Shadowrun

Catalyst Game Labs => Errata => Topic started by: Poindexter on <07-17-14/1716:42>

Title: ares monosword?
Post by: Poindexter on <07-17-14/1716:42>
i cant seem to find the errata that i assume exists for this weapon.

It seems to be identical to the regular sword, but more expensive and less accurate.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: JimmyCrisis on <07-17-14/1746:27>
I prefer to just scratch out "katana" and write "monosword" next to it in the rulebook.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: Ryo on <07-17-14/1810:42>
Monosword has AP -3 instead of AP -2, so it's actually just a less expensive, less accurate Katana. But Katana and Monosword are both +6 on the concealment table, so just pay the extra 100 nuyen for the +2 accuracy. There's no reason for the monosword to exist with those stats.

Another weird one are the Cougar Fineblades. The short is just a shittier Combat Knife, and the long is a shittier Sword. Short has the same Accuracy, Same Reach, Same Damage, 2 worse AP, worse Avail and 50 nuyen more expensive than the Combat Knife. Long has the same Accuracy, worse Reach, Same Damage, 1 worse AP, worse Avail and 100 nuyen more expensive than the Sword. Again, no reason for these weapons to exist. They're inherently inferior to other options and add nothing to the game.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: JimmyCrisis on <07-17-14/1818:28>
The melee weapons are all messed up.  They need to be redone.  There should be no weapon that is so good it's the only real choice.  And the price differences as a balancing factor is a joke.  Adepts with an E in resources might struggle to own a katana.  Nobody else would notice, if melee was an important part of their character.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: Ryo on <07-17-14/1823:27>
There really needs to be a way to increase the Accuracy of melee weapons, since everyone always slaps a Smartgun on their guns. Might diminish the obvious superiority of the Katana if there was a way to increase the Combat Axe above Accuracy 4.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: reyjinn on <07-17-14/1826:16>
Doesn't personalized grip increase Acc by 1? Granted that can be used on guns as well, afaik.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: Ryo on <07-17-14/1831:51>
Doesn't personalized grip increase Acc by 1? Granted that can be used on guns as well, afaik.

Personalized Grip is in Sail Away, Sweet Sister and didn't even have a price listed. I kind of doubt it's a rules legal upgrade, in all honesty. Not gonna see them in Missions, for example.

Personalized Grip was a given in 4th when it added +1 dice to melee and 1 recoil comp to guns. As an Accuracy booster, when those are so rare, every player would automatically add one to every weapon they buy.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: MijRai on <07-17-14/1834:52>
It does, but it's in Sail Away, Sweet Sister, so folks miss it, not to mention the lack of price...

And it's not like you can just go buy a personalized grip, Ryo.  That's more along the lines of a custom job, which isn't something you can just order.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: Ryo on <07-17-14/1839:15>
It does, but it's in Sail Away, Sweet Sister, so folks miss it, not to mention the lack of price...

And it's not like you can just go buy a personalized grip, Ryo.  That's more along the lines of a custom job, which isn't something you can just order.

No matter what hoops you had to jump through, it'd be worth it, especially for melee weapons that have no other ways of increasing accuracy. Worst case scenario it has an obscene price like double weapon cost, and requires a Logic + Armorer or Intuition + Artisan roll to make. And it'd still be worth getting on every weapon you pick up, especially if you're throwing the type of dice pools that tend to cap out your limits.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: MijRai on <07-17-14/1841:28>
Yes, it's worth it, but it doesn't always mean you are going to drop everything and go get that immediately, or that it's always available. 
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: Ryo on <07-17-14/1843:11>
Yes, it's worth it, but it doesn't always mean you are going to drop everything and go get that immediately, or that it's always available.

If its availability is below 12, it'd be gotten at character creation for every weapon bought there, guaranteed. You'd be stupid not to, just like with smartlinks. If its above 12 for some insane reason, it would be on the list as the first upgrade anyone invests in, and would be sought out as included on any new weapons they purchase in the future.

