Shadowrun
Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: TheWanderingJewels on <06-02-11/0909:34>
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is there a place to DL a copy of this in PDF. My old one has fallen apart and my new players haven't dealt with the bugs really as of yet
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And they should be immensely happy for that :)
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http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1414
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2766
-k
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thank you :D
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Bastards, the lot of you...
I want to deal with bugs and 2050 and all that good stuff!
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I still wish bugs had never really become part of the common man's knowledge, because you could still get new players with them. Nothing was as creepy as insect spirits, even the crazy stuff in the Renraku Arcology.
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well I'll be filing of the names and the organization, but otherwise not changing the script....updating the bug stats to 4th to give the players a real run for the money
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All the more reason to stock up on the most toxic, horrifying, desecrating to Gaia Insect Spray you can find!
And why that "Crop Duster" plane from Unfriendly Skies is so damned useful!
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well...they ran out of thier FAB III supply when they ran up against my 'constructs' ina adventurea little while back. and most of them know of the bugs in a vague manner. Most of them won't see it coming
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All the more reason to stock up on the most toxic, horrifying, desecrating to Gaia Insect Spray you can find!
And why that "Crop Duster" plane from Unfriendly Skies is so damned useful!
Astral Hazing.
Fuck what the teams mage says, i am safe from bugs. Period. And if one of them gets uppity, i'll hug him!
Furthermore, due to the board cutting of the thread title in the overview, i always read "The Universal Brothel" for some reason <.<
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I still wish bugs had never really become part of the common man's knowledge, because you could still get new players with them. Nothing was as creepy as insect spirits, even the crazy stuff in the Renraku Arcology.
I dunno. Maybe this is the young punk in me speaking, but I found those swarms of robo-bees that cause your blood to boil absolutley terrifying.
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Furthermore, due to the board cutting of the thread title in the overview, i always read "The Universal Brothel" for some reason <.<
You know, if they had gone that route, they might have gotten even more people.
And funding to boot!
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*nods*
and some people would probably have gone even though they knew they were going to get screwed and by what . .
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There's a kink for everyone...
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Should I point out that Bull's old partner Johnny 99 was married to a Rat Shaman who became a willing host to a Mantis spirit? :)
Of course, we played up the Mantid angle that they were more interested in bugs than Metahumanity... And because she was a willing host, she retained her personality. (IN later years, I imagined it as a T'okra vs the regular Bug's Go'auld from Stargate SG-1)
Bull
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Should I point out that Bull's old partner Johnny 99 was married to a Rat Shaman who became a willing host to a Mantis spirit? :)
Of course, we played up the Mantid angle that they were more interested in bugs than Metahumanity... And because she was a willing host, she retained her personality. (IN later years, I imagined it as a T'okra vs the regular Bug's Go'auld from Stargate SG-1)
Bull
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3573/3572109587_0a173804a9_z.jpg?zz=1)
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IIRC, he later joined their fraternity.
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And now he's a tv viking.
Everything keeps rolling along.
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Considering I played Football for 12 years (Plus 8 years of Baseball and 4 years of Wrestling)...
Yeah, I pretty much am Ogre. I actually will do the Nerds! thing at cons. :)
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I'm pretty sure retaining personality isn't possible by the rules but it sure was included in at least a couple of the novels. I hated that really, took away some of the creepy.
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Well, since it's really a merging of the insect spirit and its host, then I can see the personality being retained if the host was fully accepting of the spirit (which tends to be a case in the Mantis hunters, IMO).
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Well, since it's really a merging of the insect spirit and its host, then I can see the personality being retained if the host was fully accepting of the spirit (which tends to be a case in the Mantis hunters, IMO).
Or is it just the Spirit being able to read the mind of the person and being *REALLY* good at faking it?
Me, I'm buying up insecticide in bulk.
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Well, considering that personality is nothing more than a process based on past data stored in the memory, they just have to run the current situation through the person's "software" to get the correct result.
Of course, that's the technical explanation that disregards the person's "soul". ;)
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Memory, soul, mind, body, spirit, what is any of that? "Do humans dream of ethereal sheep?"
EDIT: And thus I circle back to one of the origins of Cyberpunk. Wow.
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The fluff for SR has always indicated that good merges can, have, and do pass themselves off as the people they merged with, e.g. Franklin Yeats and Anne Penchyk.
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Theresa Montgomery.
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Damien Knight.
Oops, sorry, that's supposed to be hush-hush... ;)
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It becomes an interesting question, and one that starts opening up philosophical and metaphysical questions...
1) We know that Good Merges can access memories and mimic personalities... So teh first question raised is is the original personality, the soul, the essence of the person destroyed in the merge, or just subsumed? And can the essence/mind/soul/whatever be left alone, if the spirit and host are willing? So in essence, you have the original host and the bug simply sharing a body, with two distinct, sperate entities?
