Shadowrun
Shadowrun Missions Living Campaign => Living Campaign Discussion => Topic started by: antaskidayo on <06-23-15/0437:28>
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Hi guys, me and my pals have only played homebrew and would like to start a home group game. what would be the sequence for the titles that are out and legal for srm? thanks
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See http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17971.0 (http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=17971.0) for a full list of missions.
I would recommend that you start with 05-01 to 05-04, then move on to the cmps (Sprawl Wilds, Firing Line, etc.)
Where are you from?
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im from the philippines but im living in new zealand at the moment =)
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btw,....how do you guys fill out the mission calendar? can anyone post a sample, thanks =)
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I used training for skills and attributes (trained means I finished the appropriate training time), learned for spells, and the (J) indicates that I used Jazz during the mission, the rest should be self explanatory.
This is how I do it, really, what works for you should be enough.
(http://s6.postimg.org/fs4pfujyp/Calendar.jpg)
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awesome dude thanks
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i noticed that there's a free week section, can you use that week anytime? or there are special rulings on how to use it? thanks =)
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You get one free week every three months, but you get to decide which of those three months it applies to. However, I feel obliged to point out that it is only my belief that the free week needs to be used during that three month period, I don't recall there actually being a rule about it in the missions FAQ.
It just seems right based on the format of the calendar itself.
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thanks you sir for the prompt reply =)
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Question: If I run the same mission 2x in a single day for 2 different groups at an event or home groups, do I get the DM reward twice?
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What? No, of course not!
From every Missions adventure ever:
When running this adventure you may choose to count the Missions as “played” for their personal Shadowrun Missions character. You must choose to do this the first time your run this Mission only and take the optional results matching those earned by the team you gamemastered for. You may not choose to wait for a better attempt to choose your rewards.
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So the GM only gets the reward once? no matter how many times he re-runs a mission?
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Hmmm is it like:
-Adventurer's League where the DM gets exp and gold rewards for each module he runs and he can spend it on his characters however he wants?
or
-Pathfinder Society where the Gm gets a chronicle sheet from that module where he could apply it to one of his characters?
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Closer to Pathfinder Society. You can only apply GM credit to a character once.
If you run it multiple times, each time you can apply the credit to a different character.
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You may receive GM credit one time only from a module, and it must be from the first time you run it.
At least, that is my understanding as a CDT agent.
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Hmmm, i think i will go with Ferret on this one - if you only get a reward once then that wont be an incentive at all. Besides Faq states that missions will be counted as "played " so you can't apply it to a character that has already done it. It wont make sense as GMs will also have multiple characters and that would be unfair if he only gets to get the reward once.
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You only get the GM credit the first time you GM a mission and you can't play it for credit and apply the credit to the same mission. This is still leaps and bounds over the old SR4 rules where you as the GM got nothing for running an event.
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ouchies if thats the case then, no wonder shadowrun is very scarce in my area. GMs get none to so little.
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Alright,..got my hardbound pre-ordered and will be arriving next week, missions:check, calendar and log sheets covered. Hmm so the best thing to do is get the whole group to do round robin on GM-ing, so no one gets left out. Is that what you guys do on your home groups? CDT agents?
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Since the GM gets credit for GM'ing the game the firs time they run it, they are not left out. This would let a home team run the missions and then come to a major con and all be on the same page if that is what you wanted to do.
You can round robin if you wished just to avoid burning out one person running all of your games.
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What happens when a character dies at SRM?
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What happens when a character dies at SRM?
The character's gear is passed on to his NPC next of kin.
Maybe we could have toe tags made for the players of the dead characters?
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What happens when a character dies at SRM?
Bull covered this some time ago:
Also, apparently I need to add this to the FAQ. You cannot loot fallen players.
this is primarily to avoid "farming". Player 1 needs cash. So he gets Player 2 to to join a several games with characters that have lots of expensive or useful gear but minimum Edge. Player 2 acts fearlessly but recklessly, deliberately getting himself killed. Player 1 (and friends/teammates) loot body and split the gear and cash each game.
In a home game, I would expect a GM to smack these guys upside the head. But at a convention, where you will probably be running under different GMs every game? Totally possible, and the GMs wouldn't even realize this is going on.
So, umm... Yeah. Remember, realism sometimes has to take a smoke break when it comes to Organized Play, because there are people who can and will abuse the system every way they can.
Not wishing to sound harsh, but a lot of these questions are covered by the Missions FAQ at the top of this sub-forum.
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In my opinion, you should be GMing Shadowrun (especially as an Agent) because you love the game and the personal rewards you get from GMing with a group of individuals who can become lifelong friends. If you're in it strictly for GM rewards, then you probably have the wrong motivation.
However, Agents receive small rewards, not nearly as healthy as some of the other programs which do exist, but there are some.
I am working to change that, but that shouldn't be the major reason you want to run Shadowrun.
Of course, this is my opinion and everyone has one.
In some areas, in which you have multiple Agents/GMs, it's nice to sit down and play instead of GM., because some of us rarely get a chance to do so. It's not to get karma for a different character (though that is an obvious side effect), but to be able to play!!
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Correct me if I'm wrong, Sinthalix/Ray, but:
My understanding is that while you only get credit for a module once, and you have to take the results on your first time running it (to keep you from cherry picking), those awards are applicable to any and every Missions character you make.
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I see we'll have to further clarify this particular part of the FAQ to make it a little more clear.
My understanding of the intent of it based on both the FAQ and reading the Gamemaster Reward Section in the SRMs:
- The first time you run it, you may choose to count it as played for your personal character (singular and what I also call primary).
- Thereafter, you can run it a million times, but you do not receive the GM Reward because you did not choose to take it the first time.
- Therefore, though it is not spelled out, if you did NOT take the reward and you play a Mission you already GMed, then your character will receive the normal reward as a player subject to the normal rules.
- Like most people, I have a couple of Missions characters in the event I can actually play and one of them hasn't already played a particular Mission.
-- One of them is my Primary character whom I choose to give the GM rewards.
-- The other one will never receive GM rewards because he is not my primary character.
Now I see this leads to an interesting situation: what if I already played SRM xx, but haven't GMed it...and now I'm going to GM SRM xx...do I get the GM Reward?
- I have no idea if Bull has addressed this or what his intent was, but my initial thought is "No".
If Bull would like to chime in with his original intent, since he's still SRM Developer at this time, he's more than welcome to!
We will discuss this further (as in the FAQ Committee) and address it with a new SRM FAQ. Please don't ask for an ETA yet, because we have a lot of stuff to cover, and get ready for GenCon.
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I see we'll have to further clarify this particular part of the FAQ to make it a little more clear.
My understanding of the intent of it based on both the FAQ and reading the Gamemaster Reward Section in the SRMs:
- The first time you run it, you may choose to count it as played for your personal character (singular and what I also call primary).
- Thereafter, you can run it a million times, but you do not receive the GM Reward because you did not choose to take it the first time.
- Therefore, though it is not spelled out, if you did NOT take the reward and you play a Mission you already GMed, then your character will receive the normal reward as a player subject to the normal rules.
- Like most people, I have a couple of Missions characters in the event I can actually play and one of them hasn't already played a particular Mission.
-- One of them is my Primary character whom I choose to give the GM rewards.
-- The other one will never receive GM rewards because he is not my primary character.
Now I see this leads to an interesting situation: what if I already played SRM xx, but haven't GMed it...and now I'm going to GM SRM xx...do I get the GM Reward?
- I have no idea if Bull has addressed this or what his intent was, but my initial thought is "No".
If Bull would like to chime in with his original intent, since he's still SRM Developer at this time, he's more than welcome to!
We will discuss this further (as in the FAQ Committee) and address it with a new SRM FAQ. Please don't ask for an ETA yet, because we have a lot of stuff to cover, and get ready for GenCon.
That really needs to be clarified ASAP in the FAQ, because a lot of those references are to "character" and not "player" on page 4 of the current FAQ, from which I infer that I can get GM credit on each of my 4 characters if I've GMed it 4 times. (If that changes, I suddenly have 3 non-legal characters and 1 pretty-much-retired primary character.)
