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Matrix wish list

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K3y

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« Reply #15 on: <11-13-21/1255:08> »
Hi, everyone, I am not new but is the first time I post (and my English is quite bad)
This is what I would like to see (in general not new gear or rules, but clarifications):
- Examples of runs. A lot of examples, like the French rulebook and like the QuickStart box. And even more if possibile that can cover at least 90% of run in the matrix (VR and AR).
- Schemes (like flow chart) that can illustrate better the actions.
- Examples of host. From basic host to complex AAA Megacorp host.
- Clarifications about definitions: device and electronic device for examples. The electronic ones have condition monitor and can be damaged but the normal device linked in the PAN?
Ok I read the matrix faq and enhancement by Banshee but in the rulebook I don't find any reference.
- Illustrations and description of the Matrix. Some time I found difficult to explain what it is. Ok, there are a lot of movies and comics but in CRB I don't find a lot of explanation and so I think could be an help for GMs and players.
And:
- A streamlined optional rule for alternative/simplified matrix, so I can play with newbies without scare them. Maybe a modular system? Combat and magic is quite easy to understand and play, but matrix I found harder to play.
- New programs and gears is ok, but for me is more important to keep it easy and simple, not to slow down the game too much.
- New cards (accessory) to help build host, net and have spider and other NPC at hand

Thank you!

Xenon

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« Reply #16 on: <11-14-21/0316:37> »
Hello there K3y, welcome to the forums! :-)


- Examples of runs. A lot of examples
I helped create a few examples in the FAQ to cover most common scenarios.
Are there any specific scenarios you feel are missing (maybe I can create a few more).

 
- A streamlined optional rule for alternative/simplified matrix
if you want to simplify and handwave a lot of the complexity of the Matrix rules you can just rely on Electronics + Logic for Legal tests and Cracking + Logic for Illegal tests, versus an opposed roll of either Willpower + Firewall or Firewall x 2.

Dreamwalker

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« Reply #17 on: <11-14-21/1020:21> »
Hello (again) board,

this question finally enticed me to join and drop my two cents, so i would like to make the following suggestions:

  • Provide clarifications on perception in the matrix. (This would be my primary point to address.) Outlining what a persona perceives from (different) virtual viewpoints would be helpful to understand the interaction between the physical and the virtual world. You may want to consider and address the following questions:
    • How do real-world positions relate to matrix positions? Can you shoot at things you see in AR (maybe even through walls)? Could a persona enter a home in VR and perceive the icons representing the interior at their correct (relative) position? What are the mechanical differences between matrix perception and trace icon actions?
    • What are the requirements to perceive silent running icons? Can a security decker in VR spot the commlinks or personas of a team of shadowrunners trying to sneak around in a deserted building at 3am in the morning? It would be nice, to have more detailed guidelines on this in the source books.
    • In general, examples on how the matrix represents aspects and relations of the physical world are (imho) invaluable to form a solid understanding of the virtual world.
  • Provide details on hosts. In particular, detailed examples of host security architectures and metaphors would be very welcome.
    • How would important hosts like Grid Guide, Lone Star, Stuffer Shack, or public services look like? Clarification on matrix host structures may assist game masters and players alike to estimate the difficulty of matrix runs. E.g., by providing advice on the level of granularity of compartmentalization into different (sub-)hosts.
    • What are suggested trigger conditions to start launching IC?
    • Elaborate on what constitutes the public-facing side of a host. In general, but a few examples would be helpful as well.
  • Technomancer clarifications and additional options
    • A clarification if / to what extend technomancers use a direct neural interface would be welcome.
    • Clarification on how rebooting works for / affects technomancers would be helpful.
    • Resonance realms, tribes, streams, and probably a few selected new sprite variants, complex forms and echos would be interesting.
  • Include new gimmicks
    • Matrix-specific new qualities, equipment, and bio-/cyberware are welcome as long as they maintain game balance (particularly deckers vs. technomancers) and low mechanical complexity. E.g., options for device modifications (like odd mods from SR5) would appear preferable to entirely new sets of equipment (like custom cyberdecks).
    • A narrow and streamlined set of additional system operations covering aspects of denial of service, active defensive any-time actions, and masquerading/impersonation.
    • A few specialty IC-variants (e.g., psychotropic) or, even better, a simple outline to compose new IC variants might be interesting. Also, options to (independently) booby-trap specific icons with additional IC might add some worthwhile tension to matrix runs.
As stated before, SIN verification would be a good topic to cover in an upcoming matrix source book as well as options for digital forgery (IDs, and video/audio/simsense data). Furthermore, additional mechanical details on team-wide PANs may be a worthwhile addition to already established CRB rules.

