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Movement house rule

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zekim

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« on: <07-05-14/1534:04> »
I'm not a fan of the movement rules in Shadowrun.    To replace them, I drew some inspiration from D&D/Pathfinder and created/modified the following actions.
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Free Action:
Step - Move 1 meter

Free Action:
Run- Roll Running + Strength [Physical].  Move 2 Meter per Hit (1 meter if Dwarf or Troll). Character counts as running until his next Initiative Pass

Simple Action:
Move - Move up to your walking speed.

Simple Action:
Melee Attack -  Make a Melee attack.

Complex Action:
Full Melee Attack - Make a Melee Attack at +1 dice pool / +1 Accuracy
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Overall, the characters become faster.  However, the movement is more proportional, gives more decision points, fits into the existing action system, and I don't have to keep track how far every figgin' NPC has moved during the current Combat Round.  I also find that they work better than the original rules when using a map.

Melee had to be changed to a Simple action.  The Complex action version is simply an Aim+Melee attack.

Spellcasting is still a Complex action as Reckless spellcasting already exists as a Simple action.

The Sprint Complex action has been removed as it is redundant.   To do a Sprint, a character simply does two Move Simple actions followed by a Run free action.

Ryo

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« Reply #1 on: <07-05-14/1622:40> »
With these rules, characters will overall become slower and have significantly limited options in combat, since they're now using half their actions just to move. First and foremost, you completely eliminated the Run speed, so everyone is already moving half as far as they would be under the normal rules. Secondly, all the other actions in the book are balanced around the idea that you can move at will. You're removing a lot of the tactical positioning from the game by forcing your players to basically stand still and shoot at each other, because they'd be wasting their turns trying to get into new positions.

Namikaze

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« Reply #2 on: <07-05-14/1820:18> »
I've played around with attempting to house rule movement rates in a similar fashion.  It didn't work out.  That's not to say you shouldn't keep trying, but it would require a complete revamp of how actions work, I think.  Each character would have to get action points that they spend during their Initiative Pass, and movement and other actions would work against those action points.  The difficulty is in finding a suitable cost for those action points for each action.  And, of course, figuring out how to calculate the person's action point pool.

If you switched to that kind of system, I think this could work - otherwise, it's generally not going to work out the way you think it is.
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MadBear

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« Reply #3 on: <07-05-14/1825:16> »
I use something very similar, also based of DnD 3.5/Pathfinder, and it's not at all unbalanced, because EVERYONE is playing by the same rules.
To me this way makes much more sense. If a Combat Round is defined as roughly 3 seconds, the average metahuman with AGL 3 could take a double move, that is using two simple actions to walk 6 meters. In three seconds. Or run twice that. But to ALSO be doing that while shooting and reloading OR making a full melee attack is stretching things in my mind. I don't have a problem with highly cybered characters doing more than that, which both systems still allow. This way a character with 3 initiative passes can walk three times their AGL, which is going to be 6 or higher. That's a lot of movement. It's just not free. Moving and taking cover and such SHOULD take up some of your actions. And even with taking a full Complex Action to make a melee attack you can still take a free 1 meter step. It's really quite balanced.
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zekim

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« Reply #4 on: <07-05-14/1828:41> »
With these rules, characters will overall become slower and have significantly limited options in combat, since they're now using half their actions just to move. First and foremost, you completely eliminated the Run speed, so everyone is already moving half as far as they would be under the normal rules.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my initial post, but I eliminated the Run speed as a cap on Combat Round movement.  The only movement rate that I have kept is Walking and that only applies per Simple Action.

For example, a character with a Walking speed of 8m can spend 2 Simple actions to move 16m in a single initiative pass.  If he has 3 initiative passes, he can move up to 48m if he spends all of his actions on moving.

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Secondly, all the other actions in the book are balanced around the idea that you can move at will.

I disagree.  Can you give some examples?

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You're removing a lot of the tactical positioning from the game by forcing your players to basically stand still and shoot at each other, because they'd be wasting their turns trying to get into new positions.

I disagree.  Shooting is usually a Simple action.    Under the original rules, a character with an Agility of 4 and 2 initiative passes can run a total of 16 meters and shoot 2 times.  Under my house rules that same character can move 16 meters and shoot 2 times.   If that same character has 3 initiative passes, they could move an addition 8 meters further than they could in the original rules.



zekim

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« Reply #5 on: <07-05-14/1833:04> »
Each character would have to get action points that they spend during their Initiative Pass, and movement and other actions would work against those action points.