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I am in much the same boat as Dr. Meatgrinder. 6 non-legal characters, including 1 with 90 karma.
Admittedly, I am biased, but I don't see the downside of allowing GMs to get GM credit multiple times per module, but only once per character.
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Those of you who know me well, also know I interpret everything in the strictest sense possible. Therefore, that is the interpretation I have personally used because I read it thus. We will have this clarified soon.
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I'll be honest, I didn't really consider folks running a single adventure umpteen times, because ideally, they are the vast minority of GMs running these. And for GMs running these at conventions or home stores, they should be part of the CDT Agent program, which means they're actually getting credit for running these games as an Agent, which has its own awards out of game.
The idea behind opening this up was so that when you had a GM who ran a regular game at home or at his local game store, he's always the GM and thus doesn't get the opportunity to play much. And it would kind of suck if he got to go to a gaming convention with some of his game buddies, but was stuck playing a 0 karma character while his buds all have 100+ karma ones, because he was always the GM.
So yeah. Ideally, the GM just has one character. Because really, if you're GMing that much anyway, what good are 10 different 100 karma characters ultimately going to do you anyway?
That was the original intent, at least.
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Thats why I asked about character death coz a GM's character can also die. If he has only one character and can't get anymore GM creds from previous modules then how does he recover from that setback?
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Personally I think its healthier for a GM to have experiences on different character templates in order to know how to balance different party composition on a module or how to aid them incase the party hits a wall. Anyways, if SRM only gives GM cred once then its fine, I just need to know how to handle GM character death setback.
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I'll be honest, I didn't really consider folks running a single adventure umpteen times, because ideally, they are the vast minority of GMs running these. And for GMs running these at conventions or home stores, they should be part of the CDT Agent program, which means they're actually getting credit for running these games as an Agent, which has its own awards out of game.
The idea behind opening this up was so that when you had a GM who ran a regular game at home or at his local game store, he's always the GM and thus doesn't get the opportunity to play much. And it would kind of suck if he got to go to a gaming convention with some of his game buddies, but was stuck playing a 0 karma character while his buds all have 100+ karma ones, because he was always the GM.
So yeah. Ideally, the GM just has one character. Because really, if you're GMing that much anyway, what good are 10 different 100 karma characters ultimately going to do you anyway?
That was the original intent, at least.
All it takes is coming back around to replay the Missions line, which people do. Since I've GMed most of the missions at their convention debut, when I get home I can't play...just get back behind the screen and GM some more. :-\
By your logic, why are players allowed to play (for credit) a mission 10 times with 10 different characters?
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So yeah. Ideally, the GM just has one character. Because really, if you're GMing that much anyway, what good are 10 different 100 karma characters ultimately going to do you anyway?
Thats why I asked about character death coz a GM's character can also die. If he has only one character and can't get anymore GM creds from previous modules then how does he recover from that setback?
Aside from the death issue, 10 different 100 karma characters gives you options when you play. Generally,they would probably have a different set of modules on each. So, if you got a chance to play 05-05, you could look at your characters and pick one that does not have credit for that module. It also allows for versatility. If you sit down to play your Troll Technomancer, and it turns out that everyone is playing Troll Technomancers and Deckers, you would have the option of pulling a different character out to balance the party better.
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Yes, I don't particularly understand the drawback to allowing credits going to multiple characters for GMs. I won't go over why that might be beneficial, other agents have touched on that.
Honestly, I think that we should either allow all GMd missions credits to go towards any character, or if we really do think that's too much, then GMs can assign Primary, Secondary, Tertiary characters and then the first time they run a mission, it goes to their primary, the second time they run it, to their secondary, etc. This keeps the cherry picking mitigated, which was explained as a reason we use the first mission.
The latter creates more 'bookkeeping', the former is just easier overall.
I am not a Catalyst Agent because I am looking for rewards, but I do like that my time behind the screen contributes to my time in front of it. If I run 5 people through the Seasons 5 times and they all get 5 characters with all the bells and whistles... why shouldn't I?
So, I get it, the rules say a specific thing... but you are the keepers of the rules after all.
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I'm just pointing out why that specific ruling was worded the way it was. It's simply not something that I thought much about before.
It's in Ray's hands now, and I'm sure this conversation has given him something to think about.
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I'll be honest, I didn't really consider folks running a single adventure umpteen times, because ideally, they are the vast minority of GMs running these. And for GMs running these at conventions or home stores, they should be part of the CDT Agent program, which means they're actually getting credit for running these games as an Agent, which has its own awards out of game.
The idea behind opening this up was so that when you had a GM who ran a regular game at home or at his local game store, he's always the GM and thus doesn't get the opportunity to play much. And it would kind of suck if he got to go to a gaming convention with some of his game buddies, but was stuck playing a 0 karma character while his buds all have 100+ karma ones, because he was always the GM.
So yeah. Ideally, the GM just has one character. Because really, if you're GMing that much anyway, what good are 10 different 100 karma characters ultimately going to do you anyway?
That was the original intent, at least.
All it takes is coming back around to replay the Missions line, which people do. Since I've GM'd most of the missions at their convention debut, when I get home I can't play...just get back behind the screen and GM some more. :-\
By your logic, why are players allowed to play (for credit) a mission 10 times with 10 different characters?
this was my thought exactly, whats the difference between playing the mission 10x with 10 different characters as there are rules for it in the missions FAQ (sit back enjoy the ride, don't try to metagame, don't try to influence the group to get a better result etc), and the GM running the game 10x and crediting 10 different characters with the credit? this is my interpretation of it with one caveat, the mission credit can ONLY go to a character that has been created and is missions legal at the time of the GM running the game. which i believe is also spelled out in the GM credit area somewhere...
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Okay so me and my buddies should register at http://www.catalystdemos.com/ and use those accts for the mission? is that correct? thnx
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antaskidayo, what is your ultimate goal?
If you and your group of friends merely want to play Shadowrun, it is not necessary to 'register' at the Catalyst site (though it doesn't hurt).
If you are a Shadowrun enthusiast and are having a hard time finding a group to play with, registering at the Catalyst site can help you find other players in your area, though the site is not really optimized for locations that don't follow a sort of 'City' ST' format. Being in New Zealand, I don't know how easy it would be to use the site's functionality to find players.
If you would like to kickstart a Shadowrun community in your area, then definitely sign up at the Catalyst site and submit to be a Catalyst Demo Team Agent. Then you can host events at local game stores and share Shadowrun with others. This can give you access to some pre-release content and PDFs of most of the rulebooks as they come out.
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What do you mean? Don't you need to indicate some kind of acct number on the logsheets when you play SRM?( I thought it is included on the paperwork to keep things official ) I know its like that for organized play - like Adventurer's League(DCI number) or Pathfinder Society(Pathfinder #). Regarding joining the Demo Team,...we'll think about it later, maybe when me and my pals are more familiar with 5ED, so many changes from the last time we played. We'll try first the round robin GM-ing and see which direction it will lead to.
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No, not at all. If you are JUST running Missions and are not interested in joining the Demo Team (at this time, maybe later) and you don't foresee your players taking their characters to other 'Missions Legal' tables, then you don't need any sort of 'account' number.
In fact if the above is true, you don't need documentation at all, except for your own use.
If you foresee your players going to another 'Missions Legal' table with their character, then they will want those logs... maybe. I don't see any Missions GM kicking someone off the table with an otherwise Missions Legal character simply because they can't produce all of their logs.
In either case, you can't be a 'Missions Legal' character if you run them through anything outside of the Missions line and they keep their Karma and rewards. You CAN run them through a non-Missions line adventure and they can stay Missions Legal as long as they don't keep any Karma/Nuyen/Street Cred/ Contacts, etc.