As for fluff and story telling, details on (still) active data havens, decker groups, major recent developments, matrix clubs, major matrix players and matrix societies, etc. could provide additional insights and help building a vibrant matrix ecosystem. Also, the concept of the foundation appears highly intriguing (especially in light of previous shadowrun story arcs). An interesting question would be, if corporations have established new defenses to protect their sensitive data in the foundation.

I hope you find these suggestions helpful. Thanks for your continued effort.

Beta

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« Reply #18 on: <11-15-21/1501:11> »
I'll add a one super general wish, with some examples.

The general: information about the creation and use of AROs.  They are everywhere, right?  Some of them are graffiti, so you don't have to be someone super official to make them (but maybe the average person can't post them for everyone to see?).  They seem really handy.  But there are no rules for them.  So I'd like to know:

- how do I make one out on a grid?  How long is it apt to stay up?  (for example we want to put up a piece of graffiti along a certain corporate director's route to work that shows we have information about his private life, so it needs to be on a grid that he will see, and stay up for a little while.

- in a corporate facility, if I want something seen by the employees, do I place the ARO on the grid or in the host?  (and are the rules different?)  For example, my hacker wants a couple of minutes of quiet VR time inside a corp. facility, and wants to put up an ARO on the washroom door saying "Out of service /Facilities have been called / Please use the washroom on the 3rd or 5th floor instead" in a way that workers will see (in 5e I'd argue that this may have been in the domain of forgery, for making it look authentic.  No clue in 6e)

- We've constructed fake pics of the VP of security in a compromising position with an orc dominatrix, and want to display it over the entrance to the parking garage as people arrive in the morning (what skill we used to forge this in 6e I'm not sure, but assume we did it).  Obviously there will soon be efforts to have it erased/brought down/whatever, but we'd like to keep it up for at least half an hour.  How does someone else erase our ARO?  How do we stop them?



Tipperman  --
speechthoughtmatrix

K3y

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« Reply #19 on: <11-15-21/1639:56> »
Hello there K3y, welcome to the forums! :-)


- Examples of runs. A lot of examples
I helped create a few examples in the FAQ to cover most common scenarios.
Are there any specific scenarios you feel are missing (maybe I can create a few more).

- A streamlined optional rule for alternative/simplified matrix
if you want to simplify and handwave a lot of the complexity of the Matrix rules you can just rely on Electronics + Logic for Legal tests and Cracking + Logic for Illegal tests, versus an opposed roll of either Willpower + Firewall or Firewall x 2.

Thank you!

I am not sure if we are talking about the same faq. I miss a typical run in a host, from the beginning, to steel data or destroy something. What you see and what you are doing. The perception of the structure, hacks in real life and in matrix, a fight with Ice and spider and so on.
Then a description of an encounter, a fight and a social one, with some PC in real life and the decker who try to do some matrix job (stealthy or brutally entering the net), probably in AR so he can move and react to with happen IRL.
And then damaging devices in the PAN. Is it possibile? In CRB it doesn't seem but in the forums I read a lot about the possibility to attack a device. I would like a clear answer about this.

Thanks, this is an optional rule I thought about but didn't know if it works. Great!
« Last Edit: <11-15-21/1642:01> by K3y »

Xenon

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« Reply #20 on: <11-16-21/0851:24> »
I'll add a one super general wish, with some examples.

The general: information about the creation and use of AROs.  They are everywhere, right?
As I understand it (but it might have changed for SR6) is that an ARO is represented by a File Icon and a File Icon will either be located on a wireless enabled Device or in a Host.

Private AROs that you created only for yourself typically originates from your commlink.