Shadowrun already has an action point system.   Each character gets 2 actions points per initiative pass.  Simple actions cost 1 point, Complex actions cost 2, and Free actions cost 0 (limit 1).

Namikaze

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« Reply #6 on: <07-05-14/1835:01> »
Each character would have to get action points that they spend during their Initiative Pass, and movement and other actions would work against those action points.

Shadowrun already has an action point system.   Each character gets 2 actions points per initiative pass.  Simple actions cost 1 point, Complex actions cost 2, and Free actions cost 0 (limit 1).

Yeah, but movement doesn't count against those action points.
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zekim

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« Reply #7 on: <07-05-14/1855:46> »
Each character would have to get action points that they spend during their Initiative Pass, and movement and other actions would work against those action points.

Shadowrun already has an action point system.   Each character gets 2 actions points per initiative pass.  Simple actions cost 1 point, Complex actions cost 2, and Free actions cost 0 (limit 1).

Yeah, but movement doesn't count against those action points.

So?  My goal is not to create a new system that gives the exact same result as the old system.  As I didn't like how the old system worked or the results that it gave, that would be silly.

Namikaze

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« Reply #8 on: <07-05-14/1916:35> »
Your goal is to do something that breaks the existing system by making movement cost an action.  That makes more sense, sure.
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zekim

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« Reply #9 on: <07-05-14/1926:50> »
Your goal is to do something that breaks the existing system by making movement cost an action.  That makes more sense, sure.

What does it break?

I'm being serious.  I've been running 5th edition since it came out and I can't think of anything that would be negatively impacted by the changes I'm making.

Ryo

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« Reply #10 on: <07-05-14/1927:49> »
With these rules, characters will overall become slower and have significantly limited options in combat, since they're now using half their actions just to move. First and foremost, you completely eliminated the Run speed, so everyone is already moving half as far as they would be under the normal rules.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear in my initial post, but I eliminated the Run speed as a cap on Combat Round movement.  The only movement rate that I have kept is Walking and that only applies per Simple Action.

For example, a character with a Walking speed of 8m can spend 2 Simple actions to move 16m in a single initiative pass.  If he has 3 initiative passes, he can move up to 48m if he spends all of his actions on moving.

So you don't find it at all unreasonable for an average agility 3 human who's high on Jazz to be able to move at 31+ miles per hour? (three initiative passes, two move actions per pass, plus a run action with at least 1 hit. He goes a lot faster with more average hits.)

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Secondly, all the other actions in the book are balanced around the idea that you can move at will.

I disagree.  Can you give some examples?

Imagine I'm an agility 3 average security guard. Here are a few examples of things I would be able to do in a single pass with the normal rules, but your new rules would disallow.

1: Take cover and return fire. (Move to cover, Take Cover simple action, Fire Weapon simple action.)

2: Retreat and reload. (Move away from combat, Remove Clip simple action, Reload Weapon simple action.)

3. Take cover and call for back up. (Move to cover, Take Cover simple action, Send Message simple action.)

4. Spray and pray while running away. (Run free action, moving away, Suppressive Fire complex action.)

5. Throw a grenade away before it kills me. (move to grenade, Pick Up Object simple action, Throw Weapon simple action, spend the rest of my movement getting further from the blast, Drop Prone free action.)

6. Ready a weapon a take cover. (Ready Weapon simple action, move to cover, Take Cover simple action.)

etc, etc.

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You're removing a lot of the tactical positioning from the game by forcing your players to basically stand still and shoot at each other, because they'd be wasting their turns trying to get into new positions.

I disagree.  Shooting is usually a Simple action.    Under the original rules, a character with an Agility of 4 and 2 initiative passes can run a total of 16 meters and shoot 2 times.  Under my house rules that same character can move 16 meters and shoot 2 times.   If that same character has 3 initiative passes, they could move an addition 8 meters further than they could in the original rules.

The end result of these rules will do a few things.

1: Encourage players to prioritize more passes more than the base game already does. Whoever has the most passes wins, because they suddenly have half as many actions.

2: Make combat less interesting, since so much of it is now spent not actually participating. Player has Agility 4, wants to move 16 meters to get behind cover, and fire on the enemy. This is going to take him 3 passes by your rules. He moves 8 meters and readies his weapon and his turn is over. Then he moves 8 more meters and takes cover and his turn is over. He only starts shooting by his third turn. By the normal rules, He'd run over, take cover, and ready his weapon by the end of the first pass. And if he wants to quick draw, he can return fire immediately.

