tricks like a Timed Thunder Preparation.
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: Finstersang on <08-16-19/0436:20>
Up to 2 drams of Reagents lessens the Drain by each dram used.

I guess my question is, are you the enchanter making a wand for yourself when you could just cast the spell? Or are you a decker, buying a wand from that Enchanter for a run later tonight to surprise the hell out of the sec guards in the building?

Well, that‘s at least something, given the fact that the Drain value plays a big role in the whole process. In 5th Edition, you could only Modify the limit with reagents, which is of literally no use at all 99% of the time.

The ability to give spells to mundanes is a valid point, but it highly depends on the types of triggers available - or in other words, the hoops you have to jump through to make the preparation go off when needed and not go off by accident. Is there a way to make actual Potions now without waiting for a far away supplement and investing additional Karma for additional Perks?)
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: FastJack on <08-16-19/0758:58>
Up to 2 drams of Reagents lessens the Drain by each dram used.

I guess my question is, are you the enchanter making a wand for yourself when you could just cast the spell? Or are you a decker, buying a wand from that Enchanter for a run later tonight to surprise the hell out of the sec guards in the building?

Well, that‘s at least something, given the fact that the Drain value plays a big role in the whole process. In 5th Edition, you could only Modify the limit with reagents, which is of literally no use at all 99% of the time.

The ability to give spells to mundanes is a valid point, but it highly depends on the types of triggers available - or in other words, the hoops you have to jump through to make the preparation go off when needed and not go off by accident. Is there a way to make actual Potions now without waiting for a far away supplement and investing additional Karma for additional Perks?)
Not in the Core Rulebook. Maybe a Magic book?
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: penllawen on <08-16-19/0826:05>
The more I think about this, the more I think alchemy is really tricky to balance. It fundamentally allows a mage to get the upside of magic (whatever spell effect is being used) but skip the main downside (by taking Drain during downtime, when it can easily be recovered from.)

Mechanically, we see attempts to address this from a few angles: reagent cost, enchanted items quickly decaying, and now really long enchanting times. But they all feel a bit inelegant, at least to me. I wish I could think of a better way. Maybe enchanting is just best kept mostly out of PCs hands and used as a plot element for NPCs? That's basically what most tables did for 5e, I suspect, based on the fact that it was a skill with poor ROI.

I suppose similar issues exist for bound sprits. They were dropped in 6e, right?
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-16-19/1133:58>
Honestly if you were going to nerf something that already was weak you should have just removed it from the game. Minutes preparation never broke, slightly damaged or made alchemy even close to as good as spellcasting. Hours just makes alchemy a waste of the limited 300 page count.

Before the vault of ages which was not needed they kind of worked time wise just not effect wise. There was only so much drain you could take and recover from before you head out limiting the number of preparations you had on the active part of the run. They only lasted hours so you had to plan for that. And you. Plus easily run out and while minutes meant you could reload if you had some downtime it’s not something you could swing in a fight or while plummeting to your doom or any other of the I need it now spots.

 A hard limit on numbers of preparations you could have active would work better imo. Like you can only prepare as many spells as your magic or 1/2 your magic rating or something. It’s easy enough to design a mage where drain is somewhat trivial so it’s not a huge advantage to take drain early.

There are countless thread here and on reddit about how bad alchemy was in 5e and how to gimmick it so while it’s still worse than spellcasting it’s at least somewhat useful. And I doubt there is a single thread where people say alchemy was just too good. And the design decision in 6e was to make it even worse.
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: FastJack on <08-16-19/1422:40>
It's almost as if the Mana cycle isn't high enough to allow for easy-to-make and worthwhile magical preparations...
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-16-19/1437:39>
It's almost as if the Mana cycle isn't high enough to allow for easy-to-make and worthwhile magical preparations...

Then remove it from the game. It’s not worth the skill points as designed.
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: Iron Serpent Prince on <08-16-19/1512:21>
It's almost as if the Mana cycle isn't high enough to allow for easy-to-make and worthwhile magical preparations...

Then remove it from the game. It’s not worth the skill points as designed.

Pretty much this.

I mean, imagine how many required tables wouldn't have been cut from the Core Book had the Alchemy rules been cut instead - especially considering we are being told they aren't really intended for PC use anyway (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29831.msg522098#msg522098).

Just move preparations to the gear section (if they aren't there already) and call it a day.
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: FastJack on <08-16-19/1540:58>
It's almost as if the Mana cycle isn't high enough to allow for easy-to-make and worthwhile magical preparations...

Then remove it from the game. It’s not worth the skill points as designed.
That's a good idea. If it's bothersome and it doesn't work with your game, then you can work with your group to not include it in play.

