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Shadow Spells

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The Masked Ferret

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« Reply #30 on: <09-25-14/2124:30> »
I don't believe it is an options book, so we should be good.
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Critias

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« Reply #31 on: <09-25-14/2142:19> »
@ Critias
Could You please explain why 4 Traditions that are in SR4A where omitted in the SR5 Street Grimoire only to be printed in the Shadow spells PDF ?
For Me as an outstanding Person this looks exactly like CGL has been withholding some of the Material just to make extra Cash with this PDF.
From what I've read from You I consider you as a sincere Person and Freelancer and If you say that the two branches ( E-Books and Standard Books) are working seperately  I take your Word ! But from my Point of View this looks extremely either like Money grubbing or extreme lack of communicating between those two departments and more than just a coincidence that exactly those 4 Traditions that are missing in Street Grimoire now apppear in Shadow Spells....

with a wary Dance
Medicineman
You guys remember how Commanding Voice showed up in both Stolen Souls and Street Grimoire?  That's an example of how the various mini-branches of the game company don't always coordinate very well.  It is, in part, evidence of the lack of communication between groups working on different projects.  One could also point to, for instance, the general chaos of the last few years.  There's thread after thread of problems that have erupted due to a lack of communication, coordination, and cohesion within the game line.  It is, in fact, a little ironic to me, here, that I'm now having to point out this sort of thing to some of you

We've had thread after thread about Jackpointers posting after their death, powers being replicated in more than one book, pieces of gear that immediately make other gear obsolete, and dozens -- maybe hundreds -- of similar SNAFUs due to a lack of communication within the company...and yet here we are, suddenly, with folks insisting I prove that there's a lack of communication within the company.  I hope the cometragedy of that isn't lost on everyone but me.

What may have happened, believe it or not, was the e-book line developer trying to improve on all that, and coordinating with the main line developer, basically saying "Hey, has anyone called dibs on _____ yet?  Have you got the word count for it in your book?  No?  Okay, I'll add it to mine."  Peter got in a little work on Grimoire, as I understand it, and that would've given him the opportunity to keep an eye on that book's progress, see what material was going into it and what wasn't, and then to try and squeeze what he could into his e-book.  This would be a sign of improved communication, one of those changes Jason promised a few months ago, arguably when these errors and inconsistencies were at their worst, amidst the chaos of convention season. 

Print books have limits on space that e-books flatly don't, and the e-book line -- in general! -- exists specifically to pick up that slack (it's how Way of the Adept got written, not to mention Land of Promise;  they're cheaper to produce, we get paid less to write them, they don't have printing costs, artwork's often recycled and as such free, etc, etc).  Something not making it into a print book is not the same thing as something being cut from that print product;  Jason's not in the habit of green-lighting folks to write stuff, and then not using it. 

You're free to disbelieve me if you want.  My name's not in the credits of either book, I didn't have anything to do with 'em, directly (and I think the costs of Adept Ways kind of show you I wasn't writing them).  I'm just telling you how the line has worked, traditionally (hardly anyone took a look at my e-books before they were published, unless you count me coordinating with myself between Land of Promise and Elven Blood, a Missions product). 

You're free to think there's a well-coordinated conspiracy going on in CGL, where our editor's got the time to go through and snip stuff out of one book to include it in another, where we've got multiple design teams working together so smoothly that we're seamlessly cutting material from one book and creating another, whole-cloth, in order to get extra money from you (all just a few weeks after us tripping on our dicks and putting one power, in two very different forms, into two completely unrelated books). 

Think what you want to think.  Just make it clear you're only sharing your personal opinion when you do so.  I'm just doing what I can to clear things up, and ask you to at least state it's your opinion, not describing it matter-of-factly, when you have no evidence of such wrongdoing (and when, in fact, writers and line developers are trying to be open with you about the design process). 

