Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Character creation and critique => Topic started by: DeathofVirtue on <12-10-16/0822:05>
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Ok this may get a little long winded and may have subject matter of a mature nature (You have been warned), it's a concept I had for an old rigger of mine several years ago and shelved untill I dug it up tidying up old npc sheets into a new folder system.
There a few points and assertions I need to make for the initial setup.
First, although it is possible to have drone cyberlimbs most cyberlims take input from what I assume is the nervous system of the individual they are attached to. Logically this means that the technology level has reached the point where electrochemical signals can be converted into binary/other tech input, it's a fair assumption the reverse is also true letting the ware send tactile or other data back to the nervous system, for example, cybereyes.
Cloning is a developed technology in shadowrun.
It is possible to stifle or stop brain development of a clone while it's growing or cause brain death/removal before consciousness develops. Ordinarily this would cause body death unless core functions were taken over by life support or continued to recieve the signals the brain would normally send telling the heart to beat etc.
Either by using tech to send a signal to those vital functions or by using life support it is logically possible to keep a body with no brain alive provided those vital functions continue and it gets it's required nutrition and oxygen intake etc.
Seeing as I already established ware can convert binary/other input to electrochemical nervous system signals and vice versa it seems logical a drone pilot system could be inserted in the place of a brain with full or near full functionality provided it's rating is high enough, a low tier pilot might only be able to handle vital functions but a high tier pilot is likely able to do much more.
It's possible for somone with a VCR to dive into drones. The space requirements for just the rigger module and send recieve module are quite small, after all, they can fit into a microdrone.
Logically it follows it is possible for a moraly questionable rigger with sufficient resources to create a braindead/removed clone with a pilot system that he can dive in to or run from an rcc meaning he has the capability to directly control "spare" bodies that he can use to aid remaining annonymous, infiltrate corps as employees etc
Physical stats while dived in would obviously be those of the clone, mental stats should be his own. Skills would also be his own.
Obviously there are drawbacks to this as well as benefits such as needing to use an rcc to dive in, signal range, noise, dumpshock/feedback and all the other stuff.
What are your thoughts and opinions? Yes I know it's a very dodgy prospect morally but I don't see any gaping holes in my logical process or the feasability...
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The idea ultimately fails due to the fact that clones don't have developed brains.
You could find a bunch of corpses and MAYBE get it to work with stirrup interfaces (as messed up as that sounds).
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You fail to mention how not having a developed brain causes this plan to fail, just that it somehow does. I have explained how a pilot can take over/replace the functions the brain would usually run, demonstrated tech is sufficiently advanced to give and recieve signals etc what specifically about removing the brain that I haven't covered causes this to fail? I mean everything it does is effectively being replaced at this point the clone body has no actual need of one.
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Yeah, posted without fully reading your post, and explaining.
The issue with clone brains is that they don't even develop the ability to control automated processes, like heart beating and breathing.
Without those developed, the clone would fall out of the chamber, flop a bit, then die. (thanks for the description, Kane)
Doesn't matter how good of a pilot program you have if the brain does not have the connections to even control the heart and lungs.
You can't throw a car stereo into a car and expect it to play music without plugging it in.
Yes, you could replace the brain, spinal column, and the internal organs to bypass that, but at that point, you might as well use a walker with realistic features.
Now, brain-dead individuals, like coma patients, would work for conversion into biodrones.
Problem here is biometrics and DNA samples are going to go straight to someone that shouldn't be moving.
Next thing you know, your biodrone is being hunted as a shedim.
And if they connect you, ugh, say hello to, at the very least, a healthy bounty on your head.
G-Men and an open contract on your skull at the worse.
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I see the point your trying to make now, thanks for clarifying. If I may I would rather like to dismantle it piece by piece and respond.
First lets start with your proposal that a brain is; A, necessary and B, body death would occur with no brain.
