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Does alchemy suck?

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Chalkarts

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« on: <09-17-18/1708:36> »
I’m intrigued by alchemy.
I’ve got someone brewing in the in my back brain but was wondering about alchemy, preparations, artificing and such.

Do any of you play heavily with alchemy?
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Jack_Spade

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« Reply #1 on: <09-17-18/1726:16> »
It took three books to make Alchemy somewhat viable.
The biggest drawback is that you need about a three times as large dp as a spell slinger for the same result.
But since Forbidden Arcana made longterm storage of preparations possible, at least now you can use downtime to prepare

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HP15BS

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« Reply #2 on: <09-17-18/1810:13> »
The biggest drawback is that you need about a three times as large dp as a spell slinger for the same result.

Without Practiced Alchemist, that's basically true. But with it, a fairly high initiate grade will be enough to bring your final pool up to par.
(6Mag+6Alchemy= 4 average; 6Force= 2 average resist → 4-2 = 2 Potency
 ↳ 6Force+2Potency+1 Practiced Alchemist+3 initiate grade = final pool of 12)

Add Firebringer mentor spirit and a spec in the appropriate trigger, and you get those 12 dice at initiate grade 2 instead (grade 1 for manipulation spells).  Which is good, because there aren't all that many metamagics that a dedicated alchemist would want.

As you probably know, alchemy has two main benefits over sorcery to compensate for the lack of flexibility and raw power: Deal with all of your drain before the run, and Sustain spells for a few minutes without penalty.

These two points together mean that the best use of alchemy is to amass a bunch of buffs (for yourself and the rest of your team) like Deflection.  Also, to avoid resisted rolls wherever possible (cuz lower spell dicepools→ fewer hits→ no effect at all).

There are some specifics that will be GM-dependent, like whether you can decide anything about the spell after the prep is created. For example, could you make a pair of gloves be the lynchpin of a Magic Fingers prep, and set the prep so that the conjured hands mimic the movements of those gloves?
- The books don't say, so that kind of thing will be up to the GM.
« Last Edit: <09-17-18/1837:33> by HP15BS »
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Chalkarts

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« Reply #3 on: <09-17-18/1856:41> »
Can reagents be used to buff a preparation?

The seeming weakness of alchemy is kind of what draws me to it.  I like challenges.

I’m now trying to decide if an aspected mage artificer could really make an impact.

Id have to check with the dm about 1 idea, a type of timed trigger set to a hi-bounce ball so that after 3 bounces the spell pops.
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fseperent

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« Reply #4 on: <09-17-18/2027:10> »
Step 5 of creating the preparation:
You can use reagents in the crafting of a preparation.
They are expended in crafting (as inks, attached tchotchkes,
etc.), and the number of drams of reagents used then
becomes the limit instead of Force (see Reagents, p. 316).

Chalkarts

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« Reply #5 on: <09-17-18/2047:14> »
I’ve got some interesting ideas involving coins as touch triggers but I still don’t understand how exactly alchemy is functional vs spellcasting or summoning.  I found an old thread but didn’t want to necro it.  They didn’t have many good uses because of the time limit.  Can’t keep a shelf of potions or drawer of enchanted headbands, they die in a few hours.

Has anything changed in recent supplements?
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fseperent

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« Reply #6 on: <09-17-18/2051:16> »
Vault of Ages from Forbidden Arcana fixed that.

Chalkarts

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« Reply #7 on: <09-17-18/2056:40> »
What does that do?  My library is just the core book right now.
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fseperent

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« Reply #8 on: <09-17-18/2058:32> »
Holds preparations equal to twice its rating with no degradation.