It's almost as if the Mana cycle isn't high enough to allow for easy-to-make and worthwhile magical preparations...

Then remove it from the game. It’s not worth the skill points as designed.

Pretty much this.

I mean, imagine how many required tables wouldn't have been cut from the Core Book had the Alchemy rules been cut instead - especially considering we are being told they aren't really intended for PC use anyway (https://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=29831.msg522098#msg522098).

Just move preparations to the gear section (if they aren't there already) and call it a day.
I'm going to give you a bit of a warning here ISP. I'm not Catalyst, I don't represent Catalyst unless I'm GMing a game. NO ONE is telling you they aren't intended for PC use, I am stating my opinion on Alchemy in general in the Shadowrun game. I do not like it, and don't use it, but I'm not going to prevent other gamers from including it in their games. If my table wants to use them, I will endorse them and thank CGL for preparing rules to use with them. I'd appreciate if you do not pull my words and spin your own context.
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: Finstersang on <08-16-19/1624:16>
There are countless thread here and on reddit about how bad alchemy was in 5e and how to gimmick it so while it’s still worse than spellcasting it’s at least somewhat useful. And I doubt there is a single thread where people say alchemy was just too good. And the design decision in 6e was to make it even worse.

Hell, the increased prep time would even be somewhat justifiable if Alchemy would not still have the nested dice pools and/or be subjected to a ton of restrictions and caveats.

Are there even any new Triggers besides Command (a.k.a you cast the spell yourself, but weaker), Contact (a.k.a. good luck transporting this/"aren´t Microbes living beings as well?") and Timer? Apparantly, even magic potions was deemed too wild of a concept.   
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-16-19/1807:31>
There are countless thread here and on reddit about how bad alchemy was in 5e and how to gimmick it so while it’s still worse than spellcasting it’s at least somewhat useful. And I doubt there is a single thread where people say alchemy was just too good. And the design decision in 6e was to make it even worse.

Hell, the increased prep time would even be somewhat justifiable if Alchemy would not still have the nested dice pools and/or be subjected to a ton of restrictions and caveats.

Are there even any new Triggers besides Command (a.k.a you cast the spell yourself, but weaker), Contact (a.k.a. good luck transporting this/"aren´t Microbes living beings as well?") and Timer? Apparantly, even magic potions was deemed too wild of a concept.

Even then I don’t think it would be justified. Without serious optimizing of your enchanting die pool with hours of preparation by the time the second one is complete the first has faded. If the vault of ages is core now your limit is however many items it can store.

 And if that’s the case just make that the limit of how many preparations a alchemist can keep active close to what the vault of ages can store and ditch the item. Preferably also make the creation time and triggers functional.

So if the Vault of ages can store 6 items well magic 6 is normal make your magic rating the limit to how many active preps you can keep.

The game math on alchemy in 6e just doesn’t work. I literally thought hours was just a errata typo it’s that bad. If preparations were permanent basically what I was talking about  above  and you had a limit to how many you could store it then might work though it wouldn’t be ideal.

Still wouldn’t like it because I liked the idea of spending a few minutes and trapping a floor or door mid run but at least the core idea of preparing a alchemical item would mathematically function to some degree.

Then just change the dice pool to a static penalty as opposed to this test based system where you progressively lose more dice as you get better. And it might kind of function. Maybe make them resistant to background count so they don’t get double whammied on dice pool hits 1 from
Just being a prep and the other from the background count. Then they’d be generally weaker but have a place to look okay.
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-17-19/1028:07>
Up to 2 drams of Reagents lessens the Drain by each dram used.

I guess my question is, are you the enchanter making a wand for yourself when you could just cast the spell? Or are you a decker, buying a wand from that Enchanter for a run later tonight to surprise the hell out of the sec guards in the building?

As an aside there is a solid chance you can’t cast the spell yourself. That’s a different skill. And your ability to hand them out to your decker is pretty limited by the triggers and their duration.  There are 4 magic skills taking them all up to runner standards would be 24 skill points. And you still probably want athletics for dodge, some stealth, con etc. unless you went A skills odds are you are dropping one magic skill.  If alchemy was functional you could make a choice between casting style sort of like the choice between a melee character or shooter. As is it’s a waste of skill points.

The thing that bothers me about this is it was a known issue. Forbidden arcana added qualities and items as an attempt to patch it up to somewhat effective though still weaker than spellcasting level. And if you were a high enough grade initiate it mostly worked. These weren’t fun qualities,gear or metamagics to add depth to a working system it was effectively done as errata to patch something that wasn’t working.