The clone brain would be removed once the body reaches maturity and becomes ready for pilot installation, all of the input/output functions of a normal brain (Including autonomus functions like breathing) would be performed by the pilot at/after this point, it's a simple matter of wiring the pilot's input/output up to the spinal column using the same technology that 'ware like cybereyes and limbs already uses. This means the fact a cloned brain is braindead is basically moot, after the body is grown and pilot installed.
Now in terms of a clone actually growing/developing and staying alive prior to the pilot installation procedure, your point about the clone brain not being able to control autonomus functions such as heartbeat and breathing leading to body death would initially appear to hold some merit, however, allow me to point out some flaws with this view and a workaround or two. Firstly with technology in both the time period we are in now and shadowrun it is already possible to keep a braindead body alive using life support, regardless of if that bodys brain is sending a signal to breathe or for the heart to beat we can artificially respirate somone or bypass heart function for example. Alternatley a temporary ware could be inserted in the spinal cord during development that sends those necessary signals in place of the brain untill a pilot can be installed. Both options render the presence or lack of a brain moot from growth through to pilot installation [/b] and the above paragraph explains how it is moot after pilot installation.
In short I have demonstrated that the clone brains lack of ability to send signals or even total abscence has no effect during any stage of the procedure, in essence showing that your assertion is incorrect.
I'm curious why you think replacing the brain and internal organs would be necessary. The brain in a real person is basically a computer giving instructions to the body via the nervous system, the organs are best thought of as devices that require a signal from the nervous system to operate. If the brain is non functional those organs can still work if they recieve a signal to do their job. So you just need something that is capable of sending a signal through the nervous system to them so they continue doing their job, not a replacement, especially when my previous paragraphs are considered.
Back to you xD
P.s. I really do appreciate the input, I'm trying to be extremely thorough determining any flaws that would actually cause issues and I always enjoy a healthy debate, it's good to exercise the old grey matter!
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This was discussed in the 4e augmentation books.... and basically the end is: "the tech level isn't there".
No pilot program is "good enough" to take over the 3000+ automonic responses the body generates every minute....
THIS is why cloning is a dead end in SR (used only for organ harvesting).... And as a certain individual has dumped BILLIONS into cloning in the hopes of becoming "not paste in a jar" and has failed... well its not looking good for you either.
Basically the lore and rules say "No" to your idea... but on an even sicker note:
There was/is a vile rigger out there that has a fetish of taking perfectly normal people, kidnapping them, using tech to over-ride their motor control and mental facilities, and then uses them to commit crimes ranging from robberies to murder....
But using clones for the same idea? Nope.... by SR science, they wouldn't survive long enough for the implantation of ware - even IF the ware could do what you are hoping it could (which, by lore it can not)
What you have forgotten is that in SR, there are two sides: the Tech and the Holistic (represented by Essence).
Clones do not have an Essence rating. Which means in SR terms, they are non-functioning "meat". As soon as they come out of statis, they die. They can not accept implants and survive because "their" essence is already 0 and the implant would push them into the negatives.... and thus die.
In SR, Essence is the measure of life and how well the very 'soul' clings to said life.... Clones were never born, they were artifically grown, usually at an accelerated rate, and thus don't really have that magical/mythical 'soul' - the very spark of life - to start with...
And THIS is why cloning in SR is seen as a dead end. While technologically the clone is a perfect copy of the original, they still fail to be viable outside of the Vat they are grown in, and all atempts to keep them viable have failed.... So the only thing they are good for us limb/organ/tissue replacement - as they are a perfect genetic match for the original. Or have been genetically modified to be a 'universal' genetic match (type O donor).
(Essence is also why the infected can't get by on 'bagged' blood or 'canned' meat. They need the Essence of their meal along with the meat/blood.)
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Ahh thanks Reaver, I was fairly sure the end result would be a no but I just could not put my finger on why lol
I missed almost all of 4e, I have 3e and earlier and my 5e set is slowly growing.
Yeah I overlooked essence implications somehow, that makes a lot of sense and rebuts my argument nicely, excellent point.
