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3rd Edition Damage staging

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drewbacca

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« on: <01-23-15/0213:19> »
One thing just came up with a character who wanted to use a shotgun. One of the options allows for burst fire. In this case, the damage is 10S and with burst fire the code would be 13D with a +3 recoil modifier. What if the shotgun is loaded with shells which raise the Damage Code to 10D and is fired int burst mode? Is the increase in level lost? Is this even possible?

Thanks.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #1 on: <01-24-15/0120:42> »
The increase in level is lost, but the increase in Power (10 -> 13) remains.  Of course, the only one I know of that does that is flechette, so you're looking at 13D(f), which is great against masses of victims; not so great against armored targets.
Pananagutan & End/Line

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drewbacca

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« Reply #2 on: <01-24-15/0644:25> »
That is what I thought. Thanks.

Tjaeden

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« Reply #3 on: <06-05-15/1407:17> »
We always house rules that any increase in Damage level past Deadly, would just add +2 to the power.  99% of the time the target was going to die anyway, and this let players feel really good about themselves.

Of course, when the GM used it...

JB_1976

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« Reply #4 on: <09-08-15/1237:30> »
At Drewbacca.  I think you got it backward.  The base dameage would be 10S with shells and 10 D  with flechette

If you burst fire the 10 S would become 13D in shells and it would remain the same with flechette

At the Wyrm: 13D(f) is still very much deadly against normally armored targets: you don't get the upgrade from flechette from S to D on the S.A., but you still get the upgrade from S to D from the burst fire, so he still faces deadly damage. Now he either base ballistic armor rating or double impact armor rating whichever is higher.  Unless you are opponents with bonelacing, orthoskin trolls, layering armor or military security armour, the best normal armor is 5/3, meaning your target can lower the TN from 13 to 7 (double impact rating -2*3) instead lowering the TN from 13 to 8 (-5 ballistic).  This not so significant, if you also take into account that his dodge roll changes from A TN 5 (Burst fire) to TN 6 (burst fire + flechette).   

If you put enough recoil compensation on a SPAS that you can fire 2 bursts per initiative pass  without  suffering recoil (and why wouldn't you) this weapon becomes even more killer  ...  If your GM catches on and gives this weapon to the opposition   I hope you have 10 body and rocking 7/6 armour like I do (layering+bone lacing+orthoskin) you can easily stage down and shrug off a shot like that, because you wont dodge that second shot (2nd burst fire + flechette starts at TN7 and you are likely to have suffered already a light so TN 8 to dodge).


The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #5 on: <09-09-15/0204:35> »
Great!  Now go price that setup, and think like a bean-counter - how much is it going to cost to outfit one group of security guards?  Five groups?  Fifty?  Five thousand?

No Shadowrunner worth their salt in 3e is going to be moving without at least the classics - armored jacket and the secure long coat.  No shadowrunner worth their salt is NOT going to be taking hard cover when the opposition is pointing semi-automatic shotguns at them, or (gasp) simply being faster and putting them down earlier.  Or, if you need an example, dodging like nobody's business, because flechette adds to damage - it doesn't spread.  You want shot for that.
Pananagutan & End/Line

Old As McBean, Twice As Mean
"Oh, gee - it's Go-Frag-Yourself-O'Clock."
New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
Play the game. Don't try to win it.

JB_1976

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« Reply #6 on: <09-10-15/1114:34> »
Your spas comes equipped with smartlink2 and folding stock (recoil 1) for the bargain of a 1000 nuyen, it has Street index of 2 but security corps are making legal purchases so 1000 nuyen it is, that gas vent 4 is another 1000,underbarrel weight is 50 nuyen.  A level 3 armsdealer contact for a security company would install this mods for 1200 nuyen.  That would be 3250 nuyen for this weapon is a security company would buy it, I imagine prices would go down if purchased in large quantities...  If a runner would buy it's depends on the contacts he has but anyware between 6000 and 15000.  Expensive but not "out there".  Its a good tool for those runs when going loud is necessary and allowed :)

If you layer an armor jacket (5/3) and a secure long coat (4/2) the following happens
You have quickness of 9 or higher: nothing
You have a quickness of 8: all quickness related tests including dodging and shooting are at +1TN
You have a quickness of 7: all quickness related tests including dodging are at +2TN, - 1combat pool, -2 movement
You have a quickness of 6: all quickness related tests including dodging are at +3TN, - 1combat pool, -3 movement
You have a quickness of 5: all quickness related tests including dodging are at +4TN, - 2combat pool  -4 movement
no runner worth his salt has a quickness lower than 5

It takes a quickness of minimum 9 to rock that clothing combined and not be hindered by it, if that's your definition of a runner worth his salt your table has only prime runner street sams and adepts no other character type would have those stats.

