[Jack_Spade]

@Xenon

And just where - from an ingame perspective - does this ability come from? I would say from the fact that "[...]dual-natured critters can interact with the astral plane as easily as the physical one." (p.394 core)


Fact is that there is the option inside the game world for a physical, dual-natured being to interact and hurt a completely astral entity.
p.315 talks specifically about how astral combat works, it does not say that this is the only way combat interaction may be resolved.

[Xenon]

Fact is that there is the option inside the game world for a physical, dual-natured being to interact and hurt a completely astral entity.

It is clear that a dual-natured physical adept can interact and hurt a completely astral entity as well. According to the book it is resolved with an Opposed Astral Combat + Willpower [Accuracy] v. Intuition + Logic Test where the damage is based on Charisma rather than Strength.

You seem to argue that an adept (or a critter) that is not dual-natured should be able to use physical combat and attributes to attack and deal damage to a completely astral entity.

[Jack_Spade]

No. I'm arguing that a dual-natured object like a focus will also damage an astral entity.

[Xenon]

It is clear that an active weapon focus will assist a dual natured (or fully astral) wielder in Astral Combat against a wholly astral entity.

But being strong doesn't help you at all when fighting an wholly astral form. To deal more damage to an astral entity you need charisma, not strength. Astral combat is mostly a mind game. An astral entity doesn't really exist for a character that don't even have a way to see into the astral plane to begin with. Being strong will cause more damage if you attack a physical form (which a manifesting magician doesn't have).

[Jack_Spade]

Not really true, since critters can use their strength to do more damage to wholly astral entities without needing any charisma.

[Overbyte]

The rules to me seem clear that the adept can't actually attack the mage with their weapon focus unless they use Astral Perception, but there does seem to be the possibility they could disrupt the mage by attempting to pass a dual natured object (weapon focus) through the mage's location.
Just need to decide what roll to make to hit which is a little tricky since the adept is acting in physical space and the mage is acting in astral.

[Marcus]

Ok Pause. What are we arguing? Dual natured critters are not the same as astral peering adepts, as far I as I understand it, while I agree that is dumb. It's RAW as best as I can tell.

[Overbyte]

To restate the original question/situation:

An adept who is neither astrally perceiving nor a ghoul is holding an active weapon focus.
A mage manifests.
Adept swings sword at mage.
What happens?

Fixed to say manifest.. sorry

[Xenon]

There is a distinct difference between Manifesting and Materializing.

1. A Manifesting magician doesn't have a physical body.
2. Adepts use astral perception, astral combat and mental attributes to fight astral entities that does not have a physical body.
3. Weapon focus can aid in astral combat against astral forms without physical body if the wielder use astral perception or astral projection.


SR5 p. 314 Manifesting
Unlike the Materialization power of spirits (p. 314), manifesting doesn’t give you a physical form, so you can’t interact with anything physically (or be harmed by physical attacks).

SR5 p. 315 Astral Combat
Astrally perceiving and dual-natured characters use their physical attributes and skills to fight opponents with a physical body, and their Astral Combat + Willpower to fight wholly astral entities...Astral attacks with a weapon focus are an Opposed Astral Combat + Willpower [Accuracy] v. Intuition + Logic Test.

SR5 p. 320 Weapon Foci
A weapon focus is effective against astral forms too, whether you’re using astral perception or projection. It adds its Force to your Astral Combat Tests when you’re using it, and you can take it along while astrally projecting.



If the adept had astral perception (which he in this case does not) then it would be resolved with an Opposed Astral Combat + Willpower [Accuracy] v. Intuition + Logic Test where the weapon focus would act as a positive dice pool modifier and where the damage would be based Charisma rather than Strength.

[Overbyte]

If the adept had astral perception (which he in this case does not) then it would be resolved with an Opposed Astral Combat + Willpower [Accuracy] v. Intuition + Logic Test where the weapon focus would act as a positive dice pool modifier and where the damage would be based Charisma rather than Strength.