Private AROs that you created but wish to share with a specific individual (for example highlighting an individual in a crowd or drawing of a line on an AR map to point of the location of the party) typically also originates from your commlink (before you send it to the recipient via the Send Message Matrix Action).

Public AROs that you wish to share with everyone walking pass a physical location (such as the neon sign above a pub or temporary graffiti or whatever) seem to originate from physical RFID tags left at that location (this is typically called geo tagging).

Observers (including yourself) seem to have the option to limit the amount of ARO spam they allow in their field of view (or even completely turn it off), so even if you littering an entire area with RFID tags displaying perverted AROs it is not guaranteed that everyone that walk pass the area will notice of them.



I am not sure if we are talking about the same faq.
I am talking about this one: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DYgYXlKQ5XUG_3R4aDbaTTcm5XeYfdjf6Kqlop1J72k/edit



And then damaging devices in the PAN. Is it possibile?
Yes, it is possible.

This is what the Data Spike action and the Tarpit action is used for.

Both of them are outsider actions so you can take them even if you don't yet have User or Admin access on the network itself.

K3y

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« Reply #21 on: <11-17-21/1723:19> »
Quote
Xenon
I am not sure if we are talking about the same faq.
I am talking about this one: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DYgYXlKQ5XUG_3R4aDbaTTcm5XeYfdjf6Kqlop1J72k/edit



And then damaging devices in the PAN. Is it possibile?
Yes, it is possible.

This is what the Data Spike action and the Tarpit action is used for.

Both of them are outsider actions so you can take them even if you don't yet have User or Admin access on the network itself.

Ok is the same faq and optional rule set.

I am sorry if I ask you once more about this, but damaging devices is the rule i don’t understand yet. ☹️ In the faq there is an explanation and new rules about, but in the rulebook is really vague.
In the Matrix paragraph it says that attack is tipically against communication devices that have condition monitor. The examples are only about com devices. And the gear section lists the electronic devices with this feature. Weapons don’t have it. I thought that probably normal devices have rfid with device rating 1. Is it right? But it is not explained clearly.
Rule as intended vs rule as written or I misunderstood the game?

Thank you once more for your patience.
This thread is very helpful and i am waiting for this new sourcebook

Finstersang

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« Reply #22 on: <11-17-21/1936:21> »
Yes, other devices like smartguns can be attacked and bricked with Matrix Attacks. Itīs quite a viable option  too: AFAIK, devices can even get from "wound penalties" from Matrix damage (i.e. users suffer a -1 Modifier for every 3 points of damage), so you donīt even need to fully brick things to annoy the opposition.

However: Since you are not the only one here confused by this, this probably warrants clarification, either via errata or by additional examples in the Matrix sourcebook. Maybe itīs another instance of change blindness between 5th and 6th Edition? 

Side note: Since "Matrix wound modifiers" are a thing now, this could serve as another angle for new Gear and Perks: Some Programms, Qualities or Complex Forms might mitigate these effects (just like Pain Tolerance in meatspace), while others may enhance them.   
« Last Edit: <11-17-21/1939:55> by Finstersang »

Banshee

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« Reply #23 on: <11-18-21/0821:25> »
Using matrix attack to damage devices will get some attention for sure.

It so much change blindness as it was left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing. I only covered specifics in the matrix chapter for commlinks, cyberdecks,  etc and assumed other gear would be covered in the gear chapter... well not so much.

As it sits I'm going to try and integrate as much of (if not all) of my FAQ into the new matrix book as I can. Just waiting to hear what chapters I get to work on yet.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
Freelancer & FAQ Committee member
Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team

MercilessMing

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« Reply #24 on: <11-18-21/1107:18> »
Quote from: K3y
I am sorry if I ask you once more about this, but damaging devices is the rule i don’t understand yet. ☹️ In the faq there is an explanation and new rules about, but in the rulebook is really vague.
In the Matrix paragraph it says that attack is tipically against communication devices that have condition monitor.

