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(SR5) Face only a Mother could Love!

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Bushw4cker

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« on: <06-24-16/0159:13> »
Been thinking about this Face Idea for a while. I wanted a Face type character that wasn't the stereotypical 8 Charisma Elf.

He is ex-military UCAS special forces. After I made this character, I thought about that scene in the movie "Act of Valor", where Otto interrogates the prisoner on the boat. (Movie wasn't that good, but I thought
that one scene was great.) That might have been my subconscious inspiration for this character..

Couple of questions I have with character concept, hopefully I can get some feedback on.

Using Kinesics and Psychology Knowledge skills in Social Situations?.  Maybe add Kinesics Rating to Judge Intention Tests when target is physically present.  Make Psychology test to get bonus dice to Mental Intimidation, Negotiation. and Leadership tests. Just a few examples I was thinking of that I don't think would be horribly unbalancing.

Aged Negative Quality when you're an Ork. Can he be 50 in Ork Years?

Dependent Negative Quality Rating 3. I have Nanny Troll Contact for babysitting. (Connection 2, Loyalty 5), could this help offset some of the disadvantages of Quality? I am wondering what the opinions would be on allowing this?

ANy thoughts, comments or suggestions about character are appreciated.

Thanks!

Character was made using Karmagen. 800pts

Included Spoiler because I think not everyone will check out character if it is Attachment. (Attachment looks way better though.. )

[spoiler]
ATTRIBUTES (450)                                 
BOD      5      WIL      5      WLK      10   
AGI      3(5)      LOG      4      RUN      20   
REA      3(5)      INT      6      SPNT      (+2)   
STR      4(6)      CHA      4      COM      9   
ESS      3      EDGE      4      JUD      10   
MAG      0      LIFT      11      MEM      10   
Init: 9(11) + 1D6   Edge: OOOO                                 
                                 
PHY      8      MEN      7      SOC      6   

ACTIVE SKILLS (152)                        RTG      DP   
Intimidation                        4      8   
 (Mental +2)                              10   
Animal Handling                        1      5   
Perception                        4      10   
 (Visual +2)                              12   
Unarmed Combat                        3      8   
Blades                        1      6   
 (Knives +2)                              8   
Pistols                        2      7   
 (Semi-Automatics +2)                              9   
Automatics                        1      6   
 (Assault Rifles +2)                              8   
Throwing Weapons                        1      6   
Heavy Weapons                        2      7   
Gunnery                        1      6   
Pilot Ground Craft                        1      6   
Pilot Watercraft                        1      6   
Pilot Aircraft                        1      6   
Sneaking                        3      8   
Demolitions                        1      5   
Computer                        2      6   
 (Matrix Search +2)                              8   
Hardware                        1      6   
Software                        1      6   
Armorer                        1      5   
Free-Fall                        1      6   
Diving                        1      6   

SKILL GROUPS (75)                        RTG      DP   
Acting                        1      5   
Influence                        4      8   
Biotech                        1      5   
Athletics                        1      *   
Engineering                        1      5   
Outdoors                        1      *   

KNOWLEDGE SKILLS                        RTG      DP   
Covert Ops                        1      5   
Military                        1      5   
Military Science                        1      5   
Small Unit Tactics                        6      12   
Global Hotspots                        1      7   
Mercenary Groups                        3      9   
Munitions                        1      5   
Global Politics                        4      10   
UCAS Politics                        1      7   
Security Companies                        1      7   
Security Design                        1      5   
Parazoology                        1      5   
Psychology                        6      10   
Kinesics                        6      10   
Trid Shows                        1      7   
Geography                        1      5   
Literature                        1      5   
History                        1      5   
Music                        1      7   

LANGUAGE SKILLS (23)                        RTG      DP   
English                        N      -   
Japanese                        2      9   
Spanish                        2      9   
Mandarin                        1      8   
Arabic                        1      8   
Portuguese                        1      8   
Russian                        1      8   
Bengali                        1      8   
German                        1      8   
French                        1      8   
Hindi                        1      8   
Navajo                        1      8   
Salish                        1      8   
Sperethiel                        1      8   
Or'zet                        1      8   

POSITIVE QUALITIES (1)                              RTG   
Profiler                              -   
Linguist                              -   
First Impression                              -   
Jack of All Trades                              -   
Perfect Time                              -   
                                 
NEGATIVE QUALITIES                              RTG   
SINner (National, UCAS)                              -   
Consummate Professional                                 
Aged (50 in Ork Years)                              1   
Dependent(s)                              3   
                                 
