[Mäx]

But everything after 6 is only to get or build with GM approval!

According to people who have it, WAR contains rules for comlinks and software up to rating 10.

[FastJack]

The highest base commlink in War! is the Transys Cybernaut - R/S 9/8; Availability 48F; 65,000¥.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Me likey!

Anything milspec is gonna make me drool, really.

[Bradd]

Maybe I'm missing something, but reading over "The Wireless World" in SR4A, particularly the sections on upgrading and using the hardware skill, "Using Technical Skills to Build or Repair" on page 138 of SR4A, and going through Unwired, I can't find any RAW that supports build-from-scratch commlinks except for the very GM Fiat heavy "Using Technical Skills to Build or Repair" rules.

The SR4A Changes doc lists a Modular Electronics mod for 1,000¥ that eliminates the +2 limit. That upgrades the motherboard, power supply, etc. so that you can put the heavy-duty upgrades in a bare-bones system (e.g., a gutted MetaLink) for about 1,100¥ total. This gear is slated for inclusion in a future printing of Arsenal.

[Casazil]

As a GM I read the stuff and the OLNY parts to a commlink mentioned are the case the response signal system and firewall thats it.

DON'T assume that it needs all the crap we need today as seperate.

Now it's YOUR game you run it as you wish but untill an offical developer says you need more than the things listed for sale in the book I'll continue to build commlinks my way.

[Chaemera]

Maybe I'm missing something, but reading over "The Wireless World" in SR4A, particularly the sections on upgrading and using the hardware skill, "Using Technical Skills to Build or Repair" on page 138 of SR4A, and going through Unwired, I can't find any RAW that supports build-from-scratch commlinks except for the very GM Fiat heavy "Using Technical Skills to Build or Repair" rules.

The SR4A Changes doc lists a Modular Electronics mod for 1,000¥ that eliminates the +2 limit. That upgrades the motherboard, power supply, etc. so that you can put the heavy-duty upgrades in a bare-bones system (e.g., a gutted MetaLink) for about 1,100¥ total. This gear is slated for inclusion in a future printing of Arsenal.

The Modular Electronics mod is a mod for vehicles as presented in the CRD (very first sentence).

I might (it's counter productive to the megas to make building your own commlink cheap or easy) let you buy a "bare-bones" (That's case + MoBo + PS + Buswork) with a pre-defined upgrade limit. Otherwise, you'll either need to harvest parts from an existing commlink, build your barebones system from scratch, or lift a bare-bones system during a run against an electronics manufacturing plant.

Yes and no. Its counterproductive to Corp A to make its system modular if they make the whole system. However, its VERY productive to corp B to make compatible knockoff hardware that works with corp A. This was IBM's thinking once upon a time when they figured they'd license their architecture rather than worry about building every last peripheral themselves. The model worked so well that Apple eventually broke down and switched to the same modular (sort of) setup. Most people still don't scratch build a system because its a bit intimidating until you do it once.

On the other hand, you have iPhone. Its a black box. You can't swap parts. You can't use it for anything Apple doesn't want you to unless you hack it. You can't even write your own programs for it without an Apple desktop and uploading it to Mama Apple for approval and inclusion in their store. Its wildly successful because the technology is a notch ahead of the competition and the marketing is great.

Which one will win out in the portable market in the long run? Hard to say. It really comes down to whether the Shadowrun public wants a communication/entertainment device or a full featured computer. So is each commlink an individual design incompatible with the others or are they all IBM compatibles with different motherboards, hard drives etc?

My thoughts on this? IBM and Apple don't have the capacity to field armies. Also, I dunno how I'd rule on it. Probably on the side of whatever seemed more "fun" at the time. Or that the only "bare-bones" systems available were the ones made to work with the existing commlinks and tier their prices accordingly, but make it cheaper (or otherwise advantageous) to at least consider building in lieu of buying.

Also, yes, (at present, anyways), the technological limits imposed by small size prohibit significant modification of hand-held devices. Not to mention there is a strong pro-proprietary move afoot these days.

[Bradd]

@Chaemera: Oops, I missed the part where it's for vehicles.

@Casazil: Could you please cite the rule that allows you to build commlinks from scratch? It's not on SR4A p. 222, because that only has rules for upgrading devices. And you can't "upgrade" a case into a commlink. (And where are you getting the case prices from anyway? If you're basing it on the Meta Link, then you should be subject to the limitations of upgrading a Meta Link.)

By the way, I mentioned the other computer parts only for the sake of illustration, to point out that a lot more goes into electronics than just a processor and a case.