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Now, if you want to become a CDT Agent, this sort of changes. As a CDT Agent, anytime you run an OPEN table event (that is at a Public Venue registered with Catalyst and that is open to the public, so anyone can sit down) you will earn a credit if you report the event, how many people attended, who they were, etc. You can use those credits to get PDF copies of Shadowrun source material and fluff.
Currently, players can also be marked for attendance but there is no benefit to do so... though Catalyst is trying to think of something.
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Anyway, bottom line, if this is just you and a group of friends, there is nothing more that you need to do than get a copy of the adventures and run them.
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No were not gona play homebrew. Thats why I asked about mission-legal stuff and all those things at the start of the thread. But how do you guys trace people playing SRM home-group games if you don't use account numbers and such? How will I know if a player's logsheet is authentic and he didn't just made it all up?
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From the FAQ:
Any special blanket rules players and gamemasters should be aware of?
Yes, there are three.
Wheaton’s Law: Don’t Be A Dick. This means that players and gamemasters alike should remember that everyone at the table is there to have fun. Characters might be utter bastards, but players should be courteous and considerate of other players and not do anything that would ruin the fun of others at the table. This means accepting that payments are divided evenly amongst the characters. This means not playing out flaws, character quirks, or whatever else you think is “in character” if it will ruin the fun of other players or make them uncomfortable. And it means no non-consensual PvP (player versus player) actions such as mind controlling, attacking, or stealing from other players. One person’s fun is never more important than anyone else’s.
In Player We Trust. From time to time gamemasters may do a character audit and look over your sheet, but at the end of the day they are rarely going to sit and do all the math and inspect every item, every skill, every contact, and every Mission Log. At the end of the day, we trust the player to be honest in their record keeping and their math. Please be honest and don’t abuse our trust. It’s just a game, and if you need to cheat to “win” a roleplaying game, it’s a little sad.
In Gamemaster We Trust. Missions adventures are written to be as broad as possible and to encompass as much as possible while still telling a good, fun story. However, we never know what the players are going to bring to the table, and any gamemaster who has sat behind the screen knows that players rarely follow the roadmaps that are laid out for them. So Missions gamemasters need to think fast on their feet, will often have to improvise, and will often need to adjust the power level and scale of the adventure to fit the players. And that’s okay! We trust the gamemaster. Feel free to adapt as needed, so long as the core adventure and events remain intact. Add what you need, remove what you need. Just try to keep the adventure rewards within the established guidelines for the Mission, and don’t go giving out attack helicopters or let them have Lofwyr as a contact. Keep things sane for the next gamemaster who deals with these players!
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It's really #2 and #3 there. This could change at some point, but currently Missions doesn't have the time, manpower, energy, budget, resources, etc to get all fancy with Missions. So long as you have a character, half the GMs won't even bother looking your character over, and won't bat an eye at anything you say or do unless you pull out something crazy like a Rating 10 Sniper Rifle Weapon Focus.
Shadowrun's not a nice, neat class and level based system where we can categorize and file cahracters away nice and neat. So we don't really bother trying. It's on you, as the GM, and you as the player to be honest, be straight forward, and to play to have fun.
You want to cheat? Eh. You're just cheating yourself.
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^ What that guy said!
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Ah ok, thanks for the prompt reply.
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Woot I got my core book and SR5 - SRM05A-01 - Chasin' the Wind, its awesome but I can't find the part in the corebook where you generate an encounter, I'd like to add stuff to the module but I need to know how to gauge party strength and what are the limits in modifying the module so it will still be legal.
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bump^
,...btw is there a way to add sound suppression on an ARES Crusader II on 5ED?
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is there a way to add sound suppression on an ARES Crusader II on 5ED?
The Ares Crusader II comes with a Gas Vent II system which is a barrel mounted accessory. The book states that this is an integral accessory (Core 427), the integral part says to me it's part of the gun itself and thus cannot be removed (at least with the rules as provide in the books). As long as it has the Gas Vent system, it cannot also have a suppressor, as each location can only mount one accessory (Core 431).
In Missions, I would say, "No, you can't swap them out." In a home game, I would probably allow an Armorer test to remove the integral gas vent system, and change the barrel to a standard barrel that can swap between various accessories... but the integral gas vent system would be garbage and if I wanted to swap a gas vent system back in, I'd have to buy a mountable one.
... what are the limits in modifying the module so it will still be legal.
There is no really good answer to this. Honestly, when I first started GMing for Missions, I went strictly by the book and didn't add a thing. A year later with two games a week and 4 day Convention under my belt, I am confident in my ability to tweak encounters to challenge the players while remaining well clear of just being a dick.
I would say keep any modifications light to begin with until you feel comfortable being able to gauge your party strength and what they can handle without needing the book to tell you, because man, Shadowrun is not at all like D&D with a sort of method to calculate Encounter Points or whatever, based on the combined level of your party.
As for the limits of modifying it? If you want to throw a dragon at them because that's what you want to do, there is nothing but your own common sense keeping you from doing it, really... as long as at the end of the Mission, their rewards are based on what you find in Picking Up the Pieces. No, "Well, you killed a dragon so here's another point of Karma not expressly granted by the Missions author."
I refer you back to Bull's rules, particularly "In Gamemaster We Trust".
Just keep within the flavor of the Mission, tweak it if you wish, but probably avoid adding something that's completely unrelated to the run, and make sure their rewards are within the bounds of the rewards chapter. I generally allow looting up to about 10% of what they otherwise earned on the run. If something would push them 15-20% or higher in terms of fenced loot, I figure out a way to deny it to them... so that Cyberdeck got busted in half, the car crashed, etc.
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yeah its really hard to gauge party strength, it got me thinking when i was trying out chargen and its a level- less system. thanks for the input
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can you purchase gear higher than Availability 12 after chargen?
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Yes, but your face needs to be good, and you will probably be paying more than the market cost. It might not be so bad if the gm has time to watch you roll dice, but between game purchases are done using the buying hits method.
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Thanks Ferret,.. I'm testing out the mystic-adept and just found out that you can't buy anymore PP after chargen, its either metamagic or PP *shocks O___O
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It is how they balanced mystic adepts this edition. When Missions first started, after core was released, almost all characters were mystic adepts due to low karma for pp (2) and no limit on pp after chargen. Missions FAQ fixed issues, main game mirrored changes in errata.
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"Any non-living objects
appear as faded semblances of their physical selves;
grey, lifeless, and intangible."
- so if someone uses astral perception they see the walls, floors, ceilings and doors as gray faded semi-solid, and see the bright metahuman auras behind it? is that how it is supposed to work? i'm trying to find words on how to describe player experience, thanks =)
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While it will be faded, lifeless and grey, it will still be opaque and solid. You are unable to see through the wall, and just to point this out, this goes for windows too, as a lifeless object, it will be grey and opaque too.
And just to be clear, this is based on understanding from previous editions, not from clearly written information in this one.
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hmmm thats odd,..faded and intangible means see through, - I don't see opaque(how is it faded then?) and solid( how is it intangible if it is solid?) on the astral section.
I think that's why you need to discern things with the assensing skill to make sense of all those overlaying transparent stuff which is hard to understand.
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Faded refers to the color, intangible means detail. Basically, outside of living beings and masgically astral objects, everything else looks usually looks dull, gray, and flat. You can't read in astral space, and you wouldn't be able to tell who a statue was carved to be (It would basically looks like a mannequin), and you wouldn't be able to tell the color of a car, just it's general shape and style.
Intangible itself is a bit of a misnomer as well. Back in 1st and 2nd edition, auras were unable to pass through each other, including living auras. One of the best astral defenses was to let a solid growth of ivy cover the walls, for example. So in this case, intangible meant that it had no solidity on the astral plane.
(This was changed in 3rd ed due to a growing number of "immovable Objects vs Irresistible Force" type paradox scenarios, mostly brought about due to FAB. It was a whole thing once upon a time.)
But yes, short, semi official answer from a freelancer? You cannot see through things in astral space.
