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SR5 Flechette Ammunition

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Hanzo

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« on: <07-12-21/1722:16> »
Hoi, chummers!

Let's cut to the chase: Can I load my AK-97 (and any other gun) with the flechette ammo?

It's neither stated that I can do it nor that i cannot do it, so it's kinda confuses me. Especially the range. Do I understand correct that the only range that suffers is the Shotgun range, the one with the choke?

RickDeckard

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« Reply #1 on: <07-14-21/0213:35> »
Yes.

What makes you doubt that? Nothing in the rules says you can't.

Hanzo

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« Reply #2 on: <07-14-21/0244:13> »
Shotgun Choke Rule has references to the Flechette Ammo. I agree with you that nothing in the CRB says that I cannot use this type of ammo with any gun type other than shotgun. But nothing also says that I can do that. We have RAW that implies that You're absolutely free to use any ammo type with any gun. But some GM's consider that RAI say that You can use flechtte ONLY with shotguns cuase flechette is mentioned only in the Shotgun Rules.

RickDeckard

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« Reply #3 on: <07-14-21/0352:22> »
Shadowrun flechette ammo has nothing to do with real flechette ammo anyway, so I guess it could be for shotguns. Never thought of that. Real life flechette ammo is for piercing armor, whereas SR flechette ammo is exactly the opposite. Not sure where they got that idea from.

Reaver

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« Reply #4 on: <07-14-21/1246:17> »
Part of that is a"lost in translarion" thing tbrough the editions.

From 1 to 3e, armor came in 2 forms, ballistic and impact. Back then flechette ammo had a bonus to bypass ballistic, but had an increase to impact.... but that doesn't matter anymore.

You can fire flechette from just about any weapon.

Shotguns get a special mention because of spread, a feature other weapons don't get.
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Xenon

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« Reply #5 on: <07-14-21/1953:49> »
Shotguns typically fire Slug Rounds or Shot Rounds. Shot Rounds contain several small pellets (or slivers of Flechette) that will break up already when fired by the shotgun. They use same damage rules as Flechette (causing extra damage to unprotected targets but have less armor penetration against armored targets) but in addition to this Shot Rounds spread can be set with choke settings of the shotgun (you have a spread here, making them harder to defend against).

Flechette Rounds that you load in weapons separate from shotguns consists of 1 single "bullet" that will travel from the weapon to the target as one single projectile (no spread, no choke settings, no negative  dice pool modifier to defense) and then break up into many small slivers of Flechette upon impact (causing extra damage to unprotected targets but have less armor penetration against armored targets).

Hanzo

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« Reply #6 on: <07-15-21/0940:34> »
In that case what's the point of some guns with incorporated flechette damage code, like Cavalier Arms Adder Slivergun or Ares Viper Silvergun? If any weapon can use flechette, then these weapon are way worse than any other gun. Cause they have F rating availability. A runnner can buy any weapon with R rating and load it with R rating flechette ammo and use it with a license without any trouble from police forces.

Reaver

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« Reply #7 on: <07-15-21/2045:26> »
In that case what's the point of some guns with incorporated flechette damage code, like Cavalier Arms Adder Slivergun or Ares Viper Silvergun? If any weapon can use flechette, then these weapon are way worse than any other gun. Cause they have F rating availability. A runnner can buy any weapon with R rating and load it with R rating flechette ammo and use it with a license without any trouble from police forces.

Quote

You can fire flechette from just about any weapon.

There are some weapons that can not take Flechette, and there are some weapons that ONLY fire flechette. The Slivergun is one of those weapons... And really, its right in the name! SLIVER - : a long slender piece cut or torn off : SPLINTER, b: a small and narrow portion :D

And in the description, is tells you exactly what is going on:
Quote
Ares Viper Slivergun: The sleek Slivergun pairs the
undeniably winning combo of burst-fire capability and
built-in sound suppression (an integral silencer, p. 432)
with its large magazine capacity. It fires metal slivers that
count as flechette ammunition, which is factored into
the weapon’s damage code.

and lets see.... We have a pistol with 30 rounds of ammo, can fire bursts, fires basically untraceable ammo (slivers of metal won't contain any useful forensic info  such as barrel pattern, AND is integrally silenced. This is, and always has been an assassin's weapon, and never meant for the general public to get their hands on. (so, government and Corp ownership only).

Now, that doesn't mean that a Runner can't get their hands on it (just not a character creation), it just means that they can never get a license for it, and if they get caught with it.. well, Do Not Pass Go. Do Not Collect $200...
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Hanzo

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« Reply #8 on: <07-16-21/0216:23> »
Quote
There are some weapons that can not take Flechette

What are they? Well except Assault canons and exotic weapons ...

Quote
We have a pistol with 30 rounds of ammo

What stops you from loading your Remington Suppressor with a flechette? Or maybe Steyr TMP with the same 30 round clip AND full auto mode? Both these options are R btw.

Reaver

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« Reply #9 on: <07-16-21/0400:00> »
You mentioned most that i can of off hand...

Nothing stops you from loading most weapons with flechette. Hence why it is an ammo choice :P

Really, you seem to be talking in circles.

If your gripe is the slivergun, and its coding, that's a different issue than "what can shoot flechette ammo".