I must confess the bodyjack idea had occured to me however my rigger npc in question would probably not go down the rabbit hole that far, jacking sentient beings would bring a lot of the wrong kind of attention down on him, something he would likely try and avoid given his history. However as it works for humans logically it could work for critters/animals right? If I were to assume his research into clone armies xD failed but in the process he came across the tales of this other riggers actions then I find it likely he would see that as a logical next step to his work.
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Biodrones are indeed a thing.... but probably not to the extent you are thinking of/looking for...
They are covered in the 4e book 'Running Wild'.
They have their uses and limitations... (like going insane and eating everything and everyone they can.... if you think a hellhound is nasty - try a hellhound with WR3, muscle augmentation and othroskined ballistic resistance!!!)
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That does indeed sound like a rather double edged sword. It is perfect for my needs however, the rigger npc in question started out with strong ties to my groups older characters and slowly drifted away as he became involved in the darker side of the shadows such as corp funded wetwork jobs on equality organisations, sabotaging humanitarian aid etc
He would make the odd token apperance or they might find the odd piece of evidence of his involvement in a job gone bad, nothing concrete, just subtle hints that he was still active and slipping further and further from the runners neo-anarchist ideals, hinting that he might eventually need to be dealt with if they could just get some intel on him.
He has had a couple of years of seemingly total silence now where they have heard nothing whatsoever, whats he been doing with that time? What's he after? It feels like the right time to bring him back into the forefront with a re-work, once I'm finished with my groups "Sack of Bombs" Christmas mission of course ^^.
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then the "Running Wild" book is what you want....
It's for 4e of course, but you can self-update it to 5e with a little work. Howling shadows is the 5e product, and it has some info as well.. but it not as good at Running Wild in my personal opinion when it comes to biodrones...
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I will have to add it to my list of things to buy when im recovered from my christmas spending spree then lol
Thanks for the help Reaver, I can already feel the start of the plot coming together in my head, it will be a nice excuse to crack out some of the older contacts for the new characters and bring the old runners out for a bit to stretch their legs.
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This was discussed in the 4e augmentation books.... and basically the end is: "the tech level isn't there".
No pilot program is "good enough" to take over the 3000+ automonic responses the body generates every minute....
THIS is why cloning is a dead end in SR (used only for organ harvesting).... And as a certain individual has dumped BILLIONS into cloning in the hopes of becoming "not paste in a jar" and has failed... well its not looking good for you either.
Basically the lore and rules say "No" to your idea... but on an even sicker note:
There was/is a vile rigger out there that has a fetish of taking perfectly normal people, kidnapping them, using tech to over-ride their motor control and mental facilities, and then uses them to commit crimes ranging from robberies to murder....
But using clones for the same idea? Nope.... by SR science, they wouldn't survive long enough for the implantation of ware - even IF the ware could do what you are hoping it could (which, by lore it can not)
What you have forgotten is that in SR, there are two sides: the Tech and the Holistic (represented by Essence).
Clones do not have an Essence rating. Which means in SR terms, they are non-functioning "meat". As soon as they come out of statis, they die. They can not accept implants and survive because "their" essence is already 0 and the implant would push them into the negatives.... and thus die.
In SR, Essence is the measure of life and how well the very 'soul' clings to said life.... Clones were never born, they were artifically grown, usually at an accelerated rate, and thus don't really have that magical/mythical 'soul' - the very spark of life - to start with...
And THIS is why cloning in SR is seen as a dead end. While technologically the clone is a perfect copy of the original, they still fail to be viable outside of the Vat they are grown in, and all atempts to keep them viable have failed.... So the only thing they are good for us limb/organ/tissue replacement - as they are a perfect genetic match for the original. Or have been genetically modified to be a 'universal' genetic match (type O donor).
(Essence is also why the infected can't get by on 'bagged' blood or 'canned' meat. They need the Essence of their meal along with the meat/blood.)