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Thanks Bull
Another question guys:
FULL DEFENSE
A character may increase their focus on defense
against any form of attack at any point in a Combat
Turn, so long as the character is not surprised
Direct: When your direct combat spell is successfully
cast, it inflicts a number of boxes of damage equal
to your net hits on the opposed test. The opposed test
generally pits your Spellcasting + Magic [Force] against
either Body (for physical spells) or Willpower (for mana
spells). The target does not get to resist the damage,
only the Spellcasting test.
SPELL RESISTANCE
Cost: 0.5 PP per level
You are inherently resistant to spells. Add +1 die per
level to Resistance Tests against spells, spell rituals, alchemical
preparations, or Innate Spell critter power (but
not other critter powers).
Okay so if a Mage hits a target in full defense with a manabolt, does he add his Willpower? and Spell resistance cannot affect the manabolt since the roll involves an opposed spellcasting/defense test and not a resistance test, right?(feels weird spell resistance but cant resist certain spells) thnx
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One of the differences between Direct and Indirect spells is that the latter requires that you actually hit them while the former does not count as an 'attack'.
If you look at how the spells are resolved, you can see that Indirect Spells behave like other ranged attacks, in that the spell target gets a Reaction + Intuition Role (aka Defense Roll) and if they succeed with more net hits than the spell caster, the spell 'misses' (it went off, the firebolt, lightning bolt, or whatever still flies from the fingers of the mage and everyone sees it, it just misses). THEN if the spell hits, you can resist the damage (aka Soak Roll).
A Direct spell, however, does not shoot a tangible object from your fingers. You make a spell casting test that is opposed by Willpower or Body. If the spell goes off, it does 'net hits' of UNRESISTED damage. In other words, you don't get a Soak Roll.
SO! Full Defense applies to Indirect Spells, but not to Direct Spells.
A little bit unclear is how Spell Resistance applies to Indirect Spells. Do you apply the Resistance to the 'Defense' or the 'Soak'? I think an argument can be made for both. BUT, I would apply it to the Soak Roll, because the wording:
"Damage from an indirect combat spell is resisted with Body + Armor (adjusted for the spell’s AP)."
So you resist 'magical damage' after physically dodging the magical projectile. I am sure that someone will have an alternate viewpoint and am happy to concede that the Spell Resistance dice might be applied to the opposed Spellcasting vs Defense roll.
For Direct Spells, it says: "The target does not get to resist the damage, only the Spellcasting test." So in that case, you resist the Spellcasting test, therefore, Spell Resistance applies.
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I'll be honest, I didn't really consider folks running a single adventure umpteen times, because ideally, they are the vast minority of GMs running these. And for GMs running these at conventions or home stores, they should be part of the CDT Agent program, which means they're actually getting credit for running these games as an Agent, which has its own awards out of game.
It does? Newer CDT Agent here, 5 games in...
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Tai-Pan: PM sent.
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Okay guys here's another one:
At character creation, a specialization costs 1 skill
point. No individual skill may have more than one specialization.
As a character develops, though, they may
gain other areas of expertise (for example, you may
complement your axe knowledge with sword expertise)
and so add more specializations to the same skills.
Along with being purchased in this step, specializations
may be purchased using Karma at the end of character
creation (see Character Advancement, p. 103).
Okay so I buy Unarmed Combat 6 for 6 skill points and spend another 1 skill point to spec on Gun Kata, and then spend 7 Karma for another martial arts - is that how it works? I can spec on other skills with 1 skill point as long as it is only one spec right?
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You can specialize for 1 Skill Point once for each separate skill.
Specializing in the Martial Art does not actually give you the Martial Art. So if you Specialize in Gun Kata, but then spend 7 Karma to take Aikido, you will have no maneuvers for which you can take advantage of your specialization.
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you get 1 free maneuver, when you spec on the style right? awww crap you can only buy 1 style at chargen =/
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you get 1 free maneuver, when you spec on the style right?
You get a free technique when you learn the style. But the style and its corresponding specialization are not the same thing, even if they cost the same. If you want to learn both the style and the corresponding specialization, you're spending 14 karma: 7 for the style + 7 (or 1 skill point at chargen) for the specialization.
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UNARMED COMBAT
Unarmed Combat covers the various self-defense and attack
moves that employ the body as a primary weapon.
This includes a wide array of martial arts along with the
use of cybernetic implant weaponry and the fighting styles
that sprung up around those implants.
Default: Yes
Skill Group: Close Combat
Specializations: Blocking, Cyber Implants, Subduing
Combat, or by specific Martial Art
- So I buy 6 skill ranks on unarmed combat and spend 1 more skill point for Gun Kata to get a +2 and a technique. Why do I need to spend 7 more Karma? Taking it at this stage is not specializing? How come it is under specializations? Isn't learning a new style already a specialization? O_O imma confused
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Specialization is separate from learning the style.
The specialization gives you +2 dice to your pool when using that style of martial arts, usually this means using the maneuvers that you have learned for that art (This costs 1 skill point at character creation or 7 karma after) And to clarify, your GM decides if you can use this bonus for anything that is not a maneuver associated with the art (Unless future errata changes this), and may rule that just because you specialized in boxing, you don't get an extra 2 dice when punching someone but you would get it with the Haymaker maneuver you learned with Boxing. Again, GM call on how far it goes, but at least applies to the maneuvers you have learned.
Learning the style (Which has a separate cost of 7 karma, during or after character creation) grants you access to additional maneuvers that are associated with the style, here is where you get one maneuver for free and learn future maneuvers at a cost of 5 karma apiece. Note, some maneuvers can not be used until they have been learned.
Yes, I know it is a bit confusing.
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okay so what you are telling me is:
-You buy unarmed skill, max of 6 at chargen
-You then spend 7 Karma to enable a single specific style of martial art and get a free maneuver( You are limited to only 1 style at chargen )
-You may then use karma to buy additional maneuvers upto 4 more which is the style's maximum for 5 Karma each
-If I then want to have a +2 dice when using these manuevers, I need to spend 7 Karma( or 1 skill point at chargen ) to specialize on the style
-So basically, martial arts just lets you have additional combat options( like parry, dodge, etc ) that are restricted until you unlock them with Karma. (It feels weird, I was expecting like a boxer would always get his +2 dice whenever he uses his fists and would lose the -2 if for some reason he could not use them defaultng to his normal Unarmed Skill rank, or like Gun Kata he gets a +2 whenever he uses his pistols when fighting and loses them when he gets dis-armed, etc. It doesn't look great anymore, as some maneuvers don't let you make tests which turns Martial arts into some kinda karma sink hole)
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The 1pt (or 7 after character generation) is just for specialization (+2 dice when using that specialization), not buying the martial art. The martial art is a separate 7pt cost (during or after character generation).
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edited,..is that how it is? They should add an example sidebar on the martial arts section so it wont be so confusing @__@
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Martial Arts can account for a few cool tricks, but I admit I am mostly underwhelmed by them, in practice.
There are some really cool maneuvers, though. Nothing is as satisfying as murdering someone when they attack you (riposte/counterstrike).
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Martial arts styles may
also be selected as specializations for the normal cost
of 7 Karma—selecting that specialization provides a +2
bonus when using that technique.
Sample Maneuver:
CLOSE QUARTER FIREARMS
(RANGED WEAPONS ONLY)
In the early use of ranged weapons when the enemy
charged in with swords and axes, this sort of training
helped keep the archer alive. Today this technique has
been modified to be effective with firearms while in
close-quarter combat with an opponent. This has been
effective against being charged by an opponent or
within a mixed amount of close combat and exchange
of fire. Close Quarter Firearms is learned for a specific
Ranged Weapon Skill. Reduce the ranged combat Attacker
in Melee Combat modifier by 1 for the character
when using Firearms, Bow, or Throwing Weapons
Skill (depending on the Martial Art style it’s tied to).
This technique can be selected more than once to gain
each skill.
-That's the normal usage for the maneuver, will the modifier become a 3 if specialization is applied?
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Martial Arts can account for a few cool tricks, but I admit I am mostly underwhelmed by them, in practice.