2) WHere do you draw the line at? If the merge has all the memories and personality of the original host... Is it still the host? Can it be the host?
It's a weird area. Bug's are, 99% of the time, simply monsters, and I'm cool with that. Same way I like my vampires to be monsters. I don't usually like them to be tragic, misunderstood, or sparkly. They're mosquitos with human bodies. Very, VERY rare exceptions are ok, and they work because they are exceptions. I accept Angel in the Buffyverse because he's semi unique. In a similar vein, Drizzt was initially kinda cool because he was unique, a good Dark Elf. Once there are dozens or hundreds or whatever of them running a round, they're no longer unique, and just boring munchkins. :)
So rambling, sleep deprived answer is that in my game (and the way I see bugs) is that Mantids are the sole exception to the bugs. But they also have totally different agendas than the standard bug, and they create more Mantids in a different way from the other bugs. So that's fine. They can merge with a willing host to create a split personality Bug that's the combination of both the soul of the human and the spirit of the bug. They don't always do it this way, but it's their preference. Their goal is to hunt, and tehy find it more efficient when they can draw on their host for help.
Regular bug spirits, on the other hand, just want to breed and multiply. Humanity is merely a source of physical bodies and food. When they manage a good merge, they destroy the soul of the host. They can access it's memories and attempt to mimic it, but it's a copy. It's a pod person. Sometimes tehy can "blend in", but it's rare. And usually only happens if the merger happens with someone who doesn't have every close family.
Bull
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That's the inherent problem of having the "exception", they sometimes are more interesting than others in their respective universes, so of course that everyone ELSE wants to be like them. We all want to "be like Mike"...so to speak. And it also can make things difficult when you try and say make a character and you have one or two similarities with an "exception". I got ragged on by a guy with some sort of chip on his shoulder when I played an elf who used two swords. First words out of his mouth was "oh, so he's a Drizzt wannabe?".
*Rolls eyes*
And don't get me started on sparkly vampires....
But as far as bugs go, to me they represent one of the true universal threats in the SR universe, along with Blood and Toxic mages. And I want them to stay that way, period. Bugs to me are not evil in the classic sense, but they are true to their natures: which is to eat and breed. Morality dosent enter into it, they simply are. So for us mere (meta)humans, they have to be treated like any other invasive species, taken out before they do the same to us. And the fact they have been so damn quiet lately....
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Mantids are just smarter and more ruthless and dangerous than other bugs—IRL, too*. So it makes sense that they are the ones who seem to be most adept at and work the hardest to mimic the hosts' memories and personalities the best. Then again, Yeats was a Wasp spirit. There is a whole chapter in Threats that goes into how all of the bugs seemed to be focusing more on good merges and such. That was sent in 2057.
Point is: Metahumanity has found new ways to hunt and kill these things, with KE even having the balls to regularly go to _their home metaplane_ to assassinate queens, etc. But this is a war, and if the bugs don't figure out new ways to survive in this world they will be in trouble. Part of the EXPINT chapter of Spy Games addresses this fact in-character.
* I once "fought" a small mantis several years ago. I'm a big guy (there's a photo of me in my twitter feed) and I basically sat on one (with my leg) that I didn't see was chilling out on my bed. Something was poking me and so I got up a few seconds later, and realized what I had landed on. It just looked at me—and it looked pissed. I was not about to mess with something that I put more than a few pounds of weight on and just took it, so the two of us chased each other around the room before I finally caught it and dumped it outside.
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Mimicking someone is fine with RAW, still being that someone is right out, IMO.
As for Ms Montgomery, she was pretending and the shaman who made the deal with Dirk had no intention of fulfilling his end of the bargain.
And personally, the fact that they completely consume and replace the victim is part of the creepy factor, like Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
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SO here's the question...
I "kill you" by possessing you and taking you over. But now I have all your memories, your thoughts, your feelings. If I think I am you... Who's to say I'm not?
You end up with a really weird little philosophy question there about what defines self, what makes a person a person. Not an easy question, and no ready answer.
Of course, by the rules? You're an NPC. Your metaphysical state of being doesn't really matter at that point.
:)
Bull
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Part of me doesn't want to open that can of worms.
The other half kicked that half in the nuts and called it foul names for not treating SR players like grown-ups and just discussing it so that we can discuss totems, gods, mentors, and so on like adults.
*shrugs*
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The other half kicked that half in the nuts and called it foul names for not treating SR players like grown-ups and just discussing it so that we can discuss totems, gods, mentors, and so on like adults.
I don't think we've been reading the same forums if you think SR Fans are acting like grown-ups. :P
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Heh.