Being a PDF e-book though, this would not be Missions legal correct?
Unless something has changed, it's specifically the "Options" line of e-books that are, well, optional (and as such not Missions-legal).  Not every e-book. 
« Last Edit: <09-25-14/2152:40> by Critias »

Digital_Viking

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« Reply #32 on: <09-25-14/2146:23> »
Thanks for the patient and complete response Critias.
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MijRai

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« Reply #33 on: <09-25-14/2156:31> »
You guys remember how Commanding Voice showed up in both Stolen Souls and Street Grimoire?  That's an example of how the various mini-branches of the game company don't always coordinate very well.  It is, in part, evidence of the lack of communication between groups working on different projects.  One could also point to, for instance, the general chaos of the last few years.  There's thread after thread of problems that have erupted due to a lack of communication, coordination, and cohesion within the game line.  It is, in fact, a little ironic to me, here, that I'm now having to point out this sort of thing to some of you

We've had thread after thread about Jackpointers posting after their death, powers being replicated in more than one book, pieces of gear that immediately make other gear obsolete, and dozens -- maybe hundreds -- of similar SNAFUs due to a lack of communication within the company...and yet here we are, suddenly, with folks insisting I prove that there's a lack of communication within the company.  I hope the cometragedy of that isn't lost on everyone but me.

What may have happened, believe it or not, was the e-book line developer trying to improve on all that, and coordinating with the main line developer, basically saying "Hey, has anyone called dibs on _____ yet?  Have you got the word count for it in your book?  No?  Okay, I'll add it to mine."  Peter got in a little work on Grimoire, as I understand it, and that would've given him the opportunity to keep an eye on that book's progress, see what material was going into it and what wasn't, and then to try and squeeze what he could into his e-book.  This would be a sign of improved communication, one of those changes Jason promised a few months ago, arguably when these errors and inconsistencies were at their worst, amidst the chaos of convention season. 

Print books have limits on space that e-books flatly don't, and the e-book line -- in general! -- exists specifically to pick up that slack (it's how Way of the Adept got written, not to mention Land of Promise;  they're cheaper to produce, we get paid less to write them, they don't have printing costs, artwork's often recycled and as such free, etc, etc).  Something not making it into a print book is not the same thing as something being cut from that print product;  Jason's not in the habit of green-lighting folks to write stuff, and then not using it. 

You're free to disbelieve me if you want.  My name's not in the credits of either book, I didn't have anything to do with 'em, directly (and I think the costs of Adept Ways kind of show you I wasn't writing them).  I'm just telling you how the line has worked, traditionally (hardly anyone took a look at my e-books before they were published, unless you count me coordinating with myself between Land of Promise and Elven Blood, a Missions product). 

You're free to think there's a well-coordinated conspiracy going on in CGL, where our editor's got the time to go through and snip stuff out of one book to include it in another, where we've got multiple design teams working together so smoothly that we're seamlessly cutting material from one book and creating another, whole-cloth, in order to get extra money from you (all just a few weeks after us tripping on our dicks and putting one power, in two very different forms, into two completely unrelated books). 

Think what you want to think.  Just make it clear you're only sharing your personal opinion when you do so.  I'm just doing what I can to clear things up, and ask you to at least state it's your opinion, not describing it matter-of-factly, when you have no evidence of such wrongdoing (and when, in fact, writers and line developers are trying to be open with you about the design process). 

I too would like to say thank you for the in-depth answer.  Knowing someone like you is working with Catalyst (as well as a friend of mine who does illustration), actually alleviates some of my concerns, given the forthright-ness you've had with us. 
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Namikaze

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« Reply #34 on: <09-25-14/2213:24> »
Thanks Critias.  It's a real shame that there are people who seem to want to find the worst in every situation no matter what, ignoring all the evidence to the contrary.  I suppose that's just the nature of the internet though.
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Medicineman

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« Reply #35 on: <09-26-14/0108:47> »
Quote
that's kinda like saying they left stuff out of run&gun just to sell us gun heaven 3 a couple months earlier...
It is.
 some of the Waepons Mods (like Personalized Grip) which where in the SR4A Arsenal and which belong into Run & Gun aren't printed there but in other PDFs so If a Group wants to have all Weapons Mods it NEEDS to buy other unrelated PDFs also.

Quote
Think what you want to think.  Just make it clear you're only sharing your personal opinion when you do so.  I'm just doing what I can to clear things up,
I Do , but I also like to know your Point of View before I make up my Mind (See also my Signature ;) )
And I surely trust You  and take Your  words for honest

With a disappointed Dance
Medicineman
« Last Edit: <09-26-14/0117:23> by Medicineman »
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AJCarrington

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« Reply #36 on: <09-26-14/0114:13> »
Well, quite a thread... ???