 Mind you if a runner would be wearing this his damage resistance against slugswould be 13-7 =6 and against flechette 12-8=4  (I made a mistake in the previous post) if you adjust the shotspread judiciously (free action because the weapon is smartlinked)
 
Shot= flechette: Page 117 core rule book:  The shotguns described in the Street Gear section (beginning
on p. 277) fire slug rounds. Characters can load them with shot rounds, but shot rounds have little effect against Twentyfirst-
century body armor . To determine the damage done by shot rounds, apply the flechette ammunition rules to the
Damage Code indicated for the weapon. 

Of course you should use cover that's sound advice against any weapon not just a spass with flechette and shoot first always helps as well , however when its pointed at you better make a of a dodge roll like its nobodys business because base TN for the first shot starts at TN6 the second at  TN7 and if you are a decker with quickness of 5 wearing an armor jacket and a secure long coat you lost 2 combat pool and the TN to dodge starts at TN 10 for the first burst, the second burst at TN11 (if you somehow didn't take damage from the first base deadly that is). 
You see imho it doesn't make any difference if his damage resistance is 4 instead of 6 you don't have 8+ body dice and combat pool  to stage down base deadly dame coming to you twice
 
TLDR:   flechette + burst fire makes dodge an exercise in futility and only street sams and adepts with both equally high body and quickness can armor up themselves that there is a downside to flechette on high powered shotguns
 
Tip: a rapid transit line heavy jumpsuit (2/4) layers a lot better with a jacket armor to avoid those penalties and it makes your impact armor rating go up spectacularly to face psychos with shotguns that fire flechette... You will still need high body to stage down  a base deadly to nothing at TN 2 or 3 twice in a IN but now you have a fighting chance because dodging wont work...



JB_1976

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« Reply #7 on: <09-10-15/1457:11> »
At the Wyrm and at Drewbacca:  in short

The spass shoots either 10 S with slugs in SA or 13D in burst fire
The spass shoots either 10 D with flechette in SA or 13D in burst fire


Any shotgun (base S) is leveled to D with Burstfire
Any shotgun that is Base S is leveled to D with Flechette  but any dermal armor negates this upgrade and flechette basically sucks against barriers and vehicle armor)

Does that make flechette an auto choice for a shotgun? Hell no.  But apart from what the flavour would let you believe flechette is not so bad against armored person that you would think if you do the math because shotguns are so high powered from the start, combine this with burst fire capable shotguns and well....  Its strictly worse against high armored people (security armor) vehicles and barriers , its worse against relatively high armored people (those that take the effort and know how to combine armor and have high body) but not as much as the flavour would let you believe and its it takes a dedicated street sam to survive two flechette burst fire attacks unscathed) and to opponents that just rock 5/3 armors its better (again the book wouldnt let you believe that) and to masses that sport anything less including critters its strictly much much better.

Where does flechette shine
Against anybody that doesnt believe in layering armor, which depending on your table could mean almost everybody, layering armor is drawing attention to yourself and saying Im intending to go loud now (I expect a gun fight with something bigger than heavy pistols)
against  critters and spirits up to force 4
IMHO a shotgun with flechette can be an excellent weapon for a mage.  Shotgun allows the mage to get to  significantly lower TN without the need for a smartlink because of shotgun spread

 


The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #8 on: <09-11-15/1429:43> »
... uh, okay.  You win?  As you won't look at the entire picture, it's really tough to have a discussion with you.  Sorry.
Pananagutan & End/Line

Old As McBean, Twice As Mean
"Oh, gee - it's Go-Frag-Yourself-O'Clock."
New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
Play the game. Don't try to win it.

JB_1976

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« Reply #9 on: <09-12-15/1201:25> »
What is the entire picture I refuse to look at?



The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #10 on: <09-13-15/0036:13> »
Already asked my questions.  Scroll back, read my previous post.  Or don't.
Pananagutan & End/Line

Old As McBean, Twice As Mean
"Oh, gee - it's Go-Frag-Yourself-O'Clock."
New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
Play the game. Don't try to win it.

JB_1976

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« Reply #11 on: <09-13-15/1005:01> »
You are right, I don't see the entire picture.. I don't see any arguments  or questions of yours that I haven't answered or at least tried to address or answer.

I don't need to win any argument.  I am just here to share, learn and teach something about a game that I like and that you seem very passionate about, if the close to 4000 posts you made is any indication.

If any what I wrote or the way I wrote it offended you, sorry for that... Peace out , chummer.