3: Reduce options in positioning. You may not realize it, but you are discouraging your players from ever moving less than their full movement rate, because it now makes them feel like they're wasting actions. Let's say the Agility 4 player wants to take cover behind a wall that's 12 meters away. One simple action only gets him 8 meters, and now he has to decide whether he wants to use his second simple and waste 4 meters worth of movement, and then be unable to take cover when he gets there anyway because he's out of actions, or if he's going to take a chance rolling Run and trying to get 2 hits. If he fucks up, he doesn't even get to the wall at all. You've now given your player an annoying choice that wouldn't even be an issue in the normal game, as he'd run the distance, take cover, and still have a spare action to do something else.

zekim

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« Reply #11 on: <07-05-14/2103:51> »
So you don't find it at all unreasonable for an average agility 3 human who's high on Jazz to be able to move at 31+ miles per hour? (three initiative passes, two move actions per pass, plus a run action with at least 1 hit. He goes a lot faster with more average hits.)

 It is no more unreasonable than a player of mine being able to move 56m and wack someone with a sword before anyone else can react.  (Phys Apt with 7 Agility.  Turn one, last Initiative Pass,  he breaks cover and runs 28m; Turn 2 he wins initiative and runs 28 more meters and does a melee attack Complex action that gains the Charge bonus as he ran into combat)

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Secondly, all the other actions in the book are balanced around the idea that you can move at will.

I disagree.  Can you give some examples?

Imagine I'm an agility 3 average security guard. Here are a few examples of things I would be able to do in a single pass with the normal rules, but your new rules would disallow.

Sorry, but that list isn't proof.  It is a series of activities and not actions.  A better example would have been Charge, which is why I changed Melee attack to a Simple Action.

I have no problem with the activities that you list taking longer because movement has a cost.    I also include two Free Action movement options, so depending on how far the guard needs to move, he can still do many of the activities you list.

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1: Encourage players to prioritize more passes more than the base game already does. Whoever has the most passes wins, because they suddenly have half as many actions.

I disagree.  The game already rewards multiple passes very heavily.   After the first Combat Round, a character with 3 passes will get to go twice before characters with a lesser number passes can even react.  They get to go during the third IP in Round 1 and first in the first IP of Round 2.

The rest of your statement is highly situational.   Characters in a defensive position do not need to move, so they will not have to spend actions moving while an attacker trying to close in on the position will have to spend actions moving.

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2: Make combat less interesting, since so much of it is now spent not actually participating.

We'll have to agree to disagree on our definitions of "interesting" and "participating".  I play a ton of different miniature games and maneuvering to get into position is where a lot of the fun lies.  It also encourages more coordination between team members as it is not easy to correct mistakes.

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3: Reduce options in positioning. You may not realize it, but you are discouraging your players from ever moving less than their full movement rate, because it now makes them feel like they're wasting actions.

I disagree with your assessment.   I feel that is adds in more choices to make.

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Let's say the Agility 4 player wants to take cover behind a wall that's 12 meters away.

For a game that is about combat in labs, office buildings, back alleyways, warehouse, and sewers, 12 meters is an awful long distance.

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One simple action only gets him 8 meters, and now he has to decide whether he wants to use his second simple and waste 4 meters worth of movement, and then be unable to take cover when he gets there anyway because he's out of actions, or if he's going to take a chance rolling Run and trying to get 2 hits. If he fucks up, he doesn't even get to the wall at all.

Oh noos! The player needs to make a tough decision!  Maybe he shouldn't have been caught 12 meter away from cover.  Again 12 meters is a figgin' long distance in most environs where shadowruns take place.

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You've now given your player an annoying choice that wouldn't even be an issue in the normal game, as he'd run the distance, take cover, and still have a spare action to do something else.

I don't see it as an annoying choice.  I see it has the player making a mistake earlier and paying the price to rectify it.

Namikaze

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« Reply #12 on: <07-06-14/0152:38> »
Sorry, but that list isn't proof.  It is a series of activities and not actions.  A better example would have been Charge, which is why I changed Melee attack to a Simple Action.