And yet you can play an Escaped Clone who is augmented to the nines and back... or one who is awakened. :)
So obviously they DO have an Essence Score. Otherwise both options would be totally impossible. 8)
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And yet you can play an Escaped Clone who is augmented to the nines and back... or one who is awakened. :)
So obviously they DO have an Essence Score. Otherwise both options would be totally impossible. 8)
Augmented with bioware that is implanted while in vitro.
Thinking about it now, I find it a little wierd that that life module didn't give Prototype Transhuman.
Anyway, implanting bioware while in vitro wouldn't cost essence, thus bypassing the 0 essence rule.
Can't explain why the brains of characters with that life module are developed.
Well, Tamanous organ farm, maybe they didn't have the tech to grow bodies without the brain developing.
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And yet you can play an Escaped Clone who is augmented to the nines and back... or one who is awakened. :)
So obviously they DO have an Essence Score. Otherwise both options would be totally impossible. 8)
Augmented with bioware that is implanted while in vitro.
Thinking about it now, I find it a little wierd that that life module didn't give Prototype Transhuman.
Anyway, implanting bioware while in vitro wouldn't cost essence, thus bypassing the 0 essence rule.
Can't explain why the brains of characters with that life module are developed.
Well, Tamanous organ farm, maybe they didn't have the tech to grow bodies without the brain developing.
No where does it say that an escaped clone has an Essence of 0. They are just as fully functioning and Essence ready as a normal character. And have all the options open to them that a non-clone has. :)
An Escaped Clone can have as much Cyberware implanted as any other character...
In fact... The mere existence of an Escaped Clone indicates that the party line of "non-functional whimps" is just so much BS... Clones are fully functional, but the common man adheres to the party line of non-functioning and non-viable except for parts, because it salves the conscience such that you are not actually killing "Real People" but are harvesting only organs from otherwise non-functioning tissues. It is a rationalization that allows the industry to continue. :)
In My opinion, this makes for a far more dystopian setting. :)
Additionally... Jar-Heads were capable fo using 3 types of Brain...
1. Their Own
2. A Child's, harvested for that specific purpose
3. A Clonal Brain, grown specifically for that purpose.
So, again, it is obvious that the common belief is totally and absolutely incorrect. :)
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As I recall, the "Escaped Clone" write up also says 'You're a one in a million success' and you also end up with the "wanted/hunted" quality for free.....
(Forget which book its out of to check)
As to jar-heads:
They all go insane in a matter of a few weeks, and terminal within a few months.....
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This was discussed in the 4e augmentation books.... and basically the end is: "the tech level isn't there".
No pilot program is "good enough" to take over the 3000+ automonic responses the body generates every minute....
THIS is why cloning is a dead end in SR (used only for organ harvesting).... And as a certain individual has dumped BILLIONS into cloning in the hopes of becoming "not paste in a jar" and has failed... well its not looking good for you either.
Basically the lore and rules say "No" to your idea... but on an even sicker note:
There was/is a vile rigger out there that has a fetish of taking perfectly normal people, kidnapping them, using tech to over-ride their motor control and mental facilities, and then uses them to commit crimes ranging from robberies to murder....
But using clones for the same idea? Nope.... by SR science, they wouldn't survive long enough for the implantation of ware - even IF the ware could do what you are hoping it could (which, by lore it can not)
What you have forgotten is that in SR, there are two sides: the Tech and the Holistic (represented by Essence).
Clones do not have an Essence rating. Which means in SR terms, they are non-functioning "meat". As soon as they come out of statis, they die. They can not accept implants and survive because "their" essence is already 0 and the implant would push them into the negatives.... and thus die.
In SR, Essence is the measure of life and how well the very 'soul' clings to said life.... Clones were never born, they were artifically grown, usually at an accelerated rate, and thus don't really have that magical/mythical 'soul' - the very spark of life - to start with...
And THIS is why cloning in SR is seen as a dead end. While technologically the clone is a perfect copy of the original, they still fail to be viable outside of the Vat they are grown in, and all atempts to keep them viable have failed.... So the only thing they are good for us limb/organ/tissue replacement - as they are a perfect genetic match for the original. Or have been genetically modified to be a 'universal' genetic match (type O donor).
