[baronspam]

So as I continue to explore the new edition, I had some questions on Mystic Adepts.  There have been some vitriolic posts on the subject lately, I don't mean to reignite any of those issue, I just want to make sure I understand how they work in this edition.  My understanding is as follow-

Mystic adepts can use Sorcery, Conjuring, and Enchanting like a full magician.

They can never astral project, and they can only astral perceive if they take an adept power for it.

They can buy adept power points at character creation for 5 karma per.  More power points could be gained by initiation.

Rather than trying to make a half-magician half-adept, this works best for a character concept that either a magician with some synergistic adept powers, or an adept with some synergistic spells. 

Does this sound correct?  Any major errors in my understanding of the rules?  Also, if anyone had a build that did something interesting with the MA rules, I would love to see it.

Thanks

Baron

PS any reason a MA could not use a Qi focus?

[mrcatman]

I generally agree with your assessment.

One build I've been toying with is the skillful mystic adept as investigator shaman mage primary (focus on detection/manip/illusion spells) with adept powers focusing on acting as often as possible (initiative) and/or doing the "always on" important things so he doesn't have to rely on spells for it.

I haven't worked it all out yet, but something like:

This build gives him a very reasonable chance to get 21+ on initiative checks and act 3 times per combat turn (based on an initiative of 10+4d6, plus another +4 using adrenaline boost, which is a free action and fairly easy drain to resist). It also gives him "face" skills/spells and spirits just for fun.

A-Magic R6 (2x R5 skills, +10 spells)
B-Skills (36/5)
C-Attributes (16)
D-Human (3 SAP) = EDG 2 to 5
E-nuyen

BOD 3, AGI 3, REA 3 [6], STR 2*
WIL 4, LOG 2, INT 4, CHA 4
*Raised from 1 to 2 using creation karma (below)

25 starting karma + 25 karma from negative qualities (skip positive qualities) = 50 creation karma
30 spent on 6 PPs
10 spent on STR 1 to 2
10 spent on +2 spells known (now 12, max for MAG rating 6)

Adept Powers (6 PP):
Improved Reflexes 3 [3.5pp] (+3 REA, +3d6 Init Dice)
Improved Sense 2 [0.5pp] (thermo, low-light)
Adrenaline Boost 2 [0.5pp] (+4 Init, only drain 2 with your 7 BOD+WIL dice)
Combat Sense 1 [0.5pp] +1 defense tests and free Perception to avoid surprise (uh, yeah!)
Astral Perception [1.0pp] blast astral beings, assense, analyze magic spell, etc.

Spells (12):
Control Thoughts: very powerful, hard to resist (make foe shoot another foe)
Manabolt: blast astral beings via astral perception (or those on physical plane for that matter)
Fireball: area damage, only 3 hits required to land it
Heal: swap for Trid Phantasm if another PC has it already
Physical Mask: hide in plain sight, sneak into places to investigate
Influence: these are not the droids you are looking for... let me in that door...
Mind Probe: what really happened here... what's that safe code again?...
Clairaudience: what are those guards talking about in the other room?
Clairvoyance: who's behind that door guarding the thing we want?
Analyze Truth: don't B.S. me, man...
Analyze Device: oh, that's what this does...
Analyze Magic: let me tell you what that's for...

Skills:
(two free MAG-related): spellcasting 5, counterspelling 5
(5 in skill groups): influence 5 [etiquette/leadership/negotiation, oh my]
(36 individual): spellcasting 5 to 6 [specialize in manipulation] (2 pts), counterspelling 5 to 6 (1 pt), binding 4, summoning 5, con 5, impersonation 5, perception 6, assensing 4, arcana 4

[EDIT: Skills revised due to comment below]

This makes for a solid face, IMHO. This gives him a decent casting pool of 14 for control thoughts (your go-to) and influence, and 12 for the rest. Resist drain pool of 8 isn't spectacular, but it's workable. During play, grab initiation (centering) and a centering foci to start helping with that. Good news is that most of these spells are already hard to resist, so you can toss off lower force spells to keep the drain lower in early play.

Knowledge Skills (12 pts):
Forensics 6, Psychology 1, Sociology 1, Parazoology 1, Biology 1, Chemistry 1, Ballistics 1

Contacts (12 pts):
Seattle Police Detective (C 3, L 4); owes you his life
Fixer (C 2, L 3)

Future advancement:
Generally aiming for +spells known, +spellcasting skill, +initiation, +MAG, and +foci (centering, power, sustaining)
Initiation: more improved senses via adept points would be fun (select sound filter, etc.), but I'd like use the first 2 grades of initiation for centering (resist drain, stacks with centering foci) and masking (to conceal self/foci).
Spells: Likely grab Mob Mind, Improved Invisibility, Resist Pain, Levitate and Trid Phantasm. They are just too much fun. Barriers possibly. More spells known adds huge flexibility and fun factor.

