[Hobbes]

Human vs Ork.

500 Nuyen for the Low-light.
4 Karma for the Built Tough Positive Quality
60+ year added lifespan?   Priceless. 

Just sayin. 

I'm not sure why folks get spun up over minor mechanical differences when any of us posting here could take a Mage with essentially random Priority picks that could replace the entire team.

5E Mages were OP, and they were buffed in 6E.  If you want to get worked up about inter-character balance, start there.

The Metatype changes are a net positive in 6E, IMO.  The mechanical differences between Metatypes are minor.  You can now choose to play whatever Metatype you want based on RP preferences with minimal mechanical impact.  This is good.

[Finstersang]

It´s worth noting that the ability to go up to 7 Edge wouldn´t be such a crap-trap if Edge gain and Edge capping would work a bit differently. Here`s why:

In 5th Edition, going up to 7 Edge was absolutely worth it, at least at most tables. I´d even say that Edgelords were too powerfull when the "meta" was right (i.e. when they have a GM that lets players roll/fight just often enough so that they can use Edge on every important roll). In the 6th Edition, this is not the case anymore.

Besides starting the Session with one Additional Edge point (woo hoo...) and getting one additional die when using one specific Edge Action, the main benefit is supposed to be that you can transition more Edge between two scenes. Which is a. still not very impressive and b. not really working out as way to use Edge efficiently. The benefit of having an Edge Attribute of 7 instead of 6 or lower comes only in handy when you just happen to have 7 Edge Points in the bank when a scene is over.

The problem here is that you earn Edge on a test before you are able to use it. That means "banking" on 7 Points of Edge is a a bad strategy if you want to make the best out your Edge. If you sit on 7 Edge Points when you perform an Action (or get targetted by an Action) that grants you Edge, you effectively lose that Edge. Note that this would already happen with an Edge Score of 6 every once in a while, because you potentially can (and often will, if you play cleverly) earn 2 Edge on an Action.

If the "cutoff" would happen after the Action is finished, that wouldn´t be such a problem. You could spend the 1-2 Edge you earned right on that Action and stay at a count of 7 Edge (Note that this is line of thought very similar to one frequent houserule suggestion regarding the 2-Edge-per-Round limit).

[Finstersang]

60+ year added lifespan?   Priceless. 

In Shadowrun, like most RPGs, (maximum) age is literally just a number. When was the last time that a shadowrunner died of old age? 

I'm not sure why folks get spun up over minor mechanical differences when any of us posting here could take a Mage with essentially random Priority picks that could replace the entire team.

Good point, compared to some of the utter sillyness due to patchy rules regarding magic/resonance and burnouts (raises glass for Tony the Troll Technomancer), the "human problem" is a relatively minor one.

But it´s also a pretty damn obvious one. I think that´s why it´s so infuriating. Jeez, just give `em a little bonus Karma (5 is probably enough...) for costumization and call it a day.

[Lormyr]

5E Mages were OP, and they were buffed in 6E.  If you want to get worked up about inter-character balance, start there.

While I agree that magic is still in need of being toned down, I strongly disagree that mages are more powerful in 6e than 5e.

Spirits are more resilient and numerous in 6e. That is the beginning and end of mage buffs.

Drain pools remain relatively on par between editions. Foci remain relatively on par between editions. Focused concentration is generally irrelevant (in terms of raw power, not necessarily subtlety) past a session or three due to quickening.

Spell damage (that you can cast and survive) is way down in 6e, even considering the lower scale. The real dampener is that mage durability is completely neutered. Combat sense, armor, astral armor, and deflection made base mages quick resilient in 5e. In 6e the only thing they have to assist with survivability is increase body, intuition, reaction, and willpower. While that still gives them a leg up on most other non-adept or mystic adepts (still the defense kings long term), it is also significantly down from 5e.

[mcv]

I understand the issue now. It sounds like the goal was to make metatype a purely cosmetic choice, which would be something I strongly agree with, and they ended up giving metahumans an extra option to reflect their higher attributes, which turns out to make a potentially big difference.

If I understand correctly, because there is no metatype prio choice that gives humans exactly enough SAPs to max out their edge, it may actually be more likely to encounter metahumans with max edge because they can spend the excess on other attributes. So if humans are supposed to be the real edge monsters of the game, at the very least, they should (ironically) have something other than edge they can spend their SAPs on.