Sorry, fixed my post to say "manifests".
As said, the adept does NOT have astral perception, so none of that applies.
The question is: How to resolve swinging the dual-natured object at the mage.

[Marcus]

To restate the original question/situation:
An adept who is neither astrally perceiving nor a ghoul is holding an active weapon focus.
A mage materializes.
Adept swings sword at mage.
What happens?

If he is actually meaning to attack then initiative is rolled, The mage going in astral time, the adept in normal time. When the adepts initiative comes up he swings and the sword pass through the image nothing happens. The astral image has no physical mass and is really a psychic projection, the adept doesn't met the prerequisites to attack an astral entity. If the adept starts peering astral then the story changes, but under raw i don't see another option.

[Marcus]

If your really worried about the two astral aspects meeting, then just say the blade passing through is painful/weird/uncomfortable to the mage but does not actual damage the mage.

[Overbyte]

If he is actually meaning to attack then initiative is rolled, The mage going in astral time, the adept in normal time. When the adepts initiative comes up he swings and the sword pass through the image nothing happens. The astral image has no physical mass and is really a psychic projection, the adept doesn't met the prerequisites to attack an astral entity. If the adept starts peering astral then the story changes, but under raw i don't see another option.

I think the only question comes from:

All foci have auras that are visible from astral space and carry your astral signature (p. 312). While activated, a focus also has an astral form. SR5 - p.318

Combined with this:

Mana barriers and astral forms are often tied to physical objects. Astral beings can’t push physical objects around, so objects may get dragged into contact with barriers or (rarely) other astral constructs. For example, a van protected with a mana barrier can drive into a warded garage, an astrally perceiving magician can ride an elevator into a warded basement, or a spell focus amulet could be placed inside a spirit focus box.
If this happens, each astral form makes an Opposed Test: living beings a Magic + Charisma [Astral], and non-living barriers and objects a Force x 2 [Force] test. The participant with any net hits remains normal and intact, while all others are disrupted—on a tie, all participants
are disrupted. SR5 - p.316

So if the mage and the weapon focus come in contact, disruption of the focus or mage may occur.

[Marcus]

I hear you Overbyte, but the reality is, the system is the system. The more i read manifesting the more I'm basicly convinced it's all in the heads of those whom see it. IE The wording as you are aware is it's really only a psychic effect.  There fore while it may seem like they passing through the same space it's actually a whole dimension away. It higher dimensional math, 1st is line 2nd is plane 3rd volume and 4th is maybe the astral. As far as raw is concern the attacker can't hit interact with the target. So astral bodies come in contact, maybe sparks fly or people taste the color purple, both of the folks feel kinda weird but nothing serious as far as the system goes happens.

I might consider giving everyone there a perception roll on the weapon focus to know it's magical.

[Overbyte]

I hear you Overbyte, but the reality is, the system is the system. The more i read manifesting the more I'm basicly convinced it's all in the heads of those whom see it. IE The wording as you are aware is it's really only a psychic effect.  There fore while it may seem like they passing through the same space it's actually a whole dimension away. It higher dimensional math, 1st is line 2nd is plane 3rd volume and 4th is maybe the astral. As far as raw is concern the attacker can't hit interact with the target. So astral bodies come in contact, maybe sparks fly or people taste the color purple, both of the folks feel kinda weird but nothing serious as far as the system goes happens.

I might consider giving everyone there a perception roll on the weapon focus to know it's magical.

Yes. There was a discussion in that other thread about perceiving the manifestation. And if it is really just "in your head" the astral form of the mage isn't necessarily where you "see" him so swinging at that location may not do you any good at all.

I find (in general) that Shadowrun is much more of a "hand-wavey" system than others I play, so like many other aspects I might allow something interesting to happen if it furthered the plot. At the very least, if I was that mage, I'd be concerned about the adept using astral perception and cutting me a new one with that focus.