CYBERWARE (144.3K)                        RTG      GRD   
Datajack                        -      A   
o Wireless: Rating 1 Noise Reduction                                 
Commlink                        6      A   
Cybereyes                        2      A   
 Flare Compensation                        -      -   
 Thermographic Vision                        -      -   
 Low-Light Vision                        -      -   
 Smartlink                        -      -   
o Wireless: +2 Dice Pool to Smartgun Weapons                                 
Cyberears                        1      A   
 Damper                        -      -   
Internal Air-Tank                        1      A   
o Wireless: Activating/Deactivating Free Action                                 
Reaction Enhancers                        2      A   
Muscle Replacemnt                        2      A   
                                 
BIOWARE                        RTG      GRD   
Sleep Regulator                        -      A   
                                 
LIFESTYLE (6,500¥)                                 
Mid Lifestyle (6,500¥ a Month)                                 
                                 
ARMOR (5,420¥)                               RTG   
o Armor Jacket                              12   
 Fire Resistance                              6   
 Nonconductivity                              6   
o Armor Clothing                              6   
 (Business Casual)                              -   
 Concealed Pocket (x4)                              -   
 Faraday Pocket (x2)                              -   
o Armor Clothing                              6   
 (Casual)                              -   
 Concealed Pocket (x4)                              -   
 Faraday Pocket (x2)                              -   

                                 
INTERNAL COMMLINK                                 
Transys Avalon (DR 6)                                 
Data: 6     Firewall: 7                                 
Apps: Diagnostics, Ticker                                 
Program Carrier Modification                                 
Virtual Machine                                 
Encryption                                 
Browse                                 
Matrix CM OOO OOO OOO OO                                 
o Running Silent (-2 DP Matrix Actions)                                 
o Hot Sim (Initiative: 11 + 4D6), +2DP                                 
o Cold Sim (Initiative: 11 + 3D6)                                 
                                 
ID (10,000¥)                  TYPE            RTG   
_______________                  Real SIN            -   
_______________                  Fake SIN            4   
                                 
GEAR (1060¥)                                 
o Medkit (Rating 3)                                 
o Wireless: +3 Dice to First Aid Skill                                 
o Concealable Holster (Pred)                                 
o Wireless: -2 to Concealability                                 
o Survival Knife (Acc: 5, 7P, -1AP)                                 
o Wireless: GPS, Can make Commcalls                                 
o Renraku Sensei (DR 3)                                 
o Running Silent (-2 DP Matrix Actions)                                 

                                                                                                                                                      
RANGED WEAPONS (4370¥)                              CON      ACC         DAM         AP      RC      MODE               MODS                                                                     
o Ares Predator V                              0      5(7)         8P         -1      1      SA               Smartgun                                                                     
o (Clip) Reg OOOOO OOOOO OOOOO OOO     o (Clip) Reg OOOOO OOOOO OOOOO OOO     o (Clip) Reg OOOOO OOOOO OOOOO OOO                                                                                                                                                      
o Ares Alpha                              6      5(7)         11P         -2      2      oSA oBF oFA               Smartgun, Sling                                                                     
o (Clip) Reg 88888 88888 88888 88888 8     o (Clip) Reg 88888 88888 88888 88888 8     o (Clip) Reg 88888 88888 88888 88888 8                                                                                                                                                       
 w/ Grenade Launcher                              -      4(6)         Gren         Gren      -      SS               Smartgun                                                                     
o (Clip) High Explosive (16P, -2AP, -2/m) OOOOOO                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                      
CONTACTS (16)                  TYPE                     METATYPE               LOCATION                        CON      LOY      NOTES                                                            
Smiley                  Fixer                     Ork               Downtown Seattle                        5      2      CAS Accent,Infectious Tusky Smile, Former Shadowrunner                                                            
Tank                  Decker                     Ogre               London                        3      4      _______________________________________________________                                                            
Fay                  Merc                     Elf               Aztlan                        3      4      _______________________________________________________                                                            
Kris                  Nanny/Stripper                     Troll               Puyallup                        2      5      _______________________________________________________                                                            
                                                                                                                                                      

[/spoiler]






« Last Edit: <06-24-16/1313:20> by Bushw4cker »
"Stupid men are often capable of things the clever would not dare to contemplate." -Terry Pratchett

Glyph

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« Reply #1 on: <06-28-16/1838:40> »
The character has a nice, organic feel to it, but would not fit some campaigns.  This is a character best suited for low-powered noir-ish games, where three thugs with lead pipes are a threat, where the Johnson is likelier to be a suit wanting you to get some dirt on his soon-to-be-ex-wife (rather than someone rolling the dice pools of the Fixer or Johnson NPCs in the main book).  This is the power level of sample characters such as the occult investigator, the sprawl ganger, or the bounty hunter.

