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[6E] Why did they make banishing so difficult?

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MercilessMing

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« on: <02-23-22/1236:27> »
Banishing is so much more difficult in this edition - why is that?

We were doing what should have been a routine banishment last session and it just got a bit out of hand.
Just to refresh everyone's memory, in a banishment the magician rolls Conjuring + Magic and the spirit resists with Force x2.  This part is not controversial, it's exactly like summoning.  The concept of banishment as a reverse summoning is fine and makes it easy to remember.
But instead of the drain being equal to the number of hits the spirit got on its test, it's twice the hits. 
This is where it got out of hand in my last session.  Our mage was banishing a Force 4 spirit.  That's not a particularly challenging opponent for him.  But RNJesus decided to intervene, and our meek Force 4 got 5 hits on his 8 dice, which meant 10P drain.  That is not the kind of damage potential you expect from a rating 4 anything. 
In addition to this serious risk, you get basically no help from banishment foci.  Instead of the flat dice pool bonus you expect from foci (which admittedly is probably too powerful), banishment foci only give you a temporary edge (CRB pg 155).  But they will only give you that temporary edge if the Force of the focus is higher than the Force of the spirit.  Which means low level banishment foci are a waste because they almost never work, and high level banishment foci are a waste because they cost too much for their benefit.

Any reason you think they chose this mechanic in particular to be far more difficult?
 

Tecumseh

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« Reply #1 on: <02-23-22/1353:28> »
Drain = Hits * 2 is carry-over language from 4E and 5E.

I believe the general idea is that banishing is potentially "easier" than combat because the spirit's number of services basically act like a separate, shorter condition monitor. One hit on a banishing test might be all you needed to get rid of the Giant Spirit of Doom - indeed, the larger the spirit, the fewer the services it probably had, and so the shorter its damage track - so the drain to the banisher was a way to counteract that.

But in all my time playing Shadowrun, I think I've only seen Banishing used once, because 1) nobody wanted to make the investment in skill points, and 2) nobody wanted to risk the drain.

6E's approach to skills (which, to be transparent, I love) means that #1 isn't an issue anymore since you use Conjuring for both summoning and banishing. Now your only deterrent is the potential drain.

All that said, if I were in charge I would probably make the Drain = Hits because I would prefer the symmetry with summoning. I agree that if summoning an F4 spirit isn't a fatal enterprise then banishing one shouldn't be either.

Xenon

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« Reply #2 on: <02-23-22/1521:42> »
For SR6 it seem as if they deliberately changed the drain value on summoning from hits x 2 to hits x 1. If I get to guess I would say that the intent was probably to also match the drain value on banish as well, but perhaps due to copy pasta blindness it was left in.

If you feel high force materialized spirits are a bit on the OP side of the scale then you could rule that drain value for summoning is still hits x 2. If not you should probably rule that also drain value for banishment is just hits x 1.

MercilessMing

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« Reply #3 on: <02-23-22/1605:25> »
So in 4e and 5e, were Drain from summoning and banishing both hits x2?  If so then I can see how the change from spirits rolling their Force to Force x 2 would result in this.

Xenon

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« Reply #4 on: <02-23-22/1718:12> »
So in 4e and 5e, were Drain from summoning and banishing both hits x2?  If so then I can see how the change from spirits rolling their Force to Force x 2 would result in this.
SR5 p. 300 Summoning - Step 3: Resist Drain
Whether you successfully summon the spirit or not, you must resist Drain from the attempt. The Drain Value is equal to twice the hits (not net hits) on the spiritís defense test, with a minimum Drain Value of 2. If the spiritís Force is greater than your Magic rating, the Drain is Physical; otherwise itís Stun.

SR5 p. 301 Banishing
The Drain Value for banishing is equal to twice the hits (not net hits) on the spiritís defense test, with a minimum Drain Value of 2. If the spiritís Force is greater than your Magic rating, the Drain is Physical, otherwise itís Stun.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #5 on: <02-24-22/0007:18> »
So in 4e and 5e, were Drain from summoning and banishing both hits x2?  If so then I can see how the change from spirits rolling their Force to Force x 2 would result in this.

Yes but you rolled force not forcex2.

Xenon

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« Reply #6 on: <02-24-22/1213:28> »
SR5 (spirit only last until sunset or sunrise but can also be bound)
Force x 1 to oppose and Drain = hits x 2 (for both summoning and banishing an unbound spirit)
Force x 2 to oppose and Drain = hits x 2 (for binding)
Force + Magic to oppose and Drain = hits x 2 (for banish of bound spirit)

SR6 (all spirit last a full night or day extra than previous edition but no option to bind)
Force x 2 to oppose and Drain = hits x 1 for summoning but,
Force x 2 to oppose and Drain = hits x 2 for banishing

I still think it would make more sense if SR6 changed it to;
Force x 2 to oppose and Drain = hits x 1 for both summoning and banishing or perhaps
Force x 2 to oppose and Drain = hits x 2 for both summoning and banishing or even
Force x 1 to oppose and Drain = hits x 2 for both summoning and banishing.
« Last Edit: <02-25-22/1258:07> by Xenon »

MercilessMing

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« Reply #7 on: <02-25-22/1030:41> »
Quote
SR6 (all spirit last a full night or day extra than previous edition but no option to bind)
Force x 1 to oppose and Drain = hits x 2 for summoning but,
Force x 2 to oppose and Drain = hits x 2 for banishing

No no, SR6 is:

Force X 2 to oppose and Drain = hits for summoning, but
Force X 2 to oppose and Drain = hits x 2 for banishing.

And would make more sense to be
Force x 2 to oppose and Drain = hits for summoning and banishing.

Xenon

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« Reply #8 on: <02-25-22/1254:48> »
Huh, yes. Not sure why I.... I'll update ;)