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[SR5] Data Trails?

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Kincaid

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« Reply #150 on: <05-27-15/1119:14> »
On p.18 the book talks about how DNI (from trodes - I assume datajacks also work) can add sense of touch, smell and taste to AR and also act as your input instead of gloves. I noted that audio and video are explicitly not mentioned there, it even talks about trodes interacting with your glasses and headphones... I always thought that DNI can add to all of your senses, including sight and hearing. Is that wrong?

No, it's all five senses.  Page 18 discusses the difference between AR and DNI, which is the addition of touch, smell, and taste to the Matrix experience, which is why those three were specified.  For obvious reasons, those three senses are also the ones that require their own sensitivity settings.
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Golyo

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« Reply #151 on: <05-27-15/1123:38> »
FAQ complex form: Computer + Int?
Every other complex form is Software + Resonance, but the aforementioned one. It's strange that there is no Software skill needed for threading this form.

Fedifensor

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« Reply #152 on: <05-27-15/1159:28> »
Decker on the cheap?

Evotech Himitsu - Data Processing 1, Firewall 2, Sleaze 5 (11000)
Attack Dongle 1 to 6 (3000 x rating x rating)
Device Modification - Add Module (500)
Cyberdeck Module - Program Carrier (900)

Minimum cost (with Attack Dongle 1) - 15400 nuyen
Device stats - A1, S5, D1, F2,  plus one hardwired program of your choice (probably Virtual Machine).  An absolute bargain!

Mid-range cost (with Attack Dongle 3) - 39400 nuyen
Device stats - A3, S5, D1, F2,  plus one hardwired program of your choice.  More effective than the only cyberdeck you can get for that amount of nuyen (the Radio Shack PCD-500).

Maximum cost (with Attack Dongle 6) - 120400 nuyen
Device stats - A6, S5, D1, F2,  plus one hardwired program of your choice.  You're probably better off buying a Little Hornet or C-K analyst and modding that, but still a passable option.

Note that with Virtual Machine, you can run two programs to boost your stats further.  Decryption + Stealth can put you on par with some of the higher-end decks (though your Firewall and Data Processing remain horrible).  A good, cheap system for an AR decker.

EDIT:  The book says it's (Rating)2 x 3000 nuyen, which could either be rating x 2 or rating squared.

EDIT2:  Those in the know are saying it is rating squared.  Prices adjusted.
« Last Edit: <05-27-15/1644:15> by Fedifensor »

Kincaid

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« Reply #153 on: <05-27-15/1203:46> »
Attack and Sleaze dongles cost (Rating)2 x 3,000, so a Rating 6 Attack dongle runs 36,000.
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Zweiblumen

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« Reply #154 on: <05-27-15/1250:54> »
Attack and Sleaze dongles cost (Rating)2 x 3,000, so a Rating 6 Attack dongle runs 36,000.

Wouldn't it have been clearer to just make it (Rating x 6000)?
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Medicineman

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« Reply #155 on: <05-27-15/1259:04> »
no , its an old Tradition (IIRC since War ! ) to square the Cost of Comlinks,Progs & Matrix Stuff especially High Rating Stuff !

with a traditional Dance
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prionic6

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« Reply #156 on: <05-27-15/1311:24> »
It's still pretty cheap (I assume it's not meant to be rating squared...) but I'd suggest investing the 90000 for a Little Hornet.

edit: It would actually make sense to square the rating to keep high rating addons an uncommon option... And then it makes sense to write it that way, it's just a mistake with the PDF production that it's not in superscript...
« Last Edit: <05-27-15/1314:36> by prionic6 »

TheDai

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« Reply #157 on: <05-27-15/1327:52> »
It will take me a while to read through everything, but as "that guy who basically hoped for an updated Version of Unwired" the echoes and complex forms were really underwhelming. And with Fading Values as glorious as ever, it feels for me that not a single one of them is worth taking damage to the face. But maybe my imagination is just not big enough. When it comes to echoes, I find them not really interesting enough to but them with 13/16/19/22 ... Karma, except for the non-optional Skinlink.

Some new toys for deckers. And some quite interesting qualities.

Other than that a lot of fluff, which I only just began to read. But so far it seems to be good.