If they introduce it in a real book, I think they should keep with the spirit of 4th and make it +1 Recoil Comp for guns and +1 Accuracy for melee weapons, since melee weapons have no means of increasing accuracy. Then it's basically just the melee equivalent of a laser sight. Everyone will take one, but everyone already takes smartguns for guns, so its not like that matters much.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: MijRai on <07-17-14/1848:50>
You're making the assumption that everyone tries to optimize their characters.  What if it doesn't make sense that the character would get a personalized grip for any of their weapons?  So yeah, I would suggest you not call people stupid for making their characters in a different fashion than you. 
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: voydangel on <07-17-14/1854:52>
I personally think they just need to completely revamp all the melee weapons from all the 5e books and make them make sense. There are far too many weapons that are functionally useless due to certain other weapons being way too good. Like the katana, for the most obvious example. But it's not just blades.

We also, as noted, need some sort of cheap, ubiquitous way to increase accuracy a little for melee weapons as an "answer" to the smartlink for guns. I think a relatively good candidate is a custom grip that should give +1 accuracy and have avail 10 and cost about 750.

Although if the weapons were designed and balanced properly, it might alleviate the need for the accuracy and change the need for the grip into something more "late game" oriented; in which case it could give a larger bonus (to accuracy and or dice pool) but cost significantly more.

imho.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: JimmyCrisis on <07-17-14/1922:39>
It would be easy enough to houserule all melee weapons using your physical limit.  They probably should, anyway.

While a pistol will have its own inherent accuracy limits, melee is much more about the wielder of the weapon.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: reyjinn on <07-17-14/1943:49>
It would be easy enough to houserule all melee weapons using your physical limit.  They probably should, anyway.

While a pistol will have its own inherent accuracy limits, melee is much more about the wielder of the weapon.

Phys lim ~9 troll/whatever, with a STR+3 DV weapon and enough dice to hit his limit would be very very powerful
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: JimmyCrisis on <07-17-14/1947:21>
It would be easy enough to houserule all melee weapons using your physical limit.  They probably should, anyway.

While a pistol will have its own inherent accuracy limits, melee is much more about the wielder of the weapon.

Phys lim ~9 troll/whatever, with a STR+3 DV weapon and enough dice to hit his limit would be very very powerful

Exactly as powerful as the same troll with titanium bone lacing or bone density bioware.

I'd be a little more concerned by the troll with the claymore, but trolls aren't stellar with their agility.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: MijRai on <07-17-14/1948:52>
Physical Limit is a bit much, in my opinion.  Imagine that troll over there, with 10-11 for his Physical Limit, before Limit enhancers.  Combine that with a Combat Axe.  Not a pretty sight.  Even without optimization, that can get to be a big number very quickly, and big weapons aren't uncommon.  Even with an unaugmented cap of 5 on troll agility...
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: JimmyCrisis on <07-17-14/1952:20>
You're talking about a character who already spent his B on metatype.  Maxing their stats is going to cause deficiencies elsewhere, even if they are God of the Axe.

Also, aren't trolls supposed to be scarry?  I hazard to say that's the point.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: MijRai on <07-17-14/2005:30>
B on Metatype doesn't preclude A on attributes, which is a big thing.  28/2 skill points isn't half bad either.

And there's a difference between scary and over-powered.  A troll using his Physical Limit for melee weapons is treading water close to the far end. 
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: Ryo on <07-17-14/2021:30>
Just straight Physical Limit isn't a good idea, but I do think melee should be based on a modifier of the Physical limit. Straight Physical for average weapons, Physical Limit +1 for weapons that are especially accurate and balanced, and Physical Limit -1 to -3 for heavy and unwieldy weapons, like a Combat Axe.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: MijRai on <07-17-14/2047:01>
Just straight Physical Limit isn't a good idea, but I do think melee should be based on a modifier of the Physical limit. Straight Physical for average weapons, Physical Limit +1 for weapons that are especially accurate and balanced, and Physical Limit -1 to -3 for heavy and unwieldy weapons, like a Combat Axe.

I was actually thinking something along those lines, I just couldn't think of a good modifier table.  Of course, it automatically makes me think of the 2007? 'Shadowrun' video game, when the troll is swinging around that relatively tiny katana one-handed.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: JimmyCrisis on <07-17-14/2048:06>
Just straight Physical Limit isn't a good idea, but I do think melee should be based on a modifier of the Physical limit. Straight Physical for average weapons, Physical Limit +1 for weapons that are especially accurate and balanced, and Physical Limit -1 to -3 for heavy and unwieldy weapons, like a Combat Axe.