As to the Slivergun: its an iconic piece of SR tech dating all the way back to 1e. It has always been a "F" rated weapon, even under the old Availability systems. A lit has been lost through edition changes - such as its devastating effects on heavy ballistic armor (like that wirn by police), its incredibly high concealability to damage ratio, and the specific callout that it bypasses chem-sniffers. (Originally this was a gas powered weapon that didn't rely on chemical combustion).


Like I said, a lot has been lost over the edition cut/pastes, but the core idea and flavor (as well as coding) hasn't really changed.
« Last Edit: <07-16-21/1513:34> by Reaver »
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Hanzo

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« Reply #10 on: <07-16-21/0410:06> »
Qot it ! Thanks a lot ! Now I see where it comes from !

Reaver

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« Reply #11 on: <07-16-21/0452:15> »
just for shits and giggles, I pulled out my 1e book and took a look at the guns and how flechette ammo used to work, WAAAY back in the beginning:

The Slivergun had a damage code of 2M3 AFTER factoring in flechette ammo.... (this is important!)

The Predator is tied for the max damage in a pistol at a base code of 4m2 (that would be regular ammo)

now, lets look at what flechette used to do: HALVE ballistic armor, DOUBLE impact armor use the higher modified value to resist.  -1 power level, +1 staging.


 So the Slivergun stays at a 2M3 damage code. BUT the Predator ends up at 4L3 damage code, a full damage rank below the slivergun!

now why does this matter? well lets look at the common armors:

Armored clothing B:3 I:0
Armored Jacket: B:5 I:3
Armored Vest B:2 I:0
Lined Coat B:4 I:2
Vest with plates B:4 I:3

Armor counted as AUTO successes on the damage resistance test, and everyone only had basically 10 health. 2 damage was a light wound (L code) 4 damage was a moderate wound (M code), 6 damage was a serious wound. (S code), and the dreaded DEADLY DAMAGE was 10 damage (D code).

Now lets talk combat a bit:
for a weapon back then the number before the power code was the "Damage rating". and the number after the damage code was staging rating.. how many successes you need to stage the damage up AND the power code up.
Burst fire gave a damage modifier of: +2 damage rating, +1 power code.

depending on equipment, skills, "pools", attributes, and modifiers, players could be rolling for a single attack with as many as 30 dice VERY easily. And with a target number as low as 2... (so they needed to roll a 1 to miss!)

So I don't like Fred.... I decide to walk up behind Fred, pull out my Slivergun, take careful aim at that left butt cheek.. and let off a burst!
Slivergun: 2m3
Burst raises that to: 4s3
I roll my 30 dice VS a target number of 3..... and get 15 successes!!!
Damage stages to: 9D3 


Fred is wearing an Armored Jacket (B:5 I3). But because I am using a Slivergun, the ballistic part is halved, and the I pact doubles. So Fred's new Armor ratings are B:3I:6 and he resists with 6 armor (Flechette is resisted by the higher of the 2 modified values)

Is Fred Dead?

Well, he gets 6 auto successes... and gets to roll his body VS a target number of... 9. (so he rolls his dice, picks up the 6s and rolls those again...) chances are not good of gettting more then 1.
SO Fred has 7 Successes.... which is enough to stage the damage back down by 2 power ratings... (from deadly to Serious, to Moderate)

Fred now has a moderate wound, and many, many, many tiny metal shards in his ass... 

Starting to see why Flechette and the Slivergun where so good.. and illegal?


Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

RickDeckard

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« Reply #12 on: <07-16-21/0505:36> »
Quote
There are some weapons that can not take Flechette

What are they? Well except Assault canons and exotic weapons ...

Quote
We have a pistol with 30 rounds of ammo

What stops you from loading your Remington Suppressor with a flechette? Or maybe Steyr TMP with the same 30 round clip AND full auto mode? Both these options are R btw.

Good question, I'd like to know that as well. Maybe Flechette is not meant for regulr guns. Actually it's hard to imagine packing a bunch of slivers into a regular bullet as opposed to a shotgun casing.

Hanzo

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« Reply #13 on: <07-16-21/0523:46> »
Ouch ! That's pretty nasty ! That must have bee hurt !

That totally made sence back in ol' good days of 1e. But now it's 5e and 6e time.

Ares Viper Silvergun (flechette only) 8!F!
DV: 9P(f)   AP:+4   

Savalette Guardian 6R
Basic
DV: 8P   AP: –1
Flechette
DV: 10P(f)   AP:+4

or

Steyr TMP 8R
DV: 7P   AP: –
Flechette
DV: 9P(f)   AP:+5

Yeah, core rule book basically doesn't have any analogue to the Viper with it's SA/BF, 30 round mag and Heavy Pistol Range, but the rules... oh, boy...

Reaver

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« Reply #14 on: <07-16-21/0705:05> »
Yep.
The edition changes, gun porn, and "updates" means that some things got left by the wayside, or downgraded in usefulness, or just plain outdated.

It happens to every system.

The best way to look at all ammo choices is as simply as modifiers to the weaoon they are loaded into. Need to put a hole in that armored target? APDS may do the job. Need to drop that angry charging Plasma? Flechette will do that. Need to pop that ganger's head? EX-EX for all your cranial removal needs...


Unless the weapon says it can't (or just doesn't make sense - lasers) any firearm can fire any type of ammo.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.