Of course there are still many other reasons than mechanical optimisation to choose one metatype over another: aesthetics, rolepaying, and blending in; a human can blend into a crowd of humans, which are everywhere. Orcs can only blend in in the Ork Underground, and elves only in Tir Tairngire.

Still, if trolls and orks have higher gear/lifestyle costs, it seems that elves and dwarfs would be the mechanically most attractive metatypes to play. They get all the advantages and none of the disadvantages. On top of that, they have a better shot at blending into human society than orks and trolls.

[Hobbes]

5E Mages were OP, and they were buffed in 6E.  If you want to get worked up about inter-character balance, start there.

While I agree that magic is still in need of being toned down, I strongly disagree that mages are more powerful in 6e than 5e.

Spirits are more resilient and numerous in 6e. That is the beginning and end of mage buffs.

Focused Concentration 3 out of the gate for Drain stat +4, Drain stat +4 and Increased Reflexes.  Two Major Actions = Two Amp'd up AoEs at the top of the round.

For Muggles to spot Magic is now a Threshold test equal to the caster's Magic so 6 for most PCs.  Any Mage with Control Thoughts is now Killgrave unless another Mage is standing there in Astral space.  And it also means those Amp'd Up AoE deathballs are coming from out of nowhere unless there is another mage around to point out the caster.

Invisibility is still awesome, and now you can sustain 3 of them for no penalty.

Spellcasting got a couple tweaks in it's favor.  The Perception thing is huge if the GM plays RAW.  Just Manabolt someone down and they have no idea whats happening until they drop.

[Jimmy_Pvish]

Mage buff in 6e is obvious.
Analytical Mind and Focus Concentration.

Analytical Mind is basically "give hermetic mage free edge when they cast a spell" and it's dirt cheap at 3 karma.

And for Focus Concentration.
In 5e, quickening can be a trap option because it can be be taking away and all karma will go to waste.
That's why some table don't use it, some paranoid player won't touch it, the potential disaster is there.

6e Focus Concentration is not, there is no drawback, there is no reason not taking it.
In 6e, any mage will has 3 spell sustain at all time, at the minimum.
And Focus Concentration DV limit is COINCIDENTALLY and TOTALLY NOT INTENT, give exactly maximum +4 to increase attribute spell.

6e mage will nearly never suffer any damage from drain or if they do, it will be stun damage most of the time,
because their drain resistant dice pool is so high (21 for elf shaman, 20 for dwarf, 19 for anything else not ork/troll shaman, which is at 18).

In 5e, mage will be risk to suffer physical drain from time to time, that won't happen in 6e.

And that's also making mage the best tank in shadowrun, at lease at chargen because soak is no more, only dodge tank is possible.
With 5+4 Will, mage will have +9 defense test when using full defense.
They will dodge bullet like it's noting, they laugh at "geek the mage first" motto.

Now imagining when they introduce INT tradition in later book, they will have 17 defense dice at all time, 26 with full defense.

[Finstersang]

Well, Alchemy got nerfed. So there´s that 

[R Villiers]

"For Muggles to spot Magic is now a Threshold test equal to the caster's Magic so 6 for most PCs." Have the rules changed so that magic=4, priority A is max for a starting character?

[Lormyr]

Focused Concentration 3 out of the gate for Drain stat +4, Drain stat +4 and Increased Reflexes.  Two Major Actions = Two Amp'd up AoEs at the top of the round.

Past a once shot session, focused concentration is irrelevant. You will have all of that from quickening for 3 karma vs. 36. There is no net buff here from 5e.

For Muggles to spot Magic is now a Threshold test equal to the caster's Magic so 6 for most PCs.

Sure, that's nice. I don't personally consider that a power buff though.

Invisibility is still awesome

Totally. And little different from being awesome in 5e.

Just Manabolt someone down and they have no idea whats happening until they drop.

Now this aspect of spotting magic is a buff, and a problem. It won't work as well with indirect spells since it points to the source, but the real problem with this is long term play on high magic characters. At chargen using this tactic at threshold 6 (magic) vs. 5 (force 1 with reagents for 5e) is a minimal difference.

In 5e, quickening can be a trap option because it can be be taking away and all karma will go to waste.