Something like that, yeah.
B on Metatype doesn't preclude A on attributes, which is a big thing.  28/2 skill points isn't half bad either.

And there's a difference between scary and over-powered.  A troll using his Physical Limit for melee weapons is treading water close to the far end. 

And that troll has either a D or an E for magic/cyber, so no strength/agility enhancement.

Edit: Also, overpowered?  Being able to kill something isn't overpowered, even if there's no one who can go toe-to-toe with that troll.  There exist plenty of ways to deal with that character, either with heavy ordinance or magic.  He's comparable to a sniper that can't hide and has to be within 3 meters of a target to hit.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: MijRai on <07-17-14/2052:39>
And that troll has either a D or an E for magic/cyber, so no strength/agility enhancement.

Incorrect. 50-70k nuyen will get some good stuff, as would 2 Power Points, or even Aspected towards Spellcasting; Health spell focus on the attribute buffs. 
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: JimmyCrisis on <07-17-14/2057:36>
And that troll has either a D or an E for magic/cyber, so no strength/agility enhancement.

Incorrect. 50-70k nuyen will get some good stuff, as would 2 Power Points, or even Aspected towards Spellcasting; Health spell focus on the attribute buffs. 

So a point or two of agility or strength, but no initiative boosts, and no karma.  Sounds like street drugs or nothing.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: MijRai on <07-17-14/2106:37>
So a point or two of agility or strength, but no initiative boosts, and no karma.  Sounds like street drugs or nothing.

Or, Improved Reflexes 1, Agility Boost 2, plus whatever a mentor might give them (there's a couple useful ones for close combat adepts), and that route leaves 20 Karma for whatever else they want. 

I'm not the one to talk to on 'ware prices, although 70k nuyen should be able to get a troll some useful stuff, and they'd still have 15 Karma left. 

Street drugs are not the only option, in other words. 
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: JimmyCrisis on <07-17-14/2251:25>
Sorry, I meant edge, not karma.

Still, that character build is entirely not a problem.  Let the troll munchkin have his power fantasy,  he's just as susceptible to bullets, assault cannons, magic and mono whips as everyone else.

Considering I have very rarely seen an NPC or PC take an attack with a 11+ DV weapon and live, this guy doesn't do anything that can't be accomplished by another weapon.  He certainly won't be ending fights by himself with his low reaction, and I can't see his melee dice pools starting much higher than 16. 

His biggest asset is that he's too big to ignore, and he certainly isn't limiting out his attacks.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: Leevizer on <07-18-14/0100:31>
It would be easy enough to houserule all melee weapons using your physical limit.  They probably should, anyway.

While a pistol will have its own inherent accuracy limits, melee is much more about the wielder of the weapon.

Phys lim ~9 troll/whatever, with a STR+3 DV weapon and enough dice to hit his limit would be very very powerful

But as they are written now, you need to be an Ork, Dwarf or a Troll Or heavily augmented. As the weapons are nowadays, every character I have seen is using Shock gloves or a Stun Baton since they don't need a massive investment in Strength to be useful. Save for that one melee adept with the combat axe.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: Lucean on <07-18-14/0121:26>
There are far too many weapons that are functionally useless due to certain other weapons being way too good. Like the katana, for the most obvious example. But it's not just blades.
You say the Katana is too good? A twohanded weapon for that you need a Troll to even reach the Monowhip? And don't forget, that the Monowhip can be used in conjunction with a shield or a one-handed firearm for more flexibility.
A STR9 combatant had 8P AP-1 with a Katana in SR4, the Monowhip had +1 Reach and -3AP in comparison.
Now that STR9 guy does 12P AP-3 versus 12P AP-8 with the same base accuracy (due to the weird idea of using smartlink). Granted, now you can get higher dmg, but the needed investment is also growing. And this severe AP of the monowhip is golden against Hardened Armor.
With Fingertip compartment you don't even have concealability issues ... no, the Katana is not obviously too strong.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: Ryo on <07-18-14/0144:18>
There are far too many weapons that are functionally useless due to certain other weapons being way too good. Like the katana, for the most obvious example. But it's not just blades.
You say the Katana is too good? A twohanded weapon for that you need a Troll to even reach the Monowhip? And don't forget, that the Monowhip can be used in conjunction with a shield or a one-handed firearm for more flexibility.
A STR9 combatant had 8P AP-1 with a Katana in SR4, the Monowhip had +1 Reach and -3AP in comparison.
Now that STR9 guy does 12P AP-3 versus 12P AP-8 with the same base accuracy (due to the weird idea of using smartlink). Granted, now you can get higher dmg, but the needed investment is also growing. And this severe AP of the monowhip is golden against Hardened Armor.
With Fingertip compartment you don't even have concealability issues ... no, the Katana is not obviously too strong.

