[Hobbes]

Multiple Attacks also explicitly lets you mix and match different weapons, skills, firing modes.

I don't see an issue with a character holding a firearm (such as a pistol or SMG) in one hand and a melee weapon in the other (for example a combat knife).

With a multiple attacks minor action he would then be allowed to attack with both at the same time. For example a wide burst attack with the SMG and at the same time performing a melee attack with the combat knife.

There isn't an issue with different weapons, the issue is the implication that a single Major Action (Attack) plus Minor Action (Multiple Attacks) is allowing you to to make two or more Major Action (Attacks), albeit with a reduced dice pool.  Edge Actions like Shank, Knockout Blow, Anticipate, different Firing Modes have an assortment of restrictions on them and it's up to the GM to sort that out.  And, yes, any given table can sort out something that works, as these threads have shown, it's up for debate as to what is the most correct.  Or least wrong.

My own simple preference would be to do a Wide Burst with an SMG and a melee attack with a combat knife would be that it cost two Major Actions.  Which is an option.  Personally I've rarely seen players split dice pools.  I suspect in 6E the majority of the time anyone is using the Multiple Attacks action it will be in combination with Anticipate or some other attack option.

House Rules discussion

Attacking with two weapons is a +2 AR. 

Mm..... What if you are wielding two different type of weapons?
(what DV and AR value would you use in that case and what if one is set to Full Auto while the other is set to Burst Fire...)

Primary weapon (as decided by the Attacker), and any Firing Mode or Edge Actions, gets +2 AR.  Secondary weapon is, essentially, cosmetic.  Attacking the same, or different, targets with each weapon (or one weapon twice) can be done with two Major Actions.  Both getting a +2 AR.   

I kinda like the idea that if you wield two weapons (or if you have two readied throwing knives or shurikens) then you are suddenly allowed to attack the same target twice (by splitting the pool and spending a multiple attacks minor action).

That the only other option if you wish to attack the same target twice (with a single weapon) is to use a firearm set to full auto (trading 6 AP for a minor action)

Splitting dice pools happens so rarely in game, I don't think eliminating the Multiple Attack Acton is taking a meaningful option away from the players.  There are still AoEs, Firing Modes and then (House ruled) Edge Actions to give players multi-target options.

Like I said above, I suspect a majority of the time players will be using the Multiple Attack Action in combination with some other combat option.  I'd skip the middle man and give the players a well defined pre-bundled option.  YMMV.

[Xenon]

Splitting dice pools happens so rarely in game, I don't think eliminating the Multiple Attack Acton is taking a meaningful option away from the players.

Which is why I like the reading where Multiple Attacks is basically only used when you dual wield (or when you have up to Agility / 2 readied throwing weapons).



House Rules discussion

Attacking with two weapons is a +2 AR. 

Mm..... What if you are wielding two different type of weapons?
(what DV and AR value would you use in that case and what if one is set to Full Auto while the other is set to Burst Fire...)

Primary weapon (as decided by the Attacker), and any Firing Mode or Edge Actions, gets +2 AR.  Secondary weapon is, essentially, cosmetic.  Attacking the same, or different, targets with each weapon (or one weapon twice) can be done with two Major Actions.  Both getting a +2 AR.   

Or when attacking the same target with both weapons at the same time you resolve it as one attack (no splitting) where you pick the higher DV of the two and the higher AR of the two.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I strive to run things as written.

It seem as if SR6 assumes that you also use common sense (more so than perhaps other editions).

I think part of the problem is you and other people view their interpretations as common sense.  You seem to think its common sense that you need multiple weapons for the multiple attacks otherwise it would take 2 majors.  I think 2 majors with one weapon represents taking your time to line up two attacks and a multi attack against the same target represents a rushed 2 attacks. It could be represented by a burst as well, that is up to the player. I think that is common sense.