You didn't ask for "proof" of something.  You asked for examples of things that your proposed system breaks.  Ryo gave you a list of several common activities in combat that normally take two simple actions or one complex action to complete.  Because of your suggestions, movement takes up one of those actions - which reduces the number of tactical options by half.

I have no problem with the activities that you list taking longer because movement has a cost.    I also include two Free Action movement options, so depending on how far the guard needs to move, he can still do many of the activities you list.

Therein lies the problem - you are slowing down combat and removing some of the tactical aspects of Shadowrun's current system in favor of a whole new system.  This is why I suggested just going with a pool of action points that you can use instead.  2m = 1 AP for humans, elves, and orks.  1m = 1 AP for trolls and dwarves.  Or make it all 2m = 1 AP, but then trolls and dwarves suffer a lower rate of speed when running.  Something like that.  Simple actions would take X points, Complex actions take Y points, and Free actions take Z points.  Have the pool calculated based on Agility, Reaction, and Intuition - maybe the sum of the three attributes.  Or make a player roll for it, like Initiative.  There are a LOT of systems that could work, and don't change the fundamentals of the game's combat.


I disagree.  The game already rewards multiple passes very heavily.   After the first Combat Round, a character with 3 passes will get to go twice before characters with a lesser number passes can even react.  They get to go during the third IP in Round 1 and first in the first IP of Round 2.

Not correct.  By the standard system of Initiative, everyone with 1 Initiative Pass gets to act.  Then everyone with 2 Initiative Passes gets to act, then 3, then (rarely) 4 or even 5.  So everyone gets to do something before the speedy guy gets to go again.

I play a ton of different miniature games and maneuvering to get into position is where a lot of the fun lies.  It also encourages more coordination between team members as it is not easy to correct mistakes.

I can agree with this sentiment.  Shadowrun has the potential to be a very tactical game.  After all, it was developed by the same people who developed BattleTech.  But your system slows combat down to a crawl, keeping people from being able to perform basic maneuvers in most cases.


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3: Reduce options in positioning. You may not realize it, but you are discouraging your players from ever moving less than their full movement rate, because it now makes them feel like they're wasting actions.

I disagree with your assessment.   I feel that is adds in more choices to make.

What sort of options do you get with your system, that you don't get with the current system?  You asked for a list of things that your system breaks, Ryo gave it to you.  Turnabout is fair play.

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Let's say the Agility 4 player wants to take cover behind a wall that's 12 meters away.

For a game that is about combat in labs, office buildings, back alleyways, warehouse, and sewers, 12 meters is an awful long distance.

*snip*

I don't see it as an annoying choice.  I see it has the player making a mistake earlier and paying the price to rectify it.

Yes, a player has made a tactical error.  Unfortunately, with your system it will take them 9 seconds to get to that wall.

I dunno about you, but I'm a fat lazy SOB, and I can cover 12 meters way faster than 9 seconds, especially if I'm getting shot at.  If you made your combat turns take less time, then it might be realistic.  But you're not pacing this in your head by time.  You're pacing it by turns, which is very normal for wargaming miniatures.  Nothing wrong with it, but it's not exactly the kind of thing that plays out correctly in a story-telling game, where seconds could be the difference between success and failure.
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« Reply #13 on: <07-06-14/0823:35> »
Therein lies the problem - you are slowing down combat and removing some of the tactical aspects of Shadowrun's current system in favor of a whole new system.  This is why I suggested just going with a pool of action points that you can use instead.  2m = 1 AP for humans, elves, and orks.  1m = 1 AP for trolls and dwarves.  Or make it all 2m = 1 AP, but then trolls and dwarves suffer a lower rate of speed when running.  Something like that.  Simple actions would take X points, Complex actions take Y points, and Free actions take Z points.  Have the pool calculated based on Agility, Reaction, and Intuition - maybe the sum of the three attributes.  Or make a player roll for it, like Initiative.  There are a LOT of systems that could work, and don't change the fundamentals of the game's combat.
Umm... Wouldn't Trolls get 4m = 1 AP? Seeing as how they are like 3 meters tall... Or am I missing something?

emsquared

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« Reply #14 on: <07-06-14/1032:06> »
Not sure how getting 2 melee attacks per IP isn't wayyy more unbalanced than what your PC was doing (which is what a melee PC has to do, and it's not like it's without it's trade-offs), but why not post this in the SR5 houserules section? You didn't ask for input, you don't seem to be at all open to input, what's the point of this thread?