In a more "traditional" Shadowrun game, your dice pools are just too low, even for a generalist.  So, be sure what kind of game it is.  If everyone else is more min-maxed, you probably won't have a lot of fun.

Kuirem

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« Reply #2 on: <06-29-16/1050:49> »
Elven Face is the most overatted character. Sure they will throw 20 something dice to deal with Johson when it comes to deal with a ganger he won't even have the opportunity to throw any dice because he won't deal with a fancy pants like him. Humans and Dwarf on the other hand lose 2 charisma but have the advantage of being able to fit (almost) everywhere. Ork finally lose 1 extra charisma but have 2 advantages : people don't expect them to be face (always good to take someone by suprise) and they are especially good to deal with most gangs being the perfect "Street Face". They are also common enough to be accepted even in high society, except maybe humanis meeting but so are the elves.

I did make an Ork Face more or less for that reason, look at the character named Nightgale in that folder. It is not completely finished but the idea is that he is an national star ork singer that disguiss himself to go shadowrunning. There is so much available bonuses around to Social test, especially if you run with Run Faster, Run & Gun, Street Grimoire (for Adepts) and/or Chrome and Flesh (for Cyberface) that your natural maximum does not matter that much.

Now for your character if you want him to be a face you still need to invest in it, raise his charisma to at least 5 and put your main skills (Intimidation, Negotiation, Con) to 6. From what you are describing you will probably use Intimidation skill the most so it's fine because even if you have like 3 less dice compared to an elf you will get a bunch of bonuses in it because you are an Ork, check the Social Modifiers table p.140 SR5 but you should at least be able to get the "Character is physically imposing" modifier.

If you want him more to be a fighting character with some face capabilities your actual 4 Charisma and Intimidation should be enough but you will want to pump more into physical stats and consider dropping Aged as it is a pretty harsh penalty and get a better dice pool into fighting. Reaction Enhancer should be replaced by Wired Reflexe or Synaptic booster.

Whatever you chose do not forget that all character should be really good at at least one thing. It's fine if you want to go Jack-of-all-Trade with the rest but if you can't do your role well you will be a liability for the team. By the way the JACK OF ALL TRADES, MASTER OF NONE quality does not apply during character creation so if you want it to count you will need to negotiate with your GM, again.

Using Kinesics and Psychology Knowledge skills in Social Situations?

It all depends on the GM so make sure to discuss with him if he would allow this. Assuming you are able to find something useful you could get some bonuses but do not expect one extra dice per success, a couple of dice at best and only if you use well the given information. If you have Data Trails you should look at the Profiler quality (p.46), it is something a bit similar to what you describe and maybe you can tweak it a bit with your GM.

Can he be 50 in Ork Years?

I would allow this as nothing in the rule said it does not work for non-human metahuman. Of course for elves it might be a tad more complicated but Ork get old as well (a bit faster ofc). As always it is up to your GM to allow this or not.

Dependent Negative Quality Rating 3. I have Nanny Troll Contact for babysitting. (Connection 2, Loyalty 5), could this help offset some of the disadvantages of Quality? I am wondering what the opinions would be on allowing this?

Technically Dependent is a simple increase of Lifestyle cost and given the karma it gives it should more or less stay here. The fluff text add that it is a strain on the character time but let's be honest, no one including the GM wants to have to interrupt the mission because of that Quality and it should cost much more than 3 karma per level if it did imo. As always see with your GM, personally  I would completely allow the use of a nanny, especially since you "bought" her with karma, I might even count it into the 30% increase of Lifestyle cost. Of course the Quality can add some interesting roleplay but it should not be something that can easily ruin missions as the text seems to suggest.
« Last Edit: <06-29-16/1053:23> by Kuirem »

Bushw4cker

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« Reply #3 on: <06-29-16/2353:13> »
Thanks for the Replies! Especially the detailed response by Kuirem.

