[StarManta]

In previous editions of SR, there were only the hermetic and shamanic traditions, and they had a number of differences between them (like the distinction between binding spirits and summoning them on-demand). In SR4, this changed. You could now have any number of traditions..... but holy crap, they are bland. The drain stat is, for the most part, the only distinction that matters.

So I thought about how to brainstorm something new, and I looked to the advanced Lifestyle rules in RC for inspiration. If it could be refined, it might even be something that could be included in the SR5 magic sourcebook.

I present: Advanced Traditions. It allows magical traditions to be truly unique compared to one another, while maintaining balance between them. I invite your criticisms and thoughts.

Like character builds have Build Points and lifestyles have Lifestyle Points, traditions could be built of Tradition Points. Every tradition would be built of "Qualities" that cost or reward TP. There would be a standard "neutral" amount of TP that a tradition builds to; going over or under this amount would have some sort of cost, perhaps as simple as a global DP modifier when dealing with magic, or a modifier to the Drain Value of spells.

These qualities represent facets of belief of the particular tradition. They both enable and restrict traditions to do certain things. If the party comes across and recognizes a Qabbalist as such, they know that this mage can only cast spells on the Sabbath, enabling both good strategy and good roleplaying.

Sample Qualities:
On-demand Conjuring: (1 TP) Magicians of this tradition can summon a spirit with a Complex Action.
Spirit Binding: (1 TP) Magicians of this tradition can bind spirits.
(Note: a tradition could take both, or neither, of these. "Both" would make the tradition behave like SR4, where they can both summon instantly and bind spirits. "Neither" means they cannot summon spirits at all.
No projection: (-2 TP)  Magicians of this tradition cannot leave their body and astrally project.
Required Geas: (-1 TP) Magicians of this tradition MUST take a particular Geas. For example, Qabbalists must take a Time Geas not to cast on the Sabbath. This is probably the most "flavorful" option a tradition can utilize.
(Type) Magic Forbidden: (-1 TP) Magicians of this tradition cannot use a particular type of spells (Illusion, Manipulation, etc). Perhaps Buddhists cannot learn Combat spells.
Willpower drain: (2 TP) The drain attribute of this tradition is WIL x 2. (In game terms, this frees up BP on the other attribute; would be great for a dwarf-centric tradition.)
Race restriction: (-1 TP) Certain metahuman types may not use this tradition.
Spirit Possession: (2 TP) Spirits of this tradition may possess the magician, enhancing their stats with its own.
Projecting Materialization: (3 TP) Astrally projecting magicians may materialize, affecting the physical world.
Pennance: (-1 to -3 TP) Magicians of this tradition are required to perform certain tasks or services.
Solitary Study: (1 TP) Magicians may learn and advance in this tradition without joining a group. Without this quality, a magical Group is required for advancement.
Tolerant Essence: (1 TP) Magicians of this tradition suffer half the magic losses from Essence as a normal character (rounded down). The actual Essence lost remains the same; only the Magic lost as a result is modified.

These are the ones that have come off the top of my head, I'm sure others could be conceived.

Sample Traditions: (using 1 TP as the standard amount)

Hermetic: Spirit Binding (1)
Total: 1 TP; Spells cause normal drain value

Qabbalistic: Required Geas (Time) (-1), On-demand Conjuring (1)
Total: 0 TP; Spell drain reduced by 1 for all spells

Path of the Wheel: Race restriction (Elves only) (-1), Spirit Binding (1)
Total: 0 TP; Spell drain reduced by 1 for all spells

Voodoo: Spirit Binding (1), Spirit Possession (2)
Total: 3 TP, Spell drain increased by 2 for all spells

Chaos Magic: Tolerant Essence (1)
(they cannot summon spirits, but they may take up to 1 Essence of ware without a penalty, which is incredibly useful of course)
Total: 1 TP

Buudhism: Combat Magic Forbidden (-2), Required Geas (Fasting) (-1), Spirit Binding (1)
Total: -2 TP, Spell drain decreased by 3 for all spells

[Mournclaw]

Okay, so I make a tradition that can't project, can't use detection or illusion spells and is usable by only humans. I get a drain modifier of -6. I'll call the tradition... Military psychics! I cast fireballs at force 8 without any risk of drain!

[farothel]

Mournclaw has a point here.  Some people will go that way to get some extra cheese out of it.  Maybe limit the final amount between +3 and -3 to limit the exesses of the system.  Other than that, I like the idea.

[Makki]

the drain thing is stupid. But the genereal idea is good. One should rather think about a system like Martial Arts. Buying additional advantages for your tradition.

[emsquared]

You could now have any number of traditions..... but holy crap, they are bland. The drain stat is, for the most part, the only distinction that matters.
...
I present: Advanced Traditions. It allows magical traditions to be truly unique compared to one another, while maintaining balance between them. I invite your criticisms and thoughts.

Definitely agree with the basis and love the overall premise. Magicians in general as an "Archetype", I feel, are tragically monotonous. If you're a Magician, you're a Magician and that's it unless you flavor it with Qualities. And while your spells are also flavor, you're eventually going to have the same things as every other Runner Magician. I always thought it would be nice to see something like an Aspected Magician be the default - not quite as severe as that, but more like Specialist Wizards in DnD. How you could be an Evoker, Necromancer, etc. but would lose access to another school. But instead it'd just be a simple +2 dice pool in one class of spell (Combat, Manipulation, Heal, etc.) and/or summons and a penalty of 2 to another school and/or summons - or something. I think you've got a good starting point with Tradition Qualities, but just need to refine the corresponding mechanic. Maybe 2 TP per 1 Drain die? Limit to 3 as mentioned?