Hopefully this helps:

Quote from: SR6 CRB p.179
Typically, Matrix damage is inflicted against the
device an individual is using to access the Matrix.
Devices have a Matrix Condition Monitor equal
to [(Device Rating / 2, rounded up) + 8].
I take this to mean that all devices - cyberdecks, vending machines, jet planes, rifles, trids, etc, have a condition monitor of at least 9.  Even though it says Matrix damage is "typically" done against the device used to access the matrix, the condition monitor sentence simply says "devices" have a CM of device rating/2 +8. 

This is way too much IMO, and doesn't give enough meaningful distinction in toughness between used scratch built junk and high end custom military tech.  I'd prefer it if hackers could one-shot basic tech and have to chip away at high end stuff.  This right here could be a good place to give Used grade cyberware a disadvantage but it's not really meaningful.
« Last Edit: <11-18-21/1111:35> by MercilessMing »

K3y

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« Reply #25 on: <11-18-21/1533:53> »
I am new to Shadowrun, I started with Anarchy and then 6e, I don't know 5th edition and so I have difficulty understanding something.

So damaging weapons means destroy or weaken the functionality. I thought that via Matrix you can only damage communications and software part of the weapon (the matrix condition monitor of the smartgun) but you can still fire manually without penalty. Just pull the trigger. This changes a lot the play, I think. It is more effective

In Firing Squad there is the "weapon commlink" that has device rating 1. So if I attack a gun with weapon commlink I have to destroy 2 matrix condition monitor. Probably is better to kill directly the grunt!
« Last Edit: <11-19-21/0126:14> by K3y »

Xenon

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« Reply #26 on: <11-19-21/0356:48> »
I am new to Shadowrun, I started with Anarchy and then 6e, I don't know 5th edition and so I have difficulty understanding something.
Yeah.... Since they decided to cut many clarifying examples and (perhaps redundant) clarifying rules, 6th edition made the rules ambiguous and harder to understand (not easier as I think the intention was when they decided to reduce the word count). In many ways I guess the edition is far easier to read and understand if you already have knowledge from SR5 :-/

If it wasn't for this I would probably openly promote SR6 as the most newbie friendly edition...



So damaging weapons means destroy or weaken the functionality.
With a strict reading of the rules in SR6 (as written):

* Chapter on "Devices" does not talk about bricking, matrix damage modifiers, matrix condition monitors or device ratings. And almost the entire text talk about commlinks. Not firearms or other devices. There even didn't use to be a device rating table for devices other than Commlinks, Cyberdecks and RCCs.
* Chapter on "Personas and Attributes" does talk about bricking, matrix damage modifiers, matrix condition monitors and device ratings - but in the context of personas, commlinks and cyberdecks. Not firearms or other devices.
* Chapter on "Bricking" have the first paragraph from 5th edition, but left out the clarifying (but perhaps redundant) second paragraph that talk about firearms and other devices (other than commlink and cyberdecks). That for example firearms can no longer be fired if the firearm is bricked.


SR5 p. 228 Bricking
If a device is bricked, it stops working: batteries are drained, mechanical parts are fused or gummed up with melted internals, and so on. That said, not all devices are completely useless when bricked. A vibrosword is still sharp, a roto-drone glides to the ground on auto-gyro, a lock stays locked. The firing pin on an assault rifle might not work, but its bayonet works just fine for stabbing smug hackers. And you can’t exactly brick a katana, ne? And don’t panic when your trickedout combat bike gets bricked; it will ride again … if you know a competent technician.


In previous edition, causing matrix damage was kinda binary. Either the device was fully functional (had at least one matrix condition monitor box left) or it was 100% bricked. In 6th edition devices start to deteriorate with more matrix damage taken

SR6 p. 174 Personas and Attributes
All tests using a damaged device have a –1 modifier for every three full boxes of Matrix damage, until the device is repaired.

(but as this is only mentioned in the Personas and Attributes chapter, not in the Devices chapter, it is actually, from a strict reading of the rules as written point of view, not clear if this have an impact on all actions you take with any device or if it just affect matrix actions you take with commlinks and cyberdecks).


There are actually many many examples of this (in almost all sections of the book). While I in previous editions typically argued RAW (Rules as [strictly] Written) I now, for this edition, almost always instead argue RAI (Rules as Intended [with the help of clarifying posts from the author and by applying common sense or real life knowledge and by borrowing rules and examples on how it used to work in previous edition]).