[Michael Chandra]

PS any reason a MA could not use a Qi focus?

No reason whatsoever, that's perfectly allowed.

And yes, a Mystic Adept should focus on a single class and use the other side to boost it. I think they work really well for Combat Mages, because they can boost their Reaction and Initiative Dice with PP, as well as boost armor or dodge dice. This lets them function in the front line.

[Beaumis]

Skills:
(two free MAG-related): spellcasting 5, counterspelling 5
(5 in skill groups): influence 4, athletics 1 [avoid defaulting in gymnastics/run/swim]
(36 individual): spellcasting 5 to 6 [specialize in manipulation] (2 pts), counterspelling 5 to 6 (1 pt), etiquette 4 to 5 (1 pts), negotiation 4 to 5 (1 pts), [leadership stays at 4], binding 5, summoning 5, con 5, impersonation 5, perception 6, assensing 5

Sadly, the underlined part is not allowed at chargen. You cannot break skillgroups until step 7 and you cannot use "normal" points to purchase skill group ranks, not even if you spend three points to raise each skill.

Skill group points may not be used to purchase individual skills and vice versa. In addition, skill groups cannot be broken up in this step, so individual skill points cannot raise the ratings of skills purchased as a group. (Note that skill groups can be broken up in Step Seven: Spend Your Left Over Karma (p. 98).
P. 88 Core

You can avoid this by taking influence 5 and shaving off a point somewhere to buy all three skills in the athletics skill group.

[sn0mm1s]

I generally agree with your assessment.

One build I've been toying with is the skillful mystic adept as investigator shaman mage primary (focus on detection/manip/illusion spells) with adept powers focusing on acting as often as possible (initiative) and/or doing the "always on" important things so he doesn't have to rely on spells for it.

I haven't worked it all out yet, but something like:

This build gives him a very reasonable chance to get 21+ on initiative checks and act 3 times per combat turn (based on an initiative of 10+4d6, plus another +4 using adrenaline boost, which is a free action and fairly easy drain to resist). It also gives him "face" skills/spells and spirits just for fun.

A-Magic R6 (2x R5 skills, +10 spells)
B-Skills (36/5)
C-Attributes (16)
D-Human (3 SAP) = EDG 2 to 5
E-nuyen

BOD 3, AGI 3, REA 3 [6], STR 2*
WIL 4, LOG 2, INT 4, CHA 4
*Raised from 1 to 2 using creation karma (below)

25 starting karma + 25 karma from negative qualities (skip positive qualities) = 50 creation karma
30 spent on 6 PPs
10 spent on STR 1 to 2
10 spent on +2 spells known (now 12, max for MAG rating 6)

Adept Powers (6 PP):
Improved Reflexes 3 [3.5pp] (+3 REA, +3d6 Init Dice)
Improved Sense 2 [0.5pp] (thermo, low-light)
Adrenaline Boost 2 [0.5pp] (+4 Init, only drain 2 with your 7 BOD+WIL dice)
Combat Sense 1 [0.5pp] +1 defense tests and free Perception to avoid surprise (uh, yeah!)
Astral Perception [1.0pp] blast astral beings, assense, analyze magic spell, etc.

Spells (12):
Control Thoughts: very powerful, hard to resist (make foe shoot another foe)
Manabolt: blast astral beings via astral perception (or those on physical plane for that matter)
Fireball: area damage, only 3 hits required to land it
Heal: swap for Trid Phantasm if another PC has it already
Physical Mask: hide in plain sight, sneak into places to investigate
Influence: these are not the droids you are looking for... let me in that door...
Mind Probe: what really happened here... what's that safe code again?...
Clairaudience: what are those guards talking about in the other room?
Clairvoyance: who's behind that door guarding the thing we want?
Analyze Truth: don't B.S. me, man...
Analyze Device: oh, that's what this does...
Analyze Magic: let me tell you what that's for...

Skills:
(two free MAG-related): spellcasting 5, counterspelling 5
(5 in skill groups): influence 4, athletics 1 [avoid defaulting in gymnastics/run/swim]
(36 individual): spellcasting 5 to 6 [specialize in manipulation] (2 pts), counterspelling 5 to 6 (1 pt), etiquette 4 to 5 (1 pts), negotiation 4 to 5 (1 pts), [leadership stays at 4], binding 5, summoning 5, con 5, impersonation 5, perception 6, assensing 5

This makes for a solid face, IMHO. This gives him a decent casting pool of 14 for control thoughts (your go-to) and influence, and 12 for the rest. Resist drain pool of 8 isn't spectacular, but it's workable. During play, grab initiation (centering) and a centering foci to start helping with that. Good news is that most of these spells are already hard to resist, so you can toss off lower force spells to keep the drain lower in early play.