(Essence is also why the infected can't get by on 'bagged' blood or 'canned' meat. They need the Essence of their meal along with the meat/blood.)
And yet you can play an Escaped Clone who is augmented to the nines and back... or one who is awakened. :)
So obviously they DO have an Essence Score. Otherwise both options would be totally impossible. 8)
trying to find where it says you can play as an escaped clone... been through 8 books with no luck. Could you point me to the book and page please?
I remember something to that effect, but can't remember exactly where.....
And to go back to Clones:
here is the most current write up on the matter from Chromed Flesh:
Chromed flesh page 98 - 9 (cut and pasted together)
....Nicknamed “wimps,” they have undeveloped
brains but fully developed forms, allowing you
to simply take what parts you need and leave the rest
either for later use or for eventual recycling.....
....They’re non-entities, despite the urban
legends that you hear, and no, no one can “upload their
brain” into one to gain effective immortality. You’ve
been watching too many sims.....
....Switching gears a bit, there’ve been several attempts to
rig up “wimp drones” using modified versions of biorigging
gear. You’d figure if you can rig a cat and you can
rig a roach, you could rig a wimp, but no, same problem.
The neuro-net just flat-out isn’t developed enough to take
for a ride. You get rumors that Saeder-Krupp or Proteus
has the tech (it’s always the Germans for some reason),
but no one’s ever been able to find proof—and believe
me, we’ve been hunting.....
....
Note that unlike in 4e, they never give you the stats for a Wimp/clone in 5e. For all intents and purposes, they are non playable. Nor in all my searching is there an option to be a "clone" in 5e....
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HA! found it!
Runner's companion page 97, printed 2008
Escaped Clone
Cost: 5 BP
At some point, someone made a clone from stored DNA:
maybe your parents wanted their little girl back, maybe a rich
corper thought this was his ticket to immortality, or maybe a
megacorp grew a wimp for experimentation. Maybe she was accidentally
released, saved by a kind soul, or misplaced at a clinic.
Regardless, that clone eventually escaped into the world and realized
its full potential becoming the character.
If scrutinized, the character’s genetic information and biometrics
will often be cross-referenced with the original donor of
the genetic material—depending upon whether the character or
the donor has a dead/deactivated or criminal SIN, this can be
good or bad. It also means that it is much more difficult to identify
the character beyond a reasonable doubt.
Should the character’s nature be revealed, the social stigma
still associated with cloning will lead to a –1 dice pool modifier to
any of his social interactions with anyone aware of it. Additionally,
the character may be wanted or actively hunted by whoever grew
him (this may be best represented by taking a Wanted or Enemy
negative quality).
Which is pretty much contradicted by the actual write up for clones in the Augmentation book.... Which came out a year later. Is this a Retconn? Is this a case of the writers not communicating? (unlikely here as several of the same writers worked on both books), Or is this a casee of upper management saying "No, SR is not going in that direction" ? who knows... But it's pretty clear that if you are ACTUALLY a clone and not a drooling mass of meat, you are something pretty darn special!
While rumors of true doppelgangers, replicant spies, and
full-clone soldiers make for entertaining stories, they are all the
stuff of fiction. To my knowledge, no one has ever managed to
successfully generate a clone with a useful brain (in containment).
Part of the problem is that the development of the brain
is influenced by learning processes in the growth period. Under
enforced growth conditions (basically a combination of hormone
cocktails and genetic therapy to speed through growth cycles), the
brain is not able to keep up with the rest of the body, yielding
an underdeveloped brain that cannot keep the body alive on its
own. Even slow-growth clones exhibit mental disabilities and only
an animal-level intelligence at best, likely due to lack of mental
stimulus from being raised in storage. While there have been tests
by my old employer UniOmni (and I’m sure other corps as well)
to compensate for this by torpedoing the brain with compressed
virtual input (mainly language and simulated motor patterns),
hoping to delude the brain into experiencing stages of development,
to my knowledge they have not been successful so far.