Xenon

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« Reply #27 on: <11-19-21/0401:42> »
What I meant to say was that;

Rule-wise (RAW) it can for sure be read as if you can only brick personas / devices connected to personas (commlinks, cyberdecks, RCCs, ...)

But that I guess the intent (RAI) is that you can [still] brick any device. And what is new for this edition is that just causing matrix damage to any device (for example firearms etc, not just commlinks etc) will also give the user a negative dice pool modifier for tests involving said device.

Finstersang

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« Reply #28 on: <11-19-21/0537:18> »
Thatīs why Iīm not sure if itīs actually necessary (or the best solution to existing problems) to lower the Condition Monitors of devices as MMM suggested. The biggest problem of attacking devices (and Matrix Combat in general!) has always been that the targets can often escape pretty easily. In the case of devices, itīs just a Minor Action to shut down wireless functionality, and since Attack actions are noticed straight away, you often only have one shot. In 6th Edition, thereīs also no Bonus damage for higher access levels as it was in 5th Edition. However, since there are also "Wound modifiers" for devices now, the damage dealt before the device goes offline is not in vain. Also, Matrix Attributes for non-specialists are pretty low now, and Matrix Damage is only resisted by the Firewall Attribute, so oneshotting weakly protected devices isnīt too hard.

Iīd prefer additional options for Hackers and Technomancers that allow for more dedicated anti-device playstyles and additional angles of Attack.

Here are some ideas:
  • Specialized variants of the Attack Program (and/or Resonance Spike ) that are stronger against device icons (in general or even specialized against types of devices).
  • A return of the Bonus Damage for higher Access levels, maybe also tied to a program (in 5th Edition, there was Mugger , which increased the existing bonus damage even further).
  • Other prerequisites that might enable bonus damage, f.i. Physical proximity (Btw: How about AOE Matrix attacks?), OS scores, certain interface modes...
  • The option to link-lock devices as well (or an upgrade/clarification to the existing mechanic). This could work by suppressing or scrambling wireless commands that tell the device to shut down. Manual shutoffs are still possible, but might  require modifications to the device and, obviously, manual access. Forcefully disconnecting a "locked" device might deal further damage similar to jumpshock - if the device is already damaged, that would often deal the final blow.
  • "Sneak Attacks" that are detected with a delay or deal damage over time.
   

Two notes regarding Technomancers:
  • Unless we all miss something, Resonance Spike is just horrible, because it deals no base damage, similar to a direct Combat spell. Itīs usually just a bad Dataspike with added Fading! Since this is not considered as an Attack Action: Is it possible that this already has that "sneaky" funtionality I mentioned above?  ???
  • A bit of a crazy idea, but hear me out: What if Technomancers have abilities that donīt just lock devices in the Matrix, but can even force them back into wireless mode, f.i. with a LOS Complex Form? Yes, thatīs not 100% explainable by conventional logic, but keep in mind that Technomancers are supposed to be scary supernatural Matrix Wizards. Actual "supernatural" feats like this could really help to distinguish them from normal deckers. Deckers in turn can be better in raw numbers.
 
« Last Edit: <11-19-21/0823:58> by Finstersang »

MercilessMing

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« Reply #29 on: <11-19-21/1110:22> »
Quote
However, since there are also "Wound modifiers" for devices now, the damage dealt before the device goes offline is not in vain.
For devices where wound modifiers matter, sure - many are binary.
Quote
Also, Matrix Attributes for non-specialists are pretty low now, and Matrix Damage is only resisted by the Firewall Attribute, so oneshotting weakly protected devices isnīt too hard.
It isn't too hard to do 9 points of matrix damage in one shot? (that's the minimum CM of all devices) That's not true at all, you're talking 5 net hits on a data spike with a Rating 4, $100,000 cyberdeck.  In other words, only drek hot shadowrunner deckers will ever have a chance of doing it, and it would have to be a basically undefended device.  Device Rating X2 would have given a better CM range for narrative outcomes.  This can be retconned in an expanded matrix book by applying Professional Rating logic to device ratings...  Rating 1 mass market junk stops working after any hit, but isn't "dead" until its CM is full.