Knowledge Skills (12 pts):
Forensics 6, Psychology 1, Sociology 1, Parazoology 1, Biology 1, Chemistry 1, Ballistics 1

Contacts (12 pts):
Seattle Police Detective (C 3, L 4); owes you his life
Fixer (C 2, L 3)

Future advancement:
Generally aiming for +spells known, +spellcasting skill, +initiation, +MAG, and +foci (centering, power, sustaining)
Initiation: more improved senses via adept points would be fun (select sound filter, etc.), but I'd like use the first 2 grades of initiation for centering (resist drain, stacks with centering foci) and masking (to conceal self/foci).
Spells: Likely grab Mob Mind, Improved Invisibility, Resist Pain, Levitate and Trid Phantasm. There just too much fun. Barriers possibly. More spells known adds huge flexibility and fun factor.

The adept powers, Adrenaline Boost and Improved Reflexes don't stack.

[mrcatman]

Sadly, the underlined part is not allowed at chargen. You cannot break skillgroups until step 7 and you cannot use "normal" points to purchase skill group ranks, not even if you spend three points to raise each skill.

Nice catch! Thanks for that. I've updated the skills above.

The adept powers, Adrenaline Boost and Improved Reflexes don't stack.

I was unaware of that. I thought "Initiative" and "Initiative Score" are two different things. This might be one of those things that is up to the DM to decide?

[All4BigGuns]

This one might be up to the DM to decide. Improved Reflexes says it doesn't stack with increases to Initiative. Adrenaline Boost boosts your Initiative Score. To my understanding, those are two different things.

Someone get The Book. Such shenanigans as posted here deserve several smacks with it.

[Beaumis]

This one might be up to the DM to decide. Improved Reflexes says it doesn't stack with increases to Initiative. Adrenaline Boost boosts your Initiative Score. To my understanding, those are two different things.

Someone get The Book. Such shenanigans as posted here deserve several smacks with it.

Hell no. I love these shenanigans. Also, you really don't want to hit people for reading the rules correctly.

Initiative determines the order in which characters act, as well as how often they act during a single Combat Turn. Initiative is based on three factors: Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice. [...]
P. 159 Core

Adept powers, 'Ware, Increased Reflexes, they all increase the initiative attribute and initiative dice. When those dice are rolled it is an initiative test and that test determines the initiative score. Adrenaline Boost affects the initiative score directly. Unless you read "affects initiative" in the adept power as the section in the combat chapter rather than the attribute, there is no reason for the two not to stack.

I agree that even the initiative chapter is somewhat murky on what means what, but his reading is pretty valid to my eyes, as both initiative attribute and initiative score are well defined terms.

Also, if they didn't stack it would be kind of a pointless power. I'd agree with you if it didn't have the drain though.

[All4BigGuns]

This one might be up to the DM to decide. Improved Reflexes says it doesn't stack with increases to Initiative. Adrenaline Boost boosts your Initiative Score. To my understanding, those are two different things.

Someone get The Book. Such shenanigans as posted here deserve several smacks with it.

Hell no. I love these shenanigans. Also, you really don't want to hit people for reading the rules correctly.

That isn't "reading the rules correctly" though. It is twisting the rules in a ridiculously abusive manner.

The only difference between Initiative and Initiative Score is in notation. The first is notated as (Total of Reaction + Intuition) + Xd6 and the second is notated as (Total of Reaction + Intuition) + (Result of Xd6). The are both the same and thus the two powers do not stack unless one is intentionally misreading things to attempt to make them do so.

[sn0mm1s]

This one might be up to the DM to decide. Improved Reflexes says it doesn't stack with increases to Initiative. Adrenaline Boost boosts your Initiative Score. To my understanding, those are two different things.

Someone get The Book. Such shenanigans as posted here deserve several smacks with it.

Hell no. I love these shenanigans. Also, you really don't want to hit people for reading the rules correctly.

Initiative determines the order in which characters act, as well as how often they act during a single Combat Turn. Initiative is based on three factors: Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice. [...]
P. 159 Core

Adept powers, 'Ware, Increased Reflexes, they all increase the initiative attribute and initiative dice. When those dice are rolled it is an initiative test and that test determines the initiative score. Adrenaline Boost affects the initiative score directly. Unless you read "affects initiative" in the adept power as the section in the combat chapter rather than the attribute, there is no reason for the two not to stack.

I agree that even the initiative chapter is somewhat murky on what means what, but his reading is pretty valid to my eyes, as both initiative attribute and initiative score are well defined terms.

Also, if they didn't stack it would be kind of a pointless power. I'd agree with you if it didn't have the drain though.

Well, it really isn't any different than Improved Attribute and Attribute Boost. One is permanent but costs more PP, the other is temporary but causes drain. Having a high rank of one or the other can render the other one more or less pointless.