[StarManta]

Alright, so affecting Drain in that way is clearly overpowered. I'm not sure a limit is the right way to go, either, because exceeding the limit on the other side becomes a hack in itself.

So, let's make it so that it has to be balanced - you must balance at 0 TP, and add a few more Qualities options to enable that. Keep in mind these can only be taken once (whereas some, like Required Geas, may be taken more than once for different subcategories).

Tough Casting: (-1) It causes the magician 2 extra drain to cast a spell.
Easy casting: (1) It causes the magician 2 less drain to cast a spell.
Tough Conjuring: (-1) It causes the magician 2 extra drain to summon, banish, or bind a spirit.
Easy Conjuring: (1) It causes the magician 2 less drain to summon, banish, or bind a spirit.
Fetishes required: (-1) All spells require a fetish in order to be cast.

With a more fleshed-out list of qualities, I think we can get every tradition to 0 TP; simply make that a requirement of the system.

As far as Martial Arts style "Advantages", I believe that's pretty much covered by Mentor Spirits, no?

[StarManta]

A revised list of sample traditions:

Hermetic: Spirit Binding (1), Required Geas (Incantation) (-1)

Shamanic: On-demand Conjuring (1), Required Geas (Gesture) (-1)

Qabbalistic: Required Geas (Time) (-1), On-demand Conjuring (1)

Path of the Wheel: Race restriction (Elves only) (-1), Spirit Binding (1)

Voodoo: Spirit Binding (1), Spirit Possession (2), Tough Conjuring (-1), Required Geas (Gesture) (-1), Required Geas (Ritual) (-1)

Chaos Magic: Tolerant Essence (1), Tough Casting (-1)

Buddhism: Combat Magic Forbidden (-2), Required Geas (Fasting) (-1), Spirit Binding (1), Easy Conjuring (1), Easy Casting (1)

[RHat]

Some notes:

- The basic Magician under the current rules should be the base that everything changes from, thus conjuration and binding are there by default.  The loss of one or both then counts as a negative.
- "Required Geas" is far, far, far more restrictive than most of the flavour on this stuff suggests.  A Hermetic Magician doesn't need an incantation, it just helps him.  That is not properly represented through a Geas.
- Something like Tolerant Essence, should it come into existence, would need to be a positive quality that you spend BP on - 10-15, specifically.  All aspects of a system like this would have to be less powerful than that.

Working up the numbers in full would take some time I don't have this week, but a good approach for advanced traditions would be something like this:

1: Set Drain Attribute.  Each is relatively balanced against the others, so no point adjustment is needed here.
2: Select summoning type - Materialization or Possession.  Possession would carry a point cost.
3: Select spirits by category.  If something can be in, say, both the Combat category and another category, it costs more in the second category than the first.  This is an important step given the fact that some spirits are categorically more powerful than alternatives.
4: Select advantages and disadvantages.  For example, an advantage might be a bonus to spellcasting or drain tests when gestures are used.  A disadvantage might be a penalty to using a certain type of spell (rather than straight up barring its use).  Another example would be bonuses or penalties to conjuring or binding.
5: Final point total must be equal to a certain specific number of points.  No need to deal with variances in the total.

[Mirikon]

It is an interesting idea, but it needs a LOT of work. Too broken, as is.

[UmaroVI]

Race restriction should really just go. "Penance" is super vague and I think should be done via Geas.

Solitary Study is a problem, because how does anyone acquire this tradition? If you have to learn it from another member of the tradition, and they had to as well, etc.... Also, magical groups already provide their own benefits. I think this should just be removed and traditions default to having this.

"Projecting Materialization" is hella broken.

I think you need more granularity on the Summoning. First, some spirit types are better than others. Second, why does every tradition have to have exactly 5 types of spirits?

Tolerant Essence is hella broken.

I would add the following: Can't use foci, Can't take a mentor spirit, can only learn spells "in person" or by researching (not from formulae) to allow duplicating some existing traditions with those drawbacks.

Possession should be more granular: I'd suggest including possess only you, possess only specific things (ex: dead bodies only, objects only), can't prepare vessels, and only prepared vessels.

No projection is not as harsh as you have costed it.

Summoning is way more valuable than you have costed it.

I suggest just lighting the drain modifier on fire and requiring balance.

[Mithlas]

I really like the idea of a little more optional complexity to traditions (which, admittedly, are made slightly bland in 4e). Given that the metatypes are all technically homosapien and the series is clear that the incompatibility between them is almost entirely an artificial social or political construct, I think that race restrictions don't hold enough weight to keep.

I'd agree that Materialization and Tolerant Essence are rather stronger than an advanced traditions microsystem would be able to handle - the former pretty much negates the Endowment quality of ally spirits, not something easy to get, and the latter is something that would probably be better served as a basic quality. What about adding being able to/having to research spells from formulae (rather than directly learning them from another caster/spirit) as another minor adjustment?