Monowhip doesn't count, as its an exotic weapon that uses a completely different skill. You may as well compare the katana to a sniper rifle. Within the 'Blades' category, The katana is unmatched. The Combat axe is a close rival, but the low accuracy and high price hamstring it.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: Poindexter on <07-18-14/0147:23>
Wow, so im taking these two pages to mean that there ISN'T any errata?
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: JimmyCrisis on <07-18-14/0235:38>
There are far too many weapons that are functionally useless due to certain other weapons being way too good. Like the katana, for the most obvious example. But it's not just blades.
You say the Katana is too good? A twohanded weapon for that you need a Troll to even reach the Monowhip? And don't forget, that the Monowhip can be used in conjunction with a shield or a one-handed firearm for more flexibility.
A STR9 combatant had 8P AP-1 with a Katana in SR4, the Monowhip had +1 Reach and -3AP in comparison.
Now that STR9 guy does 12P AP-3 versus 12P AP-8 with the same base accuracy (due to the weird idea of using smartlink). Granted, now you can get higher dmg, but the needed investment is also growing. And this severe AP of the monowhip is golden against Hardened Armor.
With Fingertip compartment you don't even have concealability issues ... no, the Katana is not obviously too strong.

You are going the wrong way with the idea.  The katana is strong enough but nothing else is on par with it.  I'm all for Japanese samurai action but I also know that a katana bounces off chainmail and steel armors.  It's a 3 foot razor blade, not a lightsaber.  And what's up with the accuracy?  There's nothing inherently quicker or more balanced about a katana than anything else.  I've got a fantastic Irish longsword that's wonderfully balanced and slices quite nicely.  It's got a good point too, it would work well with the "half-sword" technique.  Arguably, it should have better penetration and just as much accuracy.  I'm all for katanas doing more base damage, though.  Like I said, 3 foot razor blades.

So:  Don't nerf the katana.  Make other weapons on par with it.  That is all.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: Leevizer on <07-18-14/0318:52>
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bullshit that's going on in the d20 Shadowrun system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.

Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 Shadowrun system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

(One-Handed Blade Weapon)
STR+5P Damage
-8 AP
8 Accuracy
+2 to Blades skill when using
20,000 Nuyen

(Two-Handed Blade Weapon)
STR+8P Damage
-12 AP
Accuracy 10
+5 to Blades skill when using
30,000 Nuyen

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20 Shadowrun, see my new stat block.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: firebug on <07-18-14/0339:22>
I think you need to chill a bit and watch some episodes of Deadliest Warrior.  XD
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: Medicineman on <07-18-14/0350:56>
Quote
Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?

Way to Cheap.
And what about WiFI Bonus ?
I'd suggest that Drawing it is a free Action and If You have/know the MA Maneuver Iajido Attacking is a Free Action instead of a simple one
So you can Attack twice  ( but only with WiFi on )
You can see that so many times in the Movies that the goons get sliced 3 or more times before they can even draw their guns.
And I've also seen a Guy that sliced a Bullet in Midair.
With A WiFi On I'd suggest a ....+6 Bonus to parry a single Bullet  , only +3 if its a small Burst and +0 if its a Long Burst

with a WiFi Dance
Medicineman
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: Lucean on <07-18-14/0351:27>
And because you wasted spent so much money we should believe you?
The celts used a similar way of forging weapons about 1,000 years before the Japanese used smelting techniques. Romans and Germans also used similarly complex smithing techniques before the Japanese.
The Katana originates in the 15th century. In India and Persia crucible steel production reached their peak during Antique.

Just because modern media flavored romantically idealized images of japanese culture doesn't make the Katana any better. There are no scientological or historical facts about the Katana being better than other swords with similar craftmanship. Maybe you had a good smith, but don't make the price tag on your personal Katana the basis of a discussion, please.