It's not really something that has an answer, and I like it that way. Shadowrun doesn't need to have everything always spelled out for the players... A little mystery, a few questions that are left "unknowable" simply enhances the game, and lets players handle things their own way.
Also... Frag RAW :) Never let the rules get in the way of good storytelling ;)
(And god, I loath the term "RAW".)
Like I said, for our old game, we treated the Bugs and the Mantids as similar but slightly different creatures. The Bugs kill you, eat your soul, and replace you. the Mantids... Don't. Usually. Often. Ok maybe sometimes. But are you sure?
Not knowing for certain? Never knowing for certain? Now that's fraggin' creepy.
Bull
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Not knowing for certain? Never knowing for certain? Now that's fraggin' creepy.
Bull
You want fraggin' creepy?
Have *THEM* not even know what the right answer is.
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I don't think we've been reading the same forums if you think SR Fans are acting like grown-ups. :P
Heh, behave Can. :) I always act like a grown up. Especially when I'm running around rolling dice, waving Nerf guns around, wearing rubber ears and tusks, and pretending to be an Ork.
(Having calm, rational, mature discussions is a great thing, and something we should do more often on the internet. Forgetting that at the end of the day, we're playing "Make Believe" is something that we shouldn't. :))
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You want fraggin' creepy?
Have *THEM* not even know what the right answer is.
Wait, wait...
*THEM* Them? Or *THEM They? Or Them Us? or Them You?
Which Them are we talking about?
Oh crap. Now I'm confused, creeped out, and paranoid. thanks CR!
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I don't think we've been reading the same forums if you think SR Fans are acting like grown-ups. :P
Heh, behave Can. :) I always act like a grown up. Especially when I'm running around rolling dice, waving Nerf guns around, wearing rubber ears and tusks, and pretending to be an Ork.
(Having calm, rational, mature discussions is a great thing, and something we should do more often on the internet. Forgetting that at the end of the day, we're playing "Make Believe" is something that we shouldn't. :) )
Was more inferring to the immature nature of the Internet due to the Eternal September rather than any individual person.
You want fraggin' creepy?
Have *THEM* not even know what the right answer is.
Wait, wait...
*THEM* Them? Or *THEM They? Or Them Us? or Them You?
Which Them are we talking about?
Oh crap. Now I'm confused, creeped out, and paranoid. thanks CR!
Glad to be of assistance. Now you're in the proper mood for writing out adventures from the point of view of a Mr. Johnson or Shadowrunners. ;D
"So, is Jessie still in there, or did you eat her soul?"
"Well, most Insect Spirits eat the soul and inhabit the body, we try to merge with the soul and... You know what, screw it. Truth time: We aren't sure ourselves."
"Wait, what?"
"That's right, we don't have all the answers either. It might be her in here with me, or just residual and muscle memories that are influencing my responses, such as being this frank as Jersey Jessie would normally be, and I normally wouldn't."
"Sooooooooooooooooooooo..."
"Fragged if we know."
"... ... ... I'm going to shoot you in the face now. Many times. I'm not sure when I'm going to stop, in fact. Probably when I run out of ammunition."
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Now transpose that into a game where we often had only 2 players and a GM, and our characters got heavily involved with and invested in personal lives. To the point of having wives, children, families, NPCs that we'd have sacrificed our own characters for (and at one point, Johnny did. Fuck you Harlequin. Fuck you very much.)
Now, have one of Johnny's wives decide to willing merge with a Mantid. Now try and decide if Becky is really in there or not.
Yeah. It was interesting. Came in handy while we were trapped in Bug City though. Nice to have a gang of angry Mantids you could occasionally call on for help. Just don;t sleep with them. :)
Bull
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Also... Frag RAW :) Never let the rules get in the way of good storytelling ;)
Indeed.
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Also... Frag RAW :) Never let the rules get in the way of good storytelling ;)
Indeed.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own." (http://youtu.be/W8qcccZy03s)
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*wargls*
i overlooked a complete page of postings <.<
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Is the catalyst pdf better than the rpgnow one? I could hardly read the rpgnow version. Can you see the "hand written" notes.
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I usually get my PDF's through Drive-Thru Games and never have problems with the quality. Try this:
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/2766/Shadowrun-The-Universal-Brotherhood?it=1
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Drive-thru has the same problem. Its a scan and its pretty terrible.
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I have an original hardcopy. What part are you having trouble with? Maybe I can transcribe it for you.
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Its a lot of the book. Especially the "hand written" parts.
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My drivethru copy is very clear and easy to make out, even the hand written part despite being a scan.
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I can confirm that the drivethruRPG version is quite good. The reviews must be for an old version (one that i had) that was really hard to read. Thanks everyone! Would recommend.