I never once lost a quickened spell to a ward in 5e. At worse, I either waited while the rest of the team handled something that absolutely had to be done with subtlety, or I broke that ward and watched everything the opposition had to throw bounce off my 20 something quickened spells.

Dispelling rarely happened for two reasons. It was hard to justify it combat instead of taking an offensive or defensive action, and succeeding in the effort was exceptionally unlikely do to the unfavorable formula of the roll.

6e Focus Concentration is not, there is no drawback, there is no reason not taking it.

Except that it is redundant to quickening, significantly more karma costly, and doesn't permit the full array of desired spells.

6e mage will nearly never suffer any damage from drain or if they do, it will be stun damage most of the time,
because their drain resistant dice pool is so high (21 for elf shaman, 20 for dwarf, 19 for anything else not ork/troll shaman, which is at 18).

In 5e, mage will be risk to suffer physical drain from time to time, that won't happen in 6e.

Other than coming out with more dice at char gen, there is literally no upper limit difference from 5e to 6e.

Option A, you spend 36 karma and come out the door with your drain dice and initiative.

Option B, you wait 2 sessions, spend 13 karma, and get your same dice plus initiate grade 1.

And that's also making mage the best tank in shadowrun, at lease at chargen because soak is no more, only dodge tank is possible.
With 5+4 Will, mage will have +9 defense test when using full defense.
They will dodge bullet like it's noting, they laugh at "geek the mage first" motto.

Other than adepts, agreed. However, this is still significantly less defensive than in 5e. This is not a buff from 5e- it is just the best in class for 6e. Not the same.

[penllawen]

I never once lost a quickened spell to a ward in 5e. At worse, I either waited while the rest of the team handled something that absolutely had to be done with subtlety, or I broke that ward and watched everything the opposition had to throw bounce off my 20 something quickened spells.

What?! From my limited perspective that sounds incredibly powerful. Was the rest of the table on par with that? How do you even get, say, a samurai to that level?!

[Finstersang]

First: This discussion is straying pretty far away from the original topic now. So why don´t we put that tangent into a different thread (proposed title: "Magicrun is bad, and you should feel bad") instead of hiding it here? Make some noise. That way, the super elite RPG writers behind of 6th Edition at least can´t complain that they didn´t know what was going on down with the great unwashed when 6th Editions version of Forbidden Arcana finally ramps Magic up to 11 (except Alchemy, of course ).

Second: I don´t get that need for splitting hairs sometimes. Is it really that important if or how much magicrun has increased compared to 5th Edition when it already was a frequent grievance back then? It´s still a huge problem nonetheless, and its infuriating that it´s still there. The people behind 5th Magic section either didn´t have a any superficial look into the forums or just didn´t give a damn, Hey Diddy Ho Diddy.

[Lormyr]

What?! From my limited perspective that sounds incredibly powerful. Was the rest of the table on par with that? How do you even get, say, a samurai to that level?!

For context, this was my Chicago Missions character I played through the whole 88 or whatever Missions available. Roughly 3/4 of his play was at the same two locations, with the same 30 or so core group of people. No, the rest of the table was no where near on par, and you can't get anything but magically active characters to that level. It didn't matter though, because I knew the people I played with, so I knew when to act and not act, and how much to reign it in or unleash.

I'll post a copy of his sheet for you. I think it's updated, and without his heavy milspec on, but I don't recall for sure. I specifically didn't take him into Hapsom-Do martial arts for Harmonious Defense to keep my friend Mike's head from exploding. Doing that is the correct optimizer choice though, as it would have given him another 34 spell defense dice per pass, at which point he would have laughed off magic from the likes of Harlequin, Lofwyr, and their ilk.

Second: I don´t get that need for splitting hairs sometimes. Is it really that important if or how much magicrun has increased compared to 5th Edition when it already was a frequent grievance back then? It´s still a huge problem nonetheless, and its infuriating that it´s still there.

You're not wrong.

[penllawen]

I feel like I didn't really understand the "Magicrun" thing until now. Wow. Thanks, Lormyr.

[Lormyr]

I feel like I didn't really understand the "Magicrun" thing until now. Wow. Thanks, Lormyr.

Np. I thought just showing you numbers might help more than a bunch of words.