---------------------

I think the Combat Knife was too close to the Katana in stats, a legal weapon with only -1 accuracy, -1DV and -1 reach. That gives almost no room to vary from.
The Claymore from R&G is actually better than the Katana in the right situation, because of the additional -2 AP and -1 defense die.
Swords are better when combined with Two-Weapon-Style Attack, giving them the same Accuracy and trading +1AP for +1DV.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: Ryo on <07-18-14/0400:58>
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bullshit that's going on in the d20 Shadowrun system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.

Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected..

Hahahahaha, oh god.

I don't know if you're a troll or if you actually think any of that is true, but I got a good laugh anyway, thanks.

The actual best sword design in human history was Damascus steel blades. The way to forge them was actually lost to history, so we don't actually know how they made them back then, but looking at them under a microscope shows an edge that actually has constructs on the nano scale, like carbon nanotubes and such. They were stupidly sharp, kept their edge like nothing else and had all kinds of crazy legends about them. And I can't stress this enough, we have no idea how they made them, and can't really replicate it with modern technology either.
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: Leevizer on <07-18-14/0407:48>
None of you happen to go to /tg/, huh? (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Katanas_are_Underpowered_in_d20)
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: Sendaz on <07-18-14/0408:54>
And because you wasted spent so much money we should believe you?
The celts used a similar way of forging weapons about 1,000 years before the Japanese used smelting techniques. Romans and Germans also used similarly complex smithing techniques before the Japanese.
The Katana originates in the 15th century. In India and Persia crucible steel production reached their peak during Antique.

Just because modern media flavored romantically idealized images of japanese culture doesn't make the Katana any better. There are no scientological or historical facts about the Katana being better than other swords with similar craftmanship. Maybe you had a good smith, but don't make the price tag on your personal Katana the basis of a discussion, please.

---------------------

I think the Combat Knife was too close to the Katana in stats, a legal weapon with only -1 accuracy, -1DV and -1 reach. That gives almost no room to vary from.
The Claymore from R&G is actually better than the Katana in the right situation, because of the additional -2 AP and -1 defense die.
Swords are better when combined with Two-Weapon-Style Attack, giving them the same Accuracy and trading +1AP for +1DV.
I think he may just be trying to yank your chain because his Argument for Katana was just lifted from here (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Katanas_are_Underpowered_in_d20), it's been circulating for a while and still funny.

edit: bah.. slipped by Leeviser :P
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: decPL on <07-18-14/0428:48>
To the best of my knowledge katanas are quite far from the uber-swords that the modern western culture makes them. Some various points (not an expert myself, but most of those can be easily verified by the arcane power of browsing the Matrix Internet):

- Katanas were the symbol of samurai status, but for actual combat their preferred weapons of choice were either a longbow or a yari/naginata (and no, I've never seen any mention of the katana being to good to be used in mundane stuff like actually trying to kill your opponent before he kills you).
- The much praised method of folding steel used to produce them wasn't a unique feature of the katana, the same technique was used to create various European swords. In fact it was in used by Vikings 2000+ years before katana was introduced.
- This technique in fact was the only option to get a decent sword in medieval Japan; the country didn't have access to a decent source of iron and what could be smelted was usually quite brittle and made poor swords. Most 'katanas are awesome' vids/posts around the internet are based on katanas which, even if made using medieval techniques, are made from modern quality steel, which is not necessarily comparable to the average original.
- Katanas never evolved, the basic design remained the same for around 7 centuries, despite the advances in metallurgy and the general understanding of the art of killing the other guy. Compare with European swords which constantly evolved, ending up with stuff like the Polish cavalry sabre (I really don't want to get into a discussion on the lines of 'what was the best euro/worldwide sword ever'; the sabre seems to be generally considered a really solid sword, so I went with that).

---

Edit: ninja'd (or samurai'd? :P)
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: firebug on <07-18-14/0438:32>
None of you happen to go to /tg/, huh? (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Katanas_are_Underpowered_in_d20)

I figured it was a joke 'cause I know the general meme but I didn't know it was so specific.  XD
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: Medicineman on <07-18-14/0455:06>
and I knew that Leevizer's post was ....Tongue-in-Cheek because I rememberd that Meme from Dumpschock

HeyaHeyaHeyaJa
Medicineman
Title: Re: ares monosword?
Post by: FastJack on <07-18-14/0758:11>
Question asked, question answered, thread locked.