There are some really cool maneuvers, though. Nothing is as satisfying as murdering someone when they attack you (riposte/counterstrike).
That's always funny to see. :)
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In that case, anytime you would receive the reduction in the negative modifier due to the technique, you would also receive +2 to that Dice Pool for your Specialization. It's not the same as saying that the modifier is 3, though the end result turns out to be pretty much exactly that.
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MULTIPLE OPPONENT DEFENSE
Sometimes you’re banging multiple heads together, other
times you have a group of thugs all intent on crushing
your skull. In the latter case, use Multiple Opponent Defense
to give you a shot at keeping your skull in its proper
three-dimensional shape. If you have this and are being
attacked in melee combat by multiple assailants, reduce
Friends in Melee modifier for the attackers by 1 or reduce
the Defender has Defended Against Previous Attacks
penalty by 1 (meaning that the –1 die penalty starts on
the third attack). Characters can use only one of these options,
as noted in their particular martial arts style.
what about this case? penalty would start at 5th attack?
1st attack: +2 dice
2nd attack: +2 dice
3rd attack: +1 dice
4th attack: 0 dice mod
5th attack: -1 dice
is that correct?
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The bonus for Specialization would only apply if the skill that the Specialization is attached to comes into play. If you have Multiple Opponent Defense and your Specialization is attached to your Unarmed skill, you would not get the +2 because you are not adding your Unarmed to the Dice Pool, UNLESS you are using the Block Interrupt action, in which case you would apply the +2 to that Interrupt action.
If that were to happen, calculate your Block Defense Dice Pool as normal, then apply your +2 if Multiple Opponent Defense comes into play. This would only apply in the second part of Multiple Opponent Defense, where you reduce your own Dice Pool penalty for being in combat with Multiple Opponents.
You would not gain any advantage other than the one granted for the former part of Multiple Opponent Defense, since it is a modifier to the attacker's Dice Pool.
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That doesn't make sense, the martial art gives that bonus through the maneuver but won't let you apply specialization bonus? then why spec on the martial art or buy that maneuver? If for example i spec on gun kata and gives me close quarter firearms maneuver then by your logic and the previous example, the spec is tied up to my unarmed skill then I wont get the +2 dice because i will be using my pistol skills, and only get 1 mod from the maneuver,... thats really crap, i hope they review these mechanics, its horrible. Thanks for the reply jade.
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You can take Gun Kata as a Specialization for Pistols. You can take Parkour as a specialization for Gymnastics. Etc.
And yes, I agree that some of the Martial Arts mechanics are... not well-implemented. For example, I don't like that you have to have a MA to take a Specialization at all in Unarmed. I get why... specialize in Punches and why would you do anything but punch? There is literally no benefit to kicking or slapping or elbowing... it's fluff with no mechanical differences... but it still rubs me the wrong way. I should be able to make a Boxer without resorting to using Run and Gun. Just specialize in punches and BOOM, you're a Boxer. Specialize in subdued and your a Wrestler.
I understand your frustration, though.
You are asking good questions.
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I thought that when you are using the MULTIPLE OPPONENT DEFENSE maneuver - it is treated that you are automatically using the martial art ( because if you don't have the MA you wouldn't be able to do so ). Now this maneuver is linked to your Def pool ( Reaction + Intuition ) - I thought that certain situations would allow you to add spec bonus and add the +2 dice to your def test. That's how I arrived at this when using Defended Against Previous Attacks:
1st attack: +2 dice bonus from spec on the MA
2nd attack: +2 dice ( the 1st -1 is negated by the maneuver )
3rd attack: +1 dice ( 3rd attack gives -2 )
4th attack: 0 dice mod ( 4th attack -3 )
5th attack: -1 dice ( 5th attack -4,...etc )
- I don't see how different this is from one specializing in MA with OPPOSING FORCE [ Parry = Reaction + Intuition + weapon(physical) ]. They get +2 from spec on MA and +1 with OPPOSING FORCE for a total of +3 dice bonus on the defense pool. As you can see both maneuvers don't use the UNARMED SKILL
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I think you all just made me develop an Allergy (Severe) to Numbers. ;)
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I'm confused about where you got your example about Opposing Force.
That said, there are two types of Opposing Force, one is a Block and one is a Parry. If you have a Specialization in Unarmed for the requisite MA, then you will get the bonus when using Opposing Force (Block) but NOT Opposing Force (Parry). If you take the specialization in blades or clubs for your MA, then you will get the bonus when using Opposing Force (Parry) but not Opposing Force (Block)... because the dice pool for those include the respective skill.
Now, I'm not like, the main arbiter of the rules or anything, and I am aware that I may be wrong. I would say that different GMs might apply the rules different ways at their table. I would find it reasonable to presume that a MA Specialization might apply to your defense pool if using a Technique, even though the Technique doesn't add the skill with the specialization to the Dice Pool... there is a difference between RAW (Rules as Written) and RAI (Rules as Intended).
But I would definitely draw the line at allowing a Specialization for MA in Unarmed to apply to a Parry action (that requires you have a weapon). If you want it to apply while holding a sword, take the Specialization in Blades or Clubs.
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lol i hope cyber and matrix stuff be more simple than this ;D
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They aren't ::)
But we are happy to help with any questions you have!
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If you have a cyber torso and full set of cyber arms and legs, can you still use a synaptic booster?
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Yes, as long as you have the essence, of course.
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if you had a STR and AGI of 1, but got your whole body replaced by cyberlimbs, would your AGI and STR be replaced by the STR and AGI of the cyberlimb? or are there tests that still require you to use your original un-augmented AGI and STR?
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Alright, here we go:
How Cyberlimbs affect your Attributes:
Cyberlimbs do NOT affect your Physical Limit. If your 'whole' strength is 2, your reaction is 2, and your body is 2, then your Physical Limit is 3, even if you have Strength 9 on every arm and leg and cyber torso.
When using a skill that involves only the limb in question, you use the Attribute of that limb. Shooting an SMG with your right cyberarm allows you to make use of the agility of that cyberarm. Punching with your cyberarm gives you damage based on the strength of the cyberarm.
When using a skill that makes use of multiple limbs, you use the average attribute of the limbs in question. Agility 2 with a right cyberarm agility 8 shooting a sniper rifle acts as if he has Agility 5 for the test.
When using a skill that requires the 'careful coordination' of many limbs, which I read to mean you put most of your body into it... leaping across gaps, doing somersaults, etc... you use the lowest Attribute in the equation (probably your natural, but you may have bought a weak cyberarm or something).
That's for full limbs. Partial limbs, hands, and feet only apply that attribute to skills that reasonably only use that part of the body. A cyberhand gives you no bonus to firing an smh or rifle (though some may allow it to apply to a pistol). However, to pick a lock with that hand, you would get the hand's agility.
Clear as mud?
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so even if you had a full customized cyber body ( torso + all limbs ) your physical limit would still be 3?
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Yes. Mechanically, it is what keeps you from cheesing your attributes. Fluff wise, your torso is really only a shell, so your internals and all rely on your natural strength or something.
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thats weird, you have ubber fast augmented reflexes with your gymnastic skills.... and you can only count upto 3 hits on a dodge test? thats very funny, its like you dodged right into the path of the bullet with precise accuracy lol and thats not even a glitch lmao
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You haven't developed your 'core' strength to be able to match the skill. Do more crunches!
And if you have augmented your reflexes (reaction), it is likely your physical limit will be higher than 3, because Reaction adds to your limit.
It makes sense to me, though. With a limit of 3, you should be able to perform most actual gymnastics maneuvers. Look at the thresholds of vehicle maneuvers. The highest listed threshold is 4.
But getting out of the way of someone slashing you with a sword, who's really really good at slashing you with a sword, that requires more than just agility, but a combination of your agility, reaction, and strength. And that's core strength to get your whole body moving and twisting properly.