So ... is this all TM's will get in 5th Ed. ? If yes, I'll have to talk to my table how to kill mine off in the most glorious fashion and start a Decker.
If not, any news regarding TM's in the future?

Regards,
TheDai
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Top Dog

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« Reply #158 on: <05-27-15/1343:02> »
So ... is this all TM's will get in 5th Ed. ? If yes, I'll have to talk to my table how to kill mine off in the most glorious fashion and start a Decker.
If not, any news regarding TM's in the future?
They did say a few pages back in this topic that there would be an e-book with further TM options.

~~

On the dongle: if it was rating squared it'd be 106k, not 36k. But yeah, if it's Rating * 2 * 3k, why not just say *6k? Weird.

Kincaid

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« Reply #159 on: <05-27-15/1400:05> »
TMs have an ebook in the pipeline.  I haven't seen it, so I can't say what's in it (plus, there's the NDA thing).

A quick note on content.

Say you're planning a book about the Matrix and you have a page count of 184.  That number is firm.  Things to include:
1) Stuff about how the world at large and the Matrix interact. Make the Matrix an interesting and compelling place for non-hackers.
2) Stuff for deckers.
3) Stuff for technomancers.
4) Stuff you promised in the core book (see: archives).

Technomancers are awesome and very cool, but are also fairly rare.  That doesn't mean they don't deserve love--they do!--but it does mean that when you're weighing how to allocate pages in a book that is about all things Matrix-y, you can't give them the lion's share at the expense of the other topics (firm page count).  Another balancing act is how much old stuff gets updated versus how much totally new stuff to include.  If the gun mods in Run & Gun had simply been a rehash of 4e, there would have been a lot of people who were psyched--they got to remake their favorite custom gun!  And I totally get that.  On the other hand, there would have been people who would have wondered why we once again have FA sniper rifles and why they're paying full price for a rules conversion.  And I totally get that too.  You have to play to both audiences, which means you can't totally satisfy one.

Looking at the above four items, let's think about how easily each translates to a pdf product, where page count isn't really a factor.
1) This would be more of a Neo-Anarchist's Guide to 2075 type of product.  Which would be awesome, but gets away from the Matrix focus.  Including it in DT gives the product broader appeal and utility to non-hackers.  The Matrix plays an vital role in everyday life in the Sixth World, and finding a way to drive that point home is important to the setting.
2) Deckers are the original and iconic users of the Matrix, so this would be an odd choice.
3) Of the hacking archetypes, this is the less popular one.  TMs exist outside of a lot of the Matrix concepts, so they often require (more) extensive explanation, making a page count-free format more inviting.
4) Given that you were promised archives, this isn't really an option.

I totally get it when people say they want whatever they play to get more attention; I'm the same way.  When you get the 500-page guide to Jack-of-all-Trades/Mastermind characters, you'll know who to thank/blame.  But selling that guide would be tricky since not everyone's tastes align with mine (Philistines!).  Simply going off the lengths of products like Assassin's Primer, I'd guess that this actually is the way of maximizing TM-related pages.

Re: Dongles: Their original price was too low and there was some discussion about how to re-price them.  I'll dig through stuff to see if that's a 2 or a ^2.
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prionic6

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« Reply #160 on: <05-27-15/1421:03> »
Oh, the Archives / Foundations stuff is great, btw.! Possibly my favourite part of the book.

Sandorian

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« Reply #161 on: <05-27-15/1441:28> »
Say you're planning a book about the Matrix and you have a page count of 184.  That number is firm. 
Why just 184 pages? Other core-rulebooks contain about 230 - 250 pages? 60 - 70 pages should be enough to write something about TMs.

Technomancers are awesome and very cool, but are also fairly rare.  That doesn't mean they don't deserve love--they do!--but it does mean that when you're weighing how to allocate pages in a book that is about all things Matrix-y, you can't give them the lion's share at the expense of the other topics (firm page count). ...
TMs are rare, bute AI-Characters are common? I don't think so. If there's a topic for a PDF-DLC its "AI-Charakters".

I totally get it when people say they want whatever they play to get more attention; I'm the same way.  When you get...
Thats true, but a matrix-CORE-Rulebook should contain all stuff necessary to play the core-character-classes introduced in the SR5 mainbook. The TM is of these classes the AI-Charakter is not.