[Fizzygoo]

I'm gearing up to run a campaign here at the start of January and I'm trying to head off player questions before they ask them (and thank you all for the input as Fizzygoo mutters something about a recent paper about online forums and that argument and debate help to ferment a tribal cohesion ).

I hadn't seen the SR4A, pg. 222 about the +2 limit to upgrades.

I'm trying to figure out the best commlink a character can start with through Character Generation, pre-play (I'm also limiting the players to SR4A as most have never played 4th edition and about half have never played SR any edition). I cringe at the "well, my character spent a year to build an x/x/x/x rating commlink before gameplay" statement but want to provide the opportunity for that as it adds to character background, "this is my lucky deck, I built this deck after my wife left me and when I finished it after a year, it's like a chick magnet, the women see my AR persona and can't help but send me a link to hook up."

The stock Commlink models and OSes have no availabilities listed and the highest rated model, the Fairlight Caliban, is a 4/5 and for OS, it's the Novatech Navi with 3/4. The Hardware Upgrade Costs Table (SR4A, pg 222) gives rating 5 (Response and Signal) as availability 12. For the coding of the System/Firewall, SR4A pg. 232 explicitly lists no availability for the program ratings.

So with the Caliban being available at character creation, and the highest hardware upgrades available being 5, looks like Chaemera (quoted below) is correct (and since I'm not using Runner's Companion, I don't have to worry about the Restricted Gear quality).

So my fear now, well, more like mild concern, is when a player says "but I purchased a commlink Facility 'tool' (Availability 12, 100,000¥, SR4A p. 332) and built my Response, Signal, and 'case' (motherboard, buses, etc.) so I can make a x rated commlink." The base reply would be...well, fine, double the prices for hardware upgrades and because the Facility is Availability 12, then the highest/best you can make is rating 5 (upgradeable to 7 later on once game starts). But again, I weep at nothing RAW listed...well, not weep, but rather slightly shrug my viscous shoulders. (Seconding Bradd's comment about nothing listing build-from-scratch...at least that I could find, heh).

As far as the cost of a case, I agree with the idea that the case is the 2070 equivalent of the motherboard, buses, etc. (else why is there a +2 upgrade cap to hardware?) I would adhoc rule that a case costs 1/4 * (stock model cost - the hardware upgrade costs for that model) and I'd average (round up) the stock model's stats for what it's base stats would be.

For example, the Caliban is 4/5, so that averages (round up) to 5. So the cost of a case that can hold rating 5 hardware is 1/4 * (8,000¥ - 3,000¥) = 1/4 * (5,000¥) = 1250¥. To see how the rest of the models work out...

Well, that didn't work out...as all stock models with an average (round up) rating of 3 or less ends up being a negative cost; Sony Emperor 2/3 700¥, avg rating 3, upgrade cost for 2/3 = 900¥ so 1/4 * (700¥ - 900¥) = -50¥. And there's a ~400¥ spread between the lowest and highest avg-rating-4 models.

So then to keep it simple, case costs 20% of the stock model and still use the average (round up) rating of the stock model for it's before-upgrade max rating and the range between highest and lowest just represents the "coolness" factor between different cases.

So, to build from scratch...
* Commlink Facility: 100,000¥
* Case (Caliban based * 20%): 1,600¥
* Response 5 (x2 upgrade cost): 8,000¥
* Signal 5 (x2 upgrade cost): 2,000¥
* "Generic" System rating 5 for 2,500¥
* "Generic" Firewall rating 5 for 2,500¥
Total: 116,600¥
Of course a player could substitute the Facility for a Contact, probably 4-Connection, 3-Loyalty minimum (which would save the character 13 BP as 100K¥ is 20 BP).

...perhaps

I don't think so, for the following reasons:
* The prices listed on page 232 are for buying from scratch.
* Upgrades are limited to +2 for hardware (SR4A, pg. 222), you can't upgrade the Meta Link to 5/5.

Given the scaling of the prices, I'm willing to believe the upgrade prices listed on page 222 are total (ie, going from 3 -> 5 and 4 -> 5 costs the same)

Therefore, might I suggest this instead:
* Novatech Airwave (3/3) for 1250
* Response Upgrade (5) for 4000
* Signal Upgrade (5) for 1000
* "Generic" System rating 5 for 2500
* "Generic" Firewall rating 5 for 2500

Total cost: 11,250 ¥.

[Chaemera]

Me likey!

Anything milspec is gonna make me drool, really.

Speaking as someone who reads mil-specs for a living, I half-wish they'd get the stuff right.

Ten times the cost of civilian, for half the effectiveness, at roughly the same durability.

Before someone talks about how awesome a "mil-spec" weapon is compared to "civilian", weapon systems are not "mil-spec", they are built of mil-spec components to a myriad of horribly convoluted drawings that would make you rip your hair out.