There obviously should be some limits set up on how many shots a person can get off, or more accurately how many shots anticipation can deal with.  Maybe make some special rule with SA grenade launchers or something, maybe SS shouldn't be able to do it without 2 weapons, maybe what weapons anticipation can apply to needs to be narrowed down so its not 2 grenades. But, just multiple attacks go ahead and shoot 10 times with your 20 skill, 2 dice for each attack woo and hoo, you successfully missed a desk jockey standing out in the open 10 times in a row, toss 2 grenades in one action with 10 dice on each throw. You are going to miss a point blank hit at that point, and the real issue is grenades are broken not that you threw 2 of them.

Limiting it to dual wielding is not a balance issue, it isn't just common sense, its just limiting it to limit it.

You are supposed to use common sense only works if everyone thinks the common sense answers are the same thing.

[penllawen]

I think part of the problem is you and other people view their interpretations as common sense. ...
You are supposed to use common sense only works if everyone thinks the common sense answers are the same thing.

And I think the last few pages of this thread alone demonstrate there is no common common sense to be had here. Everyone has reasonable, but mutually incompatible, explanations. Which isn't too bad for a home game where you can just pick one but:

To be blunt the primary reason I strive to run things as written is for consistency, especially for organized play which is just about all of my SR gaming.

...yes, this.

[Xenon]

Shinobi Killfist and Penllawen, i don't think anyone in here (well, except perhaps you then) think it actually make sense to have no mechanical difference between a weapon in single shot mode (we are not even talking about semi automatic mode here... single shot weapons include tasers, hold outs, bolt action sport rifles, grenade launchers, dart guns and missile launchers) and a weapon in full auto mode (like a SMG, assault rifle or LMG).

The only reason why people argue that you are allowed to fire as many bullets per attack action with a firearm in single shot mode (not even semi automatic mode) as a weapon in full auto mode is because this is what a strict reading of the rules (or one of them) seem to suggest.

Not because it make sense (because I think even you will agree that it does not make sense from a mechanical point of view, from a realistic point of view and not even from a hollywood realistic point of view that a bolt action sport rifle would actually have the same rate of fire as a SMG set to full auto).



Single shot in this edition is when you fire one single bullet per major attack action.

SR6 p. 109 Firing mode
You fire a single bullet.

SR6 p. 112 Breaking Through
Weapons firing in SS mode can create a single hole per attack.


SA in this edition is when you double-tap two bullets per major attack action.

SR6 p. 109 Firing mode
You fire two rounds rapidly with two trigger pulls.

SR6 p. 112 Breaking Through
SA weapons can create 2 holes per Attack action.


Burst in this edition is when you tap the trigger once and out comes 4 bullets per major attack action.

SR6 p. 109 Firing mode
You’ve got a fancy gun that pumps out multiple rounds with a single trigger pull. You can fire four rounds in an attack.

SR6 p. 112 Breaking Through
Burst Fire creates one hole per Attack but gains the DV boost from a narrow burst.


FA in this edition is when you spray one or multiple targets with several short bursts while spending 10 bullets per major attack action.

SR6 p. 109 Firing mode
This can be used to attack a slew of targets or even a single target with a series of small dice pools, with each hit doing the full damage of the weapon. This mode uses ten rounds...

SR6 p. 112 Breaking Through
Full-auto gunfire can be used to make single attack and create a ... hole with each Attack Action...



If you wish to fire two bullets from your single shot taser you need to spend two major actions - OR wield one taser in each hand, firing both of them at the same time in the same major action (by adding the multiple attacks minor action and splitting the pool).

[0B]

I can kind of get where people are coming from on this from a game-balance perspective (What is the point of multiple firing modes if you can shoot single-shot multiple times), but I think the split dice pool already takes care of that.

To me, the 3 seconds to shoot once means that you're getting a sight picture and waiting for the bottom of your breath before shooting. If you aren't using proper form, you can shoot faster than that, even as a single shot, at the cost of accuracy. I think the split dice pool covers this. I don't think I'd be able to shoot more than twice in 3 seconds, at least if I was trying to hit at least the broad side of a barn, but other people are capable of shooting quickly and accurately.

Now, doing full-auto or another mode more than once would strain realism.