To cut it short: Data-Trails contains a lot of cool stuff, but its not a core-rulebook, its an incomplete core-rulebook which needs a DLC to work for all characters. Until anyone tells me the Technomancer-PDF contains about 150 - 200 pages of new stuff or its free for all  who purchased data-trails it seems to me, that CGL just wants to sell two products where there should be only one.
« Last Edit: <05-27-15/1445:14> by Sandorian »

Fedifensor

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« Reply #162 on: <05-27-15/1508:24> »
Another fun trick - modify your commlink to add a cyberdeck module for a hardwired agent program (or buy the Nixdorf Sekretar) and add a Sleaze dongle (or buy the Evotech Himitsu).  Even if you can't deck, your agent can do a limited amount of decking on your behalf.

Now, the big question - can you use a commlink dongle on a RCC?  For that matter, can you use a commlink dongle on a cyberdeck?  Both should have the universal data port...

Kincaid

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« Reply #163 on: <05-27-15/1514:52> »
Dongles are commlink-only.  Simply having a UDP isn't enough--that would create some weird combinations. 
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jackiepaper

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« Reply #164 on: <05-27-15/1608:23> »
Think of it this way. AIs got close to 15K words dedicated to them and were easily one of the longer sections of Data Trails, we have a digital supplement for AIs in the pipe, but it's more about characters than mechanics. I might try and sneak a few more advanced programs and qualities in there, but Data Trails will basically be the definitive rule book for AIs until the rigger book (and that'll really just be more stuff for them to drive around in).

The TM supplement will be at least 35K words and is meant to be the "be all, end all" for technomancers in 5E. Trust me, the lack of print means we can fit anything and everything in even if we go over our pre-approved word count. (and we will)

I don't really know why DT only has 184 pages. I've heard that the cost to sales ratio for printing those huge full color corebooks isn't great. For every person who wants absolutely everything in a single core book, there are a bunch more who look at a giant core book and go "So i'm just gonna ignore 70% of this book and i don't know if $60 is worth that. Can you just throw me a PDF of just ..these... rules."

I think aesthetics and theme are also part of the reason. Data Trails is a Matrix dedicated book. You may feel like it's obvious to flesh out Technomancers more because of that(and we did), but you have to remember that TMs are essentially the Technological equivalent of Dual-natured beings. You can't really flesh them out without addressing the nature of living in two worlds simultaneously. The TM stuff in Data Trails covers the purely Matrix elements of being a Technomancer(Resonance Realms/Wells/Searches), because of the "all Matrix" format of the book. The TM supplement will cover a much wider scope and will step out of the Matrix at times, which would've made it feel odd in a purely Matrix book. 

On the flip-side, AIs needed to be fixed/fleshed out. You may not agree with that notion, but you might want to keep a few important things in mind.

1.) Data Trails is a purely Matrix book and AIs are purely Matrix Entities. Even when interacting with the physical world they have to do it through the lens of the Matrix. They are also readily available as player characters so they get a higher priority than something like Sprites even though Sprites are also Matrix entities.

2.) AIs are a much bigger part of the 6th World than they've ever been and their write-up in Data trails was meant to reflect that.  Puck explains how their roles in society is changed/growing since the Sojourner incident and  Xiao-Renraku vs Horizon. Pulsar and his digital rights group have pushed AIs into the light.  Even if the actual number of TMs is currently higher, Technomancy is only active in a small percentage of the metahuman population. AIs, on the other hand, have a much higher "birth rate" than technomancers, (or even regular humans) and the projections from Unwired guessed that AIs would be more populous than metahumans(let alone the technomancer minority) in a very short amount of time.

3.) AIs have been around since the '40s (technically Mirage was first developed back in '29, but i'm counting from when it "woke up"). They're a huge part of the Shadowrun lore and have been around a lot longer than Technomancers. (they may even be (partially) responsible for the creation of the Otaku and their subsequent evolution into Technomancers) 4E made a lot of steps towards making AIs more common in the 6th world and the goal in 5E was to make them more playable while addressing how the new Matrix has caused them to evolve.

With CFD being a major plot point in 5E we also felt it was important to make sure we didn't keep running a major story arc without proper rules for AIs (they are kind of the focus).

And yeah, the pricing for commlink gears is meant to be squared. I don't know why they didn't use superscript (though it may have to do with superscript being set aside for footnotes markers).
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