Of course, this is all just a possible fluff justification. Bottom line for the mechanics is it's about balance. Dropping your attributes to priority E but getting Priority C or B level attributes because you took Priority A Resources but not having any drawback is not in keeping with the balance and mechanics of Shadowrun.
'Everything has a price'
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you paid with your humanity right? essence? you were willing to become more like a machine just to get an edge. Besides the only flesh left is your head and spine with a full cyberbody - ala robocop(the latest one), I think thats a very tough core.
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No. Read what a Cybertorso and Cyberskull are.
From Core Rulebook, page 455:
"Cyberskulls and –torsos are included in the “cyber- limbs” category, though they are in fact shells rather than full replacements (or actual limbs)."
So if you have a cybertorso, you still have all of your internal organs, bones, connective tissue. Even if we assume that the 'outer' musculature is replaced, they might still rely on the strength of the connective tissues to keep from wrenching your spine out of place, or snapping tendons along your rib cage or whatever. Thus, even though you have really strong and agile parts, they are limited by these aspects of your natural body.
And yes, you paid essence, but in return you get additional strength, agility, armor, smuggling compartments, and all the other stuff yu put in. What you DON'T get is a higher physical limit. Unless you actually build those up.
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can you slave 1 cyberdeck to another cyberdeck? and if so, can you use the master cyberdeck for defenses?
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This is a funky question. I don't know that you can't, but someone more knowledgeable on Matrix stuff will have to answer this one... because more importantly, I think what the actual benefits are would have to be laid out.
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well I just tried to apply real IT stuff, since a cyberdeck is a computer then 1 or more can pool resources together =)
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can you slave 1 cyberdeck to another cyberdeck? and if so, can you use the master cyberdeck for defenses?
Practically speaking, no. When you use a device to form your persona, the device's icon disappears and your persona icon is formed using the attributes of the device you're using (not any device slaved to it). Your persona is derived from the device you use to form it; it's not the device itself. Note that your cyberdeck is still "online" for practical purposes--devices slaved to it still benefit from its Firewall and so forth, it just can't be seen or interacted with in any way that's separate from interacting with your persona.
If you had a cyberdeck that wasn't being used to form a persona with its wireless on, you could slave that to a high Firewall commlink. It's essentially a really really expensive iPad at this point. But the idea of leaving wireless on, unattended cyberdecks on your desk seems...questionable.
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what if you have 2 datajacks and both connected to cyberdecks - and those 2 cyberdecks are connected as well, what happens when you form your persona then? what can you do with both devices while in AR, cold and hot sim mode?
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what if you have 2 datajacks and both connected to cyberdecks - and those 2 cyberdecks are connected as well, what happens when you form your persona then? what can you do with both devices while in AR, cold and hot sim mode?
I assume when you say the decks are connected, you mean that one is slaved to the other.
If you use the master to form your persona, the slave is still slaved to the master deck (just like a friend's gun would still be slaved to your cyberdeck). It is not slaved to your persona. The master's icon is essentially gone, although its processing power remains.
If you use the slaved deck to form your persona, the slaved deck is still (technically) slaved, but its icon is gone, so this is much more in the realm of theory than practical application. Your persona's stats are derived from whatever device you actually use to form it, so you're not protected in any fashion by the master device's stats.
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would I be able to use both cyberdecks for running programs?
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would I be able to use both cyberdecks for running programs?
No. You get the attributes (ASDF, program slots, etc.) of the deck you use to form your persona and only that deck. Again, your persona is derived from a single source. You can tinker with that source by adding modules and so forth, but you can't daisy chain devices to create a ultra-persona. I think there's an example of that happening at some point in fiction, but I'll chalk that up to artistic license.
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hmmm,.. so I dive in VR,..see my other cyberdeck icon and use a matrix action to access it and run the programs via control device matrix action. If I ran an armor and agent program on that cyberdeck, the agent persona would materialize and use the other cyberdeck's condition monitor and would get benefit from the armor program right?( and use the 2nd cyberdeck's attributes as well ).
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First off, congratulations for being rich enough to own two cyberdecks!
Armor gives "you" +2 dice to resist Matrix damage, so exactly how that would interact with an unattended agent is up to the GM. I'd say no since the agent's persona is actually distinct from any persona derived from the cyberdeck, but there's some grey there. If you were running Armor and an agent out of one deck, I wouldn't give the agent the +2 dice then either, so I don't see a need to do so when you're not there. There are a few risks inherent with this plan. First, it's going to be hard to get your agent to follow you anywhere. He needs to generate his own marks to enter a host and he's going to be racking up his own OS. Presumably you and both your decks are in the same room (unless your unattended, wireless on deck is REALLY unattended), so the Trace Icon that's much easier to perform on the agent will lead folks to you.
TLDR: This is a very expensive way of making yourself more vulnerable.
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hmmm, how come the agent cant use my own marks? Btw can the agent block attacks directed at my persona on VR mode? If there are 2 deckers diving, then one can shield the other if things get hot, right?
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Agents are their own personas
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Yes they are, but i don't see any reason for a program not to use the same recognition keys as the owner and where in the core book does it say that an agent persona has to have a unique recognition key?If I Iaunch 2( or 1 if it follows the common/hacking program rule) agents on my cyberdeck, what difference will it make using the same agent software from a remote accessed cyberdeck? it is autonomous,it has its own computer use, cybercombat and hacking skills( you can buy up to rating 4 on chargen ) - im pretty sure the agent following my persona hopping into a host from a grid would be a piece of cake.
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One decker can't shield another decker in the sense that you can "take a data spike" in the same way you could "take a bullet" for another guy. The only thing in the game that I can think of that functions that way is Protecting the Principle (R&G), which is meat world only.
Hopping a grid? Sure. Getting a mark on a host so your agent can follow you in? That's much trickier.
Marks can't be shared (see page 236). The same page makes it clear that every persona (which an agent is) has its own, unique recognition keys. Since a mark lasts until the persona that places it reboots, having shared marks would create a tangle of rules of deckers swapping marks and rebooting to clear their OS.
Your marks are specific and connected to your persona and whatever you’ve marked, so you can’t just give them out for others to place or transfer them to other people.
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i got it figured out:
1. Use control device on the external cyberdeck and run the agent program
2. Use the Send Message (Simple Action) to send commands to the agent ( its a basic drone )
3. It can then hop grids for free( If my lifestyle has the subscription ) or the agent would have to use Brute Force to enter the host.
4. If initiative breaks out, it will have its own initiative, but I have to send commands to it for it to do anything.
5. Since its an external cyberdeck, it will have a different OS score than mine. It will also have its own condition monitor ( the external cyberdeck ).
- Im just disappointed that you can't take a hit for your mates inside the matrix, so that means you can't specialize your persona into a tank to get attention , while your other decker buddies grab the stuff you need. The only thing you can change is the attribute on your deck. And you can't combine processing power of multiple computers like in real life load balancing on data centers. thanks again for the help guys, much appreciated =)
oh btw, if a decker also buys a control rig, can he also use drones if he has the piloting skills for it?
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Being a tanky decker means knowing how to use your Attribute swap effectively and running the right programs (and doing things that draw attention to yourself). It's certainly a valid approach, it's just different than playing a bodyguard in the meat world.
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- Can you stilluse the DODGE action even with negative initiative score?
- Does teamwork hits also add to limits?
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- Can you stilluse the DODGE action even with negative initiative score?
- Does teamwork hits also add to limits?
1. That's a oft-discussed issue. I'm not sure if Missions has an official stance on it.
2. "For each assistant that scores at least one hit, the relevant limit for the leader’s test increases by one." (p. 49).
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No, you may not use an interrupt action if that will bring you to negative initiative. Page 167 of the Core Rulebook clearly states:
"When a character uses an Inter- rupt Action, such as Full Defense, he takes an action out of turn, but only if he has enough Initiative Score left in the Combat Turn to pay the price for the action."
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The problem is that the core book also states, "Interrupt Actions occur outside the normal course of the Combat Turn and do not cost the character their Action Phase (unless they reduce their Initiative Score below 0 with their actions)," implying the negative values are possible.