Same for melee attacks: Haste makes waste, so you can strike quicker, but you lose out on form. That's also represented by the split dice pool.

I'm curious how you would handle multi-attacks with someone unarmed. I sincerely hope the answer isn't "you can't strike with both your right and left unless you're ambidextrous." You might favor one side or the other, but that's not how combatives works at all. Being ambidextrous doesn't make you a faster martial artist, either.

Basically: From the standpoint of realism, I don't think it makes sense that you need two weapons to make two attacks within 3 seconds. The only argument you can make against it is game balance. I think the split dice pools already cover that, but maybe an AR penalty for using off-hand might be acceptable? I'm unsure.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Personally... my preferred "fix" is to add a bit of codification to the "gm's discretion" to the Multiple Attack restriction:

"You can't multiattack more targets than your current firing mode would expend in bullets if you instead made a firing mode attack."

So, if your gun is currently in SS firing mode, no multi-attack. Sorry.  Not without dual wielding, at any rate.
If your gun is currently in SA firing mode, a multiple attack is capped out at 2 targets.
BF firing mode: capped out at 4 targets.
FA already does not use multiple attacks.

In my view, that's not even a house rule.  It's just a regimented way of applying the existing rule of "GM discretion caps your multiple attacks".
And for the reasons I outlined upthread (and in the SRM ruling), you simply may not (indeed... CAN not) combine multiple attacks with burst attacks.

[Michael Chandra]

So with 6 BF-guns, I can only attack 4 targets with my possible 6x2=12 attacks?

[Reaver]

So with 6 BF-guns, I can only attack 4 targets with my possible 6x2=12 attacks?

I would be more concerned with how you are holding 6 readied BF guns...

[Marcus]

So with 6 BF-guns, I can only attack 4 targets with my possible 6x2=12 attacks?

I would be more concerned with how you are holding 6 readied BF guns...

Paul Smecker : So you're telling me it was one guy with six guns, and he was a senior frigging citizen?

[Reaver]

So with 6 BF-guns, I can only attack 4 targets with my possible 6x2=12 attacks?

I would be more concerned with how you are holding 6 readied BF guns...

Paul Smecker : So you're telling me it was one guy with six guns, and he was a senior frigging citizen?

and even He didn't use 6 guns at one time, but only 2...

He just never reloaded and dropped the empty pistols before drawing 2 new loaded ones...

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

So with 6 BF-guns, I can only attack 4 targets with my possible 6x2=12 attacks?

Well the difference between a SRM rule and a home rule is the home rule has more room for "well, OBVIOUSLY, in that case...."

[Michael Chandra]

There's 2 ways to wield 6 BF-guns, btw, and I'm only pointing out one: SURGE.

[0B]

I feel like it's even harder to aim at multiple targets using BF or another mode that fires multiple shots at once/in short succession. You would have to move the weapon to point it at your next target in between rounds being fired. With an assault rifle, with a cyclic fire rate of 700 - 900 RPM, that ends up at less than 0.10 seconds between each round fired. Sure, a street sam or adept might be able to do it because of Future Science or Magic, but the average person? It's just not physically possible, especially if you need to turn 90 degrees or more to aim at the next opponent.

I'd be more on board with something that says "you can only multi-attack with SS mode or melee" rather than "you can only multi-attack with a mode that expends more than one bullet per trigger squeeze."

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I feel like it's even harder to aim at multiple targets using BF or another mode that fires multiple shots at once/in short succession. You would have to move the weapon to point it at your next target in between rounds being fired. With an assault rifle, with a cyclic fire rate of 700 - 900 RPM, that ends up at less than 0.10 seconds between each round fired. Sure, a street sam or adept might be able to do it because of Future Science or Magic, but the average person? It's just not physically possible, especially if you need to turn 90 degrees or more to aim at the next opponent.

I can subscribe to that... but on the other hand SR can also be considered a game of superpowered superheroes that can do things that mortal normies cannot.  So... there's no universal perfect answer to this rules conflict.