Quite looking forward to picking this up...love how the release always comes just as I'm starting a long international...now need to wait another 10+ hours till next leg is done...sigh :)

Killstring

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« Reply #37 on: <09-26-14/0130:06> »

If you don't understand, I will point you to the 1,000's of articles and blogs about day one DLC.

Disclosure: I used to be a musician for my job. As such, I tend to see things from a point of view that benefits content creators.

A lot of those articles and blogs are simply not correct. Oftentimes, when you're working on a project, things get cut. Magazine, music album, video game, rpg or whatever else - constraints, whether budgetary, spacial or whatnot, they occur. And, you know, it'd be good to get that content somehow. To finish it up, and put it in the hands of consumers. So, y'know, maybe we make a b-side. Maybe we put some programmers back on this cut sequence, and we'll do some DLC. Maybe we kick this to the pdf-only crew, and see if they want to run with it.

And yeah, I get it: Electronic Arts exists! They price-gouge, it sucks. But the overwhelming majority of DLC that I've seen in video games has come from a project team operating outside of the core game's budget. Maybe it was cut, maybe never greenlit, but if it represents potential additional revenue, then you can get it made. So yeah, you could not have this content, and you don't have to buy it! But vilifying people for making extra content ignores the process by which said content comes to be in the first place.

Having. Said. That.

As a consumer, it's more of a utility issue - do I feel that I received good value for resources expended? I can't say for SG, as my gm bought it. But I acquired pdf's of the core book and Shadow Spells for $20 and $7 bucks respectively, and I feel like I got a lot of utility for that price point. Not everybody does! That's totally cool, and makes for a healthy hobby.

I feel that I got my seven buck's worth. Others may find that their mileage varies. But I'm pretty happy.

Namikaze

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« Reply #38 on: <09-26-14/0221:34> »
A lot of those articles and blogs are simply not correct. Oftentimes, when you're working on a project, things get cut. Magazine, music album, video game, rpg or whatever else - constraints, whether budgetary, spacial or whatnot, they occur. And, you know, it'd be good to get that content somehow. To finish it up, and put it in the hands of consumers. So, y'know, maybe we make a b-side. Maybe we put some programmers back on this cut sequence, and we'll do some DLC. Maybe we kick this to the pdf-only crew, and see if they want to run with it.

Having come from the video game industry, I agree with this sentiment.  Day one DLC might feel like it's some sort of marketing ploy (and in some cases, it will be) but more often than not it's simply content that the developer wanted to have in the game, but couldn't guarantee.  Usually this means the DLC team works on it, which is separate from the primary team.  Hmm...  kind of like how there's a team that works on the e-books and a team that works on the core books.  Wow, funny how that correlates.  $7 isn't worth griping about this much - paranoia is a powerful emotion though.
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Agonar

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« Reply #39 on: <09-26-14/0244:12> »
You know, Limited spells were in SR4a (the mechanic that require Fetishes, that give you +2 Drain Dice) but they aren't in SR5 core.. 
Great Dragon stat mods were in SR4a (and SR4, and SR3), but they weren't in SR5...     
Both of those, had me scratching my head, but I'll wait for it.. and if I need it before it's released, I'll go by past models, or tweak my own numbers.

Yeah, there are going to be little oddities, things that were in earlier products but aren't here.  I cannot believe anyone actually takes this conspiracy stuff to heart..  then again, I've been following the forums, so I guess I can.

I will try to pick this e-book up sometime in the near future, and look forward to checking it out!
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XyraFhoan

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« Reply #40 on: <09-26-14/0308:14> »
I'm of the camp that doesn't believe that Catalyst was out to screw any of its customers by consciously cutting material out of Street Grimoire to sell separately. While Street Grimoire has obvious problems in the editing department, it was still a thick supplement with a ton of background information for GMs to use. And while there's objectively less mechanical, crunchy material than the 4th edition, it's still a significant piece of work and filled with RP hooks. I have a number of people at my table who really like the supplement. It just happens to have unfortunate balance issues and inconsistencies with previous publications in the