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Best way to handle that is if you are already in the negatives, you can't do it, but an interrupt taking you a few points below zero aren't such a big deal (such as being down to a 9 Initiative and taking a -10 Initiative interrupt).
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The problem is that the core book also states, "Interrupt Actions occur outside the normal course of the Combat Turn and do not cost the character their Action Phase (unless they reduce their Initiative Score below 0 with their actions)," implying the negative values are possible.
So basically you are saying the rules allow infinite interrupt actions. Good to know.
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I'm merely pointing out the passages in the text that cause the debate. Personally, I'm with A4BG on this one. I like wageslaves being able to declare Full Defense. What else would they do?
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Get shot. They are wageslaves.
And while I can see how the statement you posted can be a bit confusing, when taken with the one I posted, it seems fairly clear to me, both as RAW and RAI.
Sometimes, you are just to slow to take any action, even dropping behind a desk.
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can you do a double enhanced suppression with 2 machine pistols that are ready to fire?
and while you are at it, here's a scenario:
goon 1: fire's a suppression(complex action) with an assault rifle.
**players that hit the dirt falls prone and gets -5 to initiative to avoid the rain of bullets,...however....
player A: " Ah f*ck it, lets duke it out!!!" , my character takes it ( fails his reaction + edge test, rolls for damage resistance and ticks off the damage boxes ) and goes rambo since its my turn next - " Eat this you piece of drek face!!!! " and declares that he's also firing a suppression at the goon.
** i went with the flow, and let him have his revenge, rolled some dice for effects. I made him roll another reaction+edge and he fails again, lucky for him that he still has 4 boxes on his condition monitor left. After that I let him kill the goon and end the suppression on his party, asking him "How do you kill him?"
- Okay here's the question: If for some reason that scenario gets repeated with a BBEG, would both gunners take damage on each char/npc's initiative pass? And how would I handle it if other players follow his lead and they line up and focus fire their suppression on 1 target, would that count as a teamwork test against something tough to damage? If it is possible then how do you compute damage?
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Theoretically, you could. If your machine pistol has at least 20 rounds, that is.
Now you split your dice pool. Take a free action for 'multiple attacks' and then a complex action to perform suppressive fire with both machine pistols.
Now, the results are as outlined in the last paragraph in the suppressive fire description (the description starts on page 179, the paragraph I'm talking about is on page 180).
There is no teamwork test. You simply take the highest negative dice pool from all of the various suppressive fires. Then for every zone someone is caught in, they make a Reaction + Edge test, with a -1 for each successive zone they are defending against. Damage for each zone that they do not successfully defend is the base damage of the weapon.
A sufficiently tank dude would be able to wade through an infinite amount of machine pistol suppression zones.
[EDIT: There is a sidebar on page 180 that notes what happens if your Machine Pistol (or any weapon) doesn't quite have 20 bullets in it when you do suppressive fire]
[EDIT2: In a home game, I might allow two machine pistols to combine for a single suppressive fire zone, shooting 10 rounds from each pistol in a single roll, but not for Missions]
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hmmm yeah that's what I initially thought of, but made me think then how would they fare against a tanky criter or enemy? run away and get bigger guns? Teamwork tests add limit and to dice pool, problem is suppression doesn't have any of those, so a dramatic face off wouldn't work aye.
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If you have multiple people creating overlapping fields of suppressive fire, then the person in it needs to make a series of tests detailed in the last paragraph of the section (p. 180). I'd suggest that if you're using suppressive fire on a single target, Enhanced Suppression is the way to go.
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Well, you do have to understand that some tank folks just won't get hurt by the small caliber bullets (or medium or even large calibre, depending on just how tank).
I mean, think of an actual tank. You could shoot it all day long with a pistol and never make a dent. Of course, a tank has 'hardened' armor, but in Shadowrun, we do allow non hardened armor to get pretty thick.
Even Enhanced Suppression won't do much against someone with 30+ armor if you are shooting him with non-AP Machine Pistols.
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Totally agreed. Suppressive fire becomes redundant pretty quickly. There's a long discussion to be had about optimizing it, but once you have someone under its effects, you're better served having a few other folks riddle him with 6-10 round bursts of apds/ex-ex directly.
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Suppressive fire is a great thing. but you have to remember, when you take ANY other action during the current Combat Turn suppressive fire stops.
so in this example
goon 1: fire's a suppression(complex action) with an assault rifle.
**players that hit the dirt falls prone and gets -5 to initiative to avoid the rain of bullets,...however....
player A: " Ah f*ck it, lets duke it out!!!" , my character takes it ( fails his reaction + edge test, rolls for damage resistance and ticks off the damage boxes ) and goes rambo since its my turn next - " Eat this you piece of drek face!!!! " and declares that he's also firing a suppression at the goon.
** i went with the flow, and let him have his revenge, rolled some dice for effects. I made him roll another reaction+edge and he fails again, lucky for him that he still has 4 boxes on his condition monitor left. After that I let him kill the goon and end the suppression on his party, asking him "How do you kill him?"
you handled the first portion perfectly. however, the second you state the goon with the assault rifle tries to "dodge" (not talking the interrupt action here but Rea+Edge test to get out of the way) his suppression fire ends. and your PC's continues.
basically if you want to continue suppressing each other neither of you can do any dodging or moving or anything like that. you stand there and continue to spray bullets at each other/anything that moves until the end of the Combat Turn. you do however have to resist damage each time your Initiative number comes up.
Alternatively our group plays it that if a PC with a low Initiative (1-10) who uses his only action to suppress, continues to suppress even when his initiative pass(es) are used up. so the street sam receiving the suppression fire has to resist every pass until everyone's initiative is 0 or less. Dont know if this is RAW/RAI or not, but its how we play it.
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Sorry for resurrecting something from so far upthread, but the whole thing is a pretty good read and after finishing reading through it all I wanted to weigh in on this Armor thing in particular.
Armor gives "you" +2 dice to resist Matrix damage, so exactly how that would interact with an unattended agent is up to the GM. I'd say no since the agent's persona is actually distinct from any persona derived from the cyberdeck, but there's some grey there. If you were running Armor and an agent out of one deck, I wouldn't give the agent the +2 dice then either, so I don't see a need to do so when you're not there....
Starting with the situation of one decker running one deck and and one agent, I don't see why a matrix attack on the Agent wouldn't benefit from the Armor program. For one thing, many programs simply modify ASDF stats and the agent would certainly benefit from the deck running a better firewall or whatnot. The agent is also using the same same matrix connection as you so it doesn't make sense for something like signal scrub to only reduce noise for one persona either. Both of these programs also use the "you" pronoun.
But the best argument for the Armor program specifically applying to an attack on an Agent is this: The agent doesn't really have a condition monitor of his own. Sure, his persona will defend against a Data Spike with (Agent Rating + Deckstat), but when it comes to damage resistance (where the armor program benefit applies), it really is "your" condition monitor that's under attack (the decker's. Or the deck itself if you prefer). You'll be rolling Device Rating + Firewall to resist damage, neither of which are unique to the Agent. It some ways it's like creating a second face for people to punch you in. Not that a second face matters terribly much in the non-euclidean geometry of the matrix where it's just as easy for 20 people to simultaneously punch you in the face as it is 2 people,... but you get my point.
We might make an argument that the offensive programs like Biofeedback and Hammer only apply to the decker (I'm undecided here), but I think that for damage resistance programs (Armor, Biofeedback filter, Shell, Defuse) the benefits of those programs apply at the point of the damage resistance test, which is unified for any number of persona running on the deck, not distinct and different pools like the defense tests would be for different personas.
The more tricky questions are about marks ON the agent and if/how they affect the decker persona. If an agent is marked, isn't the Deck that formed that persona also marked? (thereby allowing snoop and spoof and other trixy schemes) So if the deck is marked, isn't the decker persona now also marked? That would definitely make him non-hidden... a rude surprise if he things he's stealthing along quietly. It's tricky to be sure and there are important consequences to whatever conclusions you come up with.