As for Adrenaline Boost it isn't pointless - it is a guaranteed result. For instance, suppose I make a Troll Adept with Attribute Boost Body, he could very well have 18 dice to soak drain. Let's play the odds and say he will bet on soaking 6 damage so he gets 6 ranks of Adrenaline Boost for 1.5PP. That +12 from Adrenaline Boost is, on average going to give you about the same boost as Improved Reflexes 3 (+13.5 for 2PP less). If said, Troll used those 2PP for Improved Attr: Reaction (which doesn't stack with Imp. Reflexes since it is a magical power that increases initiative) The troll, on average, would be getting a +14 on average. But really, the point of that would be to free up PP to spend on different powers. You are basically trading drain for PP and keeping the same average init score.

That said, I have always read initiative as described in the combat section.

[ZeConster]

I was involved in a pretty heated argument about that a while back, with the other side basically arguing that all uses of "Initiative" which don't add "Attribute" (including the first word in the "Initiative" section on page 52, even though there's no page reference to page 159) refer to the general concept of Initiative on page 159 instead of the attribute, and that therefore Improved Reflexes doesn't stack with Adrenaline Boost. I disagreed, partially because all the other attributes aren't always followed by "Attribute" and the incompatibility sentences tend to come right after a sentence where Reaction and Initiative are used in a way that obviously refers to the Initiative Attribute.

Anyway, while others may strongly disagree, I believe Adrenaline Boost is compatible with stuff that it wouldn't be compatible with if it simply boosted your Initiative attribute, because your Initiative attribute, Initiative Dice and Initiative Score are seperate things (and even if your GM decides to rule against it, Increase Reflexes and Adrenaline Boost will still stack).



sn0mm1s: the only way I see how Attribute Boost and Improved Physical Attribute might make each other pointless is if you end up hitting your augmented maximum: far as I know, they're compatible with each other.

[sn0mm1s]

I was involved in a pretty heated argument about that a while back, with the other side basically arguing that all uses of "Initiative" which don't add "Attribute" (including the first word in the "Initiative" section on page 52, even though there's no page reference to page 159) refer to the general concept of Initiative on page 159 instead of the attribute, and that therefore Improved Reflexes doesn't stack with Adrenaline Boost. I disagreed, partially because all the other attributes aren't always followed by "Attribute" and the incompatibility sentences tend to come right after a sentence where Reaction and Initiative are used in a way that obviously refers to the Initiative Attribute.

Anyway, while others may strongly disagree, I believe Adrenaline Boost is compatible with stuff that it wouldn't be compatible with if it simply boosted your Initiative attribute, because your Initiative attribute, Initiative Dice and Initiative Score are seperate things (and even if your GM decides to rule against it, Increase Reflexes and Adrenaline Boost will still stack).

Yeah, it pretty much depends on how you interpret Initiative defined on pg 159. I see Initiative being a sum of those 3 aspects (attribute, score, and dice).

sn0mm1s: the only way I see how Attribute Boost and Improved Physical Attribute might make each other pointless is if you end up hitting your augmented maximum: far as I know, they're compatible with each other.

They are compatible - but it is pretty easy to hit your augmented maximum if you put more than 1PP into an attribute and .25 into a boost. That is all that is meant.

[Beaumis]

That isn't "reading the rules correctly" though. It is twisting the rules in a ridiculously abusive manner.

The only difference between Initiative and Initiative Score is in notation. The first is notated as (Total of Reaction + Intuition) + Xd6 and the second is notated as (Total of Reaction + Intuition) + (Result of Xd6). The are both the same and thus the two powers do not stack unless one is intentionally misreading things to attempt to make them do so.

Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. While you are completely right in your assertion that the differences are small, the book takes pains to distinguish between the two by placing them in separate paragraphs, with separate headings, each explaining individually what the term means. It even goes into details what happens to your initiative score when your initiative attribute changes.

If a character’s Initiative attribute changes, immediately apply the difference as a positive or negative modifier to the character’s Initiative Score. This new Initiative Score applies to all remaining actions in that Combat Turn. So a character with Initiative 8 and an Initiative Score of 11 who activates an implant that changes his Initiative to 10 (+2) immediately raises his Initiative Score to 13 (11 + 2).
(P. 160 Core

It doesn't get much clearer than this. A rule that concerns both terms explicitly states that changing one changes the other as a result. The two couldn't be more explicitly separate than this.

The adrenaline boost power explicitly changes a character's initiative score, while the increased reflexes power increases the initiative attribute.

Plain and simply, initiative is an attribute. Your initiative score is a value that results from a test of the initiative attribute. Just like hits are a value that results from the test of a skill. Two definitions, two statements that affect different definitions and no explicit statement that the two do not stack. I see no abuse here, only RAW. And personally, I think it's RAI as well.