The vault of ages I think was a bad setting add. For the players it kind of worked though honestly I didn’t think it was needed once you took one of the qualities that extended a preparations duration. But corporations could theoretically have 100 of them at their facility and then send teams out with dozens of preparations. Which sort of works depending on how far the GM pushes it.
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: markelphoenix on <08-17-19/1615:47>
Up to 2 drams of Reagents lessens the Drain by each dram used.

I guess my question is, are you the enchanter making a wand for yourself when you could just cast the spell? Or are you a decker, buying a wand from that Enchanter for a run later tonight to surprise the hell out of the sec guards in the building?

As an aside there is a solid chance you can’t cast the spell yourself. That’s a different skill. And your ability to hand them out to your decker is pretty limited by the triggers and their duration.  There are 4 magic skills taking them all up to runner standards would be 24 skill points. And you still probably want athletics for dodge, some stealth, con etc. unless you went A skills odds are you are dropping one magic skill.  If alchemy was functional you could make a choice between casting style sort of like the choice between a melee character or shooter. As is it’s a waste of skill points.

The thing that bothers me about this is it was a known issue. Forbidden arcana added qualities and items as an attempt to patch it up to somewhat effective though still weaker than spellcasting level. And if you were a high enough grade initiate it mostly worked. These weren’t fun qualities,gear or metamagics to add depth to a working system it was effectively done as errata to patch something that wasn’t working.

The vault of ages I think was a bad setting add. For the players it kind of worked though honestly I didn’t think it was needed once you took one of the qualities that extended a preparations duration. But corporations could theoretically have 100 of them at their facility and then send teams out with dozens of preparations. Which sort of works depending on how far the GM pushes it.

From what I am reading, seems like I would have a Contact that was my source for Alchemical items. Would send him an order, with a desired time for completion (preferably soon before a run), then have them delivered or pick them up before hitting the streets.
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: Finstersang on <08-21-19/0652:46>
Now that I´ve seen more snippets of that hot mess that is Alchemy in 6th Edition:

Command: The individual who made the preparation can trigger it by an act of will [...] A command trigger adds 2 drain to the preparation and is the only trigger health spells can use.

They really just don´t want potions to be a thing, don´t they? Yet whenever there´s an alchemist depicted in the art, they are usually fumbling around with beakers and flasks and such. Whoever did the new Alchemy section really couldn´t be bothered at all to have a look in the forums and do some research on the most common grievances with Alchemy in the previous Edition. Just do the ol´copy and paste, change a bit about the resisted test to determine the potency (no real change here, the preparation just "defends" with drain now, while the expected outcome is still just a shittier version of spell cast in the normal way), increase prep time by a factor of 60 and call it a day. Even the added Reagent use is capped at 2.

"BuT nO oNE iS fORciNg yOu To pLaY An aLcHEmIsT"

Yeah, no shit. But guess what? A lot of players want to. They like the idea of playing a kind of gimmicky "mastermind" Magician that needs more prep time, but is rewarded by interesting tactical options. And this players will rightfully feel mechanically punished for all that prep time and planning once they realize that they spend half a day crafting 2-3 spells that every "real" spellcaster could spam out at will and with a higher dice pool.

This whole section should go right in the bin and get an updated version, at least with the next Magic supplement. Here´s what Alchemy really needs IMO (instead of gloves, fridges and other gimmicky shit) to be interesting and worthwhile:

With all that, even the increased time might have been justified. But right now, that time increase is more like giving the mercy shot to a horse with 4 broken legs.

Side note: I just happen to do some academic research about historical western alchemy. There´s a lot of fancy, pseudo-sciency terminology out there that one could use as keywords for such modications ("Fixation", "Sublimation", "Transmutation", etc. ...)
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: Shinobi Killfist on <08-21-19/1710:02>
What bothers me is for me alchemy was the only good setting add to 5e. I knew the math was terrible but the idea was awesome. Everyone knew how bad the math was and how it didn’t work. This wasn’t some hidden mystery. And hell they had freelancers who tried to fix it in a supplement. And somehow they actually made it worse, fixing none of its problems.

My first run spin of fixes with 0 play testing would be better than this. Though to be fair I’m guessing this section also got 0 play testing.
Title: Re: 6E alchemy
Post by: easl on <08-21-19/2117:46>
Hell, the increased prep time would even be somewhat justifiable if Alchemy would not still have the nested dice pools and/or be subjected to a ton of restrictions and caveats.

That's my opinion too. How hard would it have been to say "Spend [force] hours to produce a preparation that other people can use. They use the mage's dice pool. It has [dram] charges.  You can have [Will] preparations active at once."

Or something like that. The whole idea of successes on one roll becoming dice on the next is a really bad mechanic that - as an earlier poster pointed out - has the effect of dividing ones' effective dice pool by 3.