On the other hand, this is a game & is about fun, not reality. Maybe with corporate armies, "mil-spec" finally means something other than needlessly expensive & out-dated.

@Casazil: Could you please cite the rule that allows you to build commlinks from scratch? It's not on SR4A p. 222, because that only has rules for upgrading devices. And you can't "upgrade" a case into a commlink. (And where are you getting the case prices from anyway? If you're basing it on the Meta Link, then you should be subject to the limitations of upgrading a Meta Link.)

I, too, would be interested in seeing the RAW for the empty case you can install commlink modules into to create a home-brew commlink.

I see an armored case that upgrades your existing commlink like modern phone shells, but bullet resistant, in Unwired.
The Hardware skill description of SR4A (pg. 227) explicitly limits Hardware to "build upgrade modules", "install upgrade modules" and "build sim modules").
I can't find anything new on the Arsenal gear tables.
Since I had never heard of the modular electronics upgrade until UV pointed it out, I checked out the CRD, to no avail.

I don't have all of the PDF only documents, so I suppose it might be in one of those.

This is a pet peeve of mine, if someone tells me I'm wrong by RAW, rather than they disagree on interpretation, I want to see where I'm wrong. That way, I know for the future.

*EDIT*
@Fizzygoo, glad the mob here (myself included) could help. Even if we fight & argue & make your brain beg for the sweet release of death.

[Fizzygoo]

@Chaemera: By the dark gods! I'm attempting to crawl out of a near decade long streak of D&D and running back to Shadowrun...you guys (gender neutral "guys") are awesome. I love to argue (where argue is defined as debate ideas, thoughts, opinions, and feelings for the refinement of those ideas, thoughts, opinions, and feelings) and the SR forums I'm finding to be a sea of rationality and respectability, especially when compared to other game-related forums.

As for the RAW about creating a commlink (I so just want to say "deck") from scratch I was assuming I was just missing it because I don't have Unwired yet...but this is seeming to be not the case.

[Chaemera]

@Chaemera: By the dark gods! I'm attempting to crawl out of a near decade long streak of D&D and running back to Shadowrun...you guys (gender neutral "guys") are awesome. I love to argue (where argue is defined as debate ideas, thoughts, opinions, and feelings for the refinement of those ideas, thoughts, opinions, and feelings) and the SR forums I'm finding to be a sea of rationality and respectability, especially when compared to other game-related forums.

I hear ya, I'm currently planning session 6 of my first ever Shadowrun game (regardless of edition). I started coming to this place looking for advice on rule interpretations and house rules / optional rules... and I haven't been able to drag myself back out!

[Nomad Zophiel]

Part of it is managing player expectations. "Elite" hackers don't necessarily have universal 6's. 5's across the board is actually quite badass for someone just starting out. 6's represent the pinnacle of what corporations will be bringing to bear against the party, barring milspec stuff.

[Bradd]

I use the rough guideline that everyday stuff is Rating 3, restricted systems (research, law enforcement) are Rating 4, serious security (military, air travel, elite secret societies) is Rating 5, and financial infrastructure is Rating 6.

[Mäx]

If your allowed to use WAR and Runners companion, the best commlink you can get at chargen is 7/7 costing you 2 restricted gear qualities and 40 500 nuyen
Singularity Battle Buddy Basic 10k nuyen 5/5
Response 7 upgrade 24 k and 20F
Signal 5´7 upgrade 6,5k and 20F

But i can't for the live of me figure out what getting a system and firewall 7 for that would cost.

[Chaemera]

If your allowed to use WAR and Runners companion, the best commlink you can get at chargen is 7/7 costing you 2 restricted gear qualities and 40 500 nuyen
Singularity Battle Buddy Basic 10k nuyen 5/5
Response 7 upgrade 24 k and 20F
Signal 5´7 upgrade 6,5k and 20F

But i can't for the live of me figure out what getting a system and firewall 7 for that would cost.

Again using War!, page 162:
Firewall Rating 7: 24.5k¥ at 28F
System Rating 7: 24.5k¥ at 28F

So to get all four up to 7, can't be done, since Restricted Gear is limited to Availability 20 (straight, R, or F, for anyone who might be confused about the Availability limits applicability to restricted and forbidden gear).

Going back to the Core book for the rating 6 gear (SR4A, pg. 232):
Firewall Rating 6: 3k¥ with infinite availability
System Rating 6: Same

So, our Elite Hacker to the Max™ needs 2 Restricted Gear (10 BP) and 46.5k¥ (10 BP, again) to create. At least he's still got 3.5k¥ from that 10 BP of gear to buy his other basic use programs.