In the end though, the conclusion Kincaid makes remains the same, Agents are useful tools but they introduce certain additional vulnerabilities and running a second deck for the sake of having an(other) agent is really, really inefficient and potentially counterproductive.
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Raven, that's an interesting point. I don't know that I agree.
Specifically, the text states that the Suppressive Fire continues as long as the suppressor does not 'move' or take another 'action.'.
Making a standard defense test isn't defined as an action, nor is it a 'Move'. I would agree that if you took an Interrupt Action that this would apply.
Now, I might see where you are applying a very strict definition of the word 'move'. Defense against someone shooting at you will certainly mean that you are 'moving'. But I read move in this sense to be 'changing location'. If you take a 'meter step' the you have moved. If you swivel at the waist a bit, you have not moved. Even the act of suppression requires you to 'move' as it is a series of controlled bursts in a ten meter cone. If you didn't move, if would be a continuous burst on the same spot.
Anyhow, that's my read on the RAW. How you want to interpret the RAI can be up to individuals, certainly.
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Sorry for resurrecting something from so far upthread, but the whole thing is a pretty good read and after finishing reading through it all I wanted to weigh in on this Armor thing in particular.
Armor gives "you" +2 dice to resist Matrix damage, so exactly how that would interact with an unattended agent is up to the GM. I'd say no since the agent's persona is actually distinct from any persona derived from the cyberdeck, but there's some grey there. If you were running Armor and an agent out of one deck, I wouldn't give the agent the +2 dice then either, so I don't see a need to do so when you're not there....
Starting with the situation of one decker running one deck and and one agent, I don't see why a matrix attack on the Agent wouldn't benefit from the Armor program. For one thing, many programs simply modify ASDF stats and the agent would certainly benefit from the deck running a better firewall or whatnot. The agent is also using the same same matrix connection as you so it doesn't make sense for something like signal scrub to only reduce noise for one persona either. Both of these programs also use the "you" pronoun.
But the best argument for the Armor program specifically applying to an attack on an Agent is this: The agent doesn't really have a condition monitor of his own. Sure, his persona will defend against a Data Spike with (Agent Rating + Deckstat), but when it comes to damage resistance (where the armor program benefit applies), it really is "your" condition monitor that's under attack (the decker's. Or the deck itself if you prefer). You'll be rolling Device Rating + Firewall to resist damage, neither of which are unique to the Agent. It some ways it's like creating a second face for people to punch you in. Not that a second face matters terribly much in the non-euclidean geometry of the matrix where it's just as easy for 20 people to simultaneously punch you in the face as it is 2 people,... but you get my point.
We might make an argument that the offensive programs like Biofeedback and Hammer only apply to the decker (I'm undecided here), but I think that for damage resistance programs (Armor, Biofeedback filter, Shell, Defuse) the benefits of those programs apply at the point of the damage resistance test, which is unified for any number of persona running on the deck, not distinct and different pools like the defense tests would be for different personas.
The more tricky questions are about marks ON the agent and if/how they affect the decker persona. If an agent is marked, isn't the Deck that formed that persona also marked? (thereby allowing snoop and spoof and other trixy schemes) So if the deck is marked, isn't the decker persona now also marked? That would definitely make him non-hidden... a rude surprise if he things he's stealthing along quietly. It's tricky to be sure and there are important consequences to whatever conclusions you come up with.
In the end though, the conclusion Kincaid makes remains the same, Agents are useful tools but they introduce certain additional vulnerabilities and running a second deck for the sake of having an(other) agent is really, really inefficient and potentially counterproductive.
Fair points re: armor. This is all very much "at my table" so I'm always open to being convinced otherwise.
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Raven, that's an interesting point. I don't know that I agree.
Specifically, the text states that the Suppressive Fire continues as long as the suppressor does not 'move' or take another 'action.'.
Making a standard defense test isn't defined as an action, nor is it a 'Move'. I would agree that if you took an Interrupt Action that this would apply.
Now, I might see where you are applying a very strict definition of the word 'move'. Defense against someone shooting at you will certainly mean that you are 'moving'. But I read move in this sense to be 'changing location'. If you take a 'meter step' the you have moved. If you swivel at the waist a bit, you have not moved. Even the act of suppression requires you to 'move' as it is a series of controlled bursts in a ten meter cone. If you didn't move, if would be a continuous burst on the same spot.
Anyhow, that's my read on the RAW. How you want to interpret the RAI can be up to individuals, certainly.
well i guess an argument could be made either way.... and ive never really questioned the "dodge test means your moving means suppression stops" rule vocally (mentally yes but hey, at our table what GM says goes unless proved otherwise by rule/ruling by higher powers) But i would say that if the guy wants to make that Rea+Edg test to evade/hit the dirt etc that is considered moving and his suppression would end (which i dont think that point is in contention between the two of us) if he wants to continue to suppress he would just stand there and take damage as per suppressive fire rules.
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Fair points re: armor. This is all very much "at my table" so I'm always open to being convinced otherwise.
Gotcha. In any case it's not a central issue for the game, but I wanted to float my understanding on that point and see if it held any water under the scrutiny of the many. When something like this comes up I like to put my own ideas in the rodeo to see if anything comes loose.
I am curious on your opinion regarding the marks thing. First, I am in agreement that a Decker would not share his marks with an agent any more than a Technomancer would share marks with his sprite. After all they are all different persona and would have different matrix recognition keys, and at least for host access, the simple workaround is to simply unload the agent program and then reload it after you enter the host.
But what if the agent gets marked in the course of his duties? Esp for an agent less than rating 6, it could easily have a lower defense against Matrix perception and even Hack on the Fly as well, so having your agent spotted and marked it's not exactly a corner case, it's actually a rather likely scenario for anyone using an agent a lot.
So if an marked Agent is marked, I'm thinking that mark also applies to the source of the agents persona (i.e. the deck)?? Try as I might I can't see any way around this.
If so, all the normal device exploits could be applied to the deck running the agent, and If the deck is marked, then the decker must be marked as well... Meaning he will be also be spotted by whoever marked the agent.... And simply unloading the agent should probably not be an easy out for shedding that mark (lest many loopholes and rule exploits spawn from it).
If this paradigm is right, then it really illuminates the vulnerability of running an agent, especially a low-to mid rating one, which is all you can really get at chargen without the Restricted Gear PQ. Granted they're tireless and persistent, which is their greatest advantage but if they're only throwing 8-12 dice and defending with similar pools then using them for much more than constant matrix perception is pretty dangerous.
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(as always, answers are just imo)
I see where you're coming from, but I'm not sure I completely agree. My quibbles are differences that probably mean more in theory than they do in practice. The master/slave relationship and marks running upstream is a very specific type of relationship. Going off of pages 216/233, a slave is a device and an agent is, of course, not a device but rather a persona. So marking an agent would not grant a mark on the deck (or decker persona, depending on how exactly you wanted to interpret that). That said, I agree with your general conclusion that getting your agent marked sucks for you. A Trace Icon test will lead them back to you, if they get converged upon, it's your deck that's taking the damage GOD doles out (not to mention the kick team), and so forth.
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Well, that's why I asked. :)
I appreciate the difference of opinion. As you may have guessed, I'm not entirely sold on that line of thinking in the first place. I felt like I was following the most logical path, but I really wasn't sure I liked where it was leading. You're right of course about the master-slave thing, but the 2 icons derived from 1 device relationship is unique to deckers and their agents so I wasn't sure what other paradigm to apply.
Perhaps I was giving the mark on the agent too much leeway to exploit and interfere with the deck. If we can say that the deck Icon is only subsumed by the decker persona (and not agent persona) then we end up with a Agent persona that is not really an avenue to exploit the deck directly, but only to trace its connection. That limitation seems a bit counterintuitive to me right now, but the mechanics and balance seem to work a little better that way and I'm all for that.
I will work on stretching my brain till it wraps around this new paradigm. Thanks for the feedback.