Chalkarts

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« Reply #9 on: <09-17-18/2109:12> »
Is it a location or can it be a bag or bottle?
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HP15BS

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« Reply #10 on: <09-17-18/2124:41> »
You can put Rating x 2 preps in a Vault, each with a Force of up to Rating x 2.
It costs Rating x 2,000¥, the highest possible Rating is 5, and the availability is Rating+4R.
- Forbidden Arcana, top of pg 194

The book doesn't say anything about the size, weight, or whether it needs electricity, etc. In lieu of actual rules, it's relatively popular to treat its size like that of various rating medkits. That would make the max size be roughly that of an "oversized duffel bag," though I'd probably say it's too heavy to just carry around. (Bullets & Bandages, pg 17)
« Last Edit: <09-17-18/2131:20> by HP15BS »
To Deckers the Foundation really is a crazy place from Alice in Wonderland. How does that stuff just happen? How do they work when everything about them defies logic?
Then a Techno comes, high 5's Caterpillar, takes a swig of Mad Hatter's tea, & wanders away chatting up White Rabbit.
- Marcus Gideon

Chalkarts

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« Reply #11 on: <09-17-18/2235:31> »
I was thinking of 2, a closet in your home and then a travel size so you could make and store buff potions at home, then throwing a few in a bag for the run.

Are potions possible?

I was also thinking of command word buffs, throw some enhanced reflexes on a slap patch give one to everyone on the team and then activate them at the first sign of trouble.

Having a way to store them and keep a supply on hand makes alchemy infinitely more useful.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #12 on: <09-18-18/0045:26> »
Alchemical preparations let you prep some weak spells in advance, that don't require you to actively sustain them. Takes a few hours in advance to create them and then recover from the drain, then you can use them and they sustain themselves for a few minutes, without anyone facing sustaining penalties. If you for example create a bunch of Combat Sense and Deflection preparations, that gunfight is going to become much easier. Or Heal, so you just command it then don't have to spend several combat turns sustaining it as it slowly becomes permanent. It's a specific playstyle that should combine with the table and the types of run to employ properly.
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Reaver

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« Reply #13 on: <09-18-18/0142:33> »
I was thinking of 2, a closet in your home and then a travel size so you could make and store buff potions at home, then throwing a few in a bag for the run.

Are potions possible?

I was also thinking of command word buffs, throw some enhanced reflexes on a slap patch give one to everyone on the team and then activate them at the first sign of trouble.

Having a way to store them and keep a supply on hand makes alchemy infinitely more useful.

Yes potions are possible. The draw back is that they last for (F)minutes. Which is usually enough time for a single encounter to be sure, but means you will be "popping potions" just before a fight every time... IF you have advance warning of a fight.

Caught "flat footed" and by the time you've gargled your 2 or 3 potions, the fight is over - one way or the other. (Good for 'high risk, high reward' players who don't mind getting smacked by teammates when they cause a TPK) 

Great for after the fight, or to avoid a fight to be sure.
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Boring7

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« Reply #14 on: <09-18-18/0159:38> »
Our vault of ages is the size of a minifridge and has to stay in the van.  Still frickin' worth it though. 

Does alchemy suck, even with the supplements?  Eh, kinda, but it should.  You can (with VERY severe limitations) turn your street samurai into a mystic adept, it SHOULD have a lot of limitations.  But the biggest difficulty seems to me to be that you have to *reeeeeeally* know what you're doing. 

That said there's some crazy-go-nuts good plays, and it's interesting.  I had a heckuva good time building an NPC alchemist contact with street scum rules.  He's got a host of curatives and potions that his shop will basically never stop selling, and for his gang-member friends he has arguably the most amazing party drug in the universe (Opium Den) and a trump card for any sort of rumble with a rival gang (Growth) and they're touch-activated, so he doesn't even have to be there for the show.  It was interesting (at least to me) to think about what spells a non-shadowrunner would be most interested in making. 

Anyways, I think my favorite spells for alchemical preparation aren't the boom spells, but the toolkit spells.  Buffs and barriers and the like are rough in Shadowrun because of how sustaining spells works.  But if I have a coin I can slap down that makes a wall in front of the charging Dingo-bat, or a bridge to run from one building to another, (depends on the angle I place the coin at) or give every party member radiation protection without taking -8 (or worse) to all actions for the rest of the fight.  Not to mention as I start laying down spells as a NORMAL spellcaster my casting gets worse and worse with each sustained spell.  Alchemy just sustains itself, at least long enough to finish the fight.