Quote
The character has a nice, organic feel to it, but would not fit some campaigns.  This is a character best suited for low-powered noir-ish games, where three thugs with lead pipes are a threat, where the Johnson is likelier to be a suit wanting you to get some dirt on his soon-to-be-ex-wife (rather than someone rolling the dice pools of the Fixer or Johnson NPCs in the main book).  This is the power level of sample characters such as the occult investigator, the sprawl ganger, or the bounty hunter.

In a more "traditional" Shadowrun game, your dice pools are just too low, even for a generalist.  So, be sure what kind of game it is.  If everyone else is more min-maxed, you probably won't have a lot of fun.

I kind of disagree about being best suited for low-powered noir-ish games. I think a lot of people tend to post more min-maxed characters with crazy dice pools on this forums. (Imho, I think there should be balance between the horrible archetypes in the book and the multiple 20+ dice pool insane characters, some people like to post and play.) I think this character definitely works best with a larger team, and would have to be played smartly to be effective. (Roleplaying, Small Unit Tactics, Suppressive Fire, Intelligence Gathering.) I have played and GMed many games, where if a character would have just had the right active skill, knowledge, language, even at rating 1, it would have made a huge difference in the run, and I can think of a few runs off the top of my head, where having even basic level of a skill, could have meant success and not failure. (If even one of the characters in our last run I played, spoke Russian, we probably wouldn't have lost a teammate and failed.)

With First Impression, Profiler, and Consummate Professional, this character can get up to +8 Dice to use in Social Tests with Mr. Johnson. With 12 Dice for Perception, ability to speak 15 different languages, lots of knowledge skills, he's not going miss much. Also character is going to be way better suited if the run takes the team to some exotic location. Lastly, with so many skills linked to relatively high attributes, and by having a decent Edge, in an emergency, character can usually throw at least 10+ dice if needed.
 
Quote
Now for your character if you want him to be a face you still need to invest in it, raise his charisma to at least 5 and put your main skills (Intimidation, Negotiation, Con) to 6. From what you are describing you will probably use Intimidation skill the most so it's fine because even if you have like 3 less dice compared to an elf you will get a bunch of bonuses in it because you are an Ork, check the Social Modifiers table p.140 SR5 but you should at least be able to get the "Character is physically imposing" modifier.

What about raising Edge?  I think high Intuition fits character concept too much to lower stat. 4 is still pretty high for Ork...

Quote
If you want him more to be a fighting character with some face capabilities your actual 4 Charisma and Intimidation should be enough but you will want to pump more into physical stats and consider dropping Aged as it is a pretty harsh penalty and get a better dice pool into fighting. Reaction Enhancer should be replaced by Wired Reflexe or Synaptic booster.

Wired Reflexes in 4th Ed. > 5th Ed. Initiative 11 + 1D6 means, unless he's injured or impaired in some other way, always going to get to go twice a turn. He's more like a Commander in combat, maximizing teammates potential. That is part of the reason I took Perfect Timing (Having that extra Free Action I thought would be nice.),

Small Unit Tactics 6. I don't know if you read any of the Run & Gun section on Tactics... I've posted a few below... Yes, definitely works well with others..

[spoiler]BOUNDING OVERWATCH
Successes required: 4
Description: This is the classic leapfrog maneuver
used when a unit must move while under fire. This can
be used as both an offensive or defensive maneuver. It
involves one combatant providing cover or suppressive
fire to pin down enemy combatants from a protected
position (see p. 179, SR5) as other members of her team
move to another position. This process is repeated, with
team members alternating roles, until either the objective
is achieved or the team is clear of the engagement
area. Note that locating sufficient cover is recommended
while attempting this maneuver, but is not necessary.
Benefits: If suppression fire is successful, the moving
elements of the team/unit receive a +3 bonus to defensive
actions while any enemy combatants receive a –3
penalty for any offensive actions.

MARCHING FIRE
Successes required: 6
Description: This tactic is straightforward: The team
maneuvers as a unit towards a objective, laying down
suppressive fire as they advance. When the team is close
enough to the objective, the steady advance becomes a
charge. In most military situations, this is accompanied
by either artillery or heavy weapons support and is used
as a final push against an objective. The serious drawback
to this tactic from a small unit standpoint is it was
designed for use by military forces with lots of expendable
personnel available. The Marching Fire maneuver
requires you leave any cover behind, counting on the
volume of your suppressive fire to keep the enemy from
shooting you. Obviously fully automatic weapons are
best for this maneuver. At one time firing while advancing
greatly reduced accuracy, but with modern technology
this is no longer a significant factor. The team leader
doesn’t coordinate in this maneuver much beyond designating
the target and giving the order.
Benefits: +4 for all attack rolls with semi-auto, burstfire,
or fully automatic firearms.

CROSSFIRE
Successes required: 6
Description: This maneuver consists of placing two
elements of the team into separate positions from which
both can envelope a single target from two different directions.
The team leader must first identify suitable locations
for his people to take up firing positions (solo
Small Group Tactics + Intuition Test, Simple Action). The
second step is maneuvering the team members into
those positions (normal Combat Maneuver Test). This
can be done either before combat as part of an ambush,
or during combat as a tactical maneuver.
Benefits: Attackers on the team receive a +3 attack
bonus.
[/spoiler]

Quote
It all depends on the GM so make sure to discuss with him if he would allow this. Assuming you are able to find something useful you could get some bonuses but do not expect one extra dice per success, a couple of dice at best and only if you use well the given information. If you have Data Trails you should look at the Profiler quality (p.46), it is something a bit similar to what you describe and maybe you can tweak it a bit with your GM.

He already has Profiler Quality.  If you were the GM, what would you do, in regards to what bonuses Kinesics and Psychology would give? (Both are Rating 6 btw..  PROFESSIONAL You could easily sell your skills on the open market. This is themaximum skill level for starting player characters.


Thanks again for the comments. )



« Last Edit: <06-30-16/0026:03> by Bushw4cker »
"Stupid men are often capable of things the clever would not dare to contemplate." -Terry Pratchett

Kuirem

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« Reply #4 on: <06-30-16/0145:04> »
I guess he could get away with 4 charisma but do not forget that Social test are opposed so every dice count. If you at least give him 6 + specialization into a couple of Social skills it should be enough though. As you said not every table play min/maxed characters.

Wired Reflexe was only if you wanted to turn him more into a combat character than a Face. 11 + 1D6 is fine for a non-combat.

Sorry I must have missed the profiler Quality. The problem with knowledge skills interfering with Dice pool of Active Skills is that it can quickly start to be abused and you would start throwing 3+ roll at every NPC you meet. I would consider that his ability to use Psychology is already included in his high social skills and only use Psychology and Kinesics when there is a decent reason to do so. Eventually if you are in a situation where the NPC might be sensible to Psy or in a decent roleplay I will apply a bonus of Psy or Kinesics / 3.

Bushw4cker

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« Reply #5 on: <06-30-16/0310:18> »
I guess he could get away with 4 charisma but do not forget that Social test are opposed so every dice count. If you at least give him 6 + specialization into a couple of Social skills it should be enough though. As you said not every table play min/maxed characters.

Wired Reflexe was only if you wanted to turn him more into a combat character than a Face. 11 + 1D6 is fine for a non-combat.

Sorry I must have missed the profiler Quality. The problem with knowledge skills interfering with Dice pool of Active Skills is that it can quickly start to be abused and you would start throwing 3+ roll at every NPC you meet. I would consider that his ability to use Psychology is already included in his high social skills and only use Psychology and Kinesics when there is a decent reason to do so. Eventually if you are in a situation where the NPC might be sensible to Psy or in a decent roleplay I will apply a bonus of Psy or Kinesics / 3.
   

Thanks for the response.

Maybe make opposessed test for Psychology?  Chance to get some bonus dice, but also chance for NPC to get bonus....Using reverse Psychology??

Kinesics vs Composure test..

More I think about it, more I like the idea of opposed test.. It's what they did with Small Tactics in Run & Gun, when one team trying to counter another's Tactics.
« Last Edit: <06-30-16/0321:36> by Bushw4cker »
"Stupid men are often capable of things the clever would not dare to contemplate." -Terry Pratchett

Glyph

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« Reply #6 on: <06-30-16/0315:06> »
Previously (SR3, I think), knowledge skills could act as a supplement to active skills.  In SR5, they provide the background needed to complete some actions but don't directly add dice.  Even judge intentions is an Attribute + Attribute test.

They are for things like noticing a sign indicating that a certain gang is protecting an establishment, recognizing an out-of-town senior Yakuza member, or impressing the Johnson with your knowledge of elven wines.

That said, social skills have a metric ton of conditional modifiers, so a successful roll on one or both of those knowledge skills might give you some hints as to how to go about getting some of those conditional modifiers.  Without concrete rules, though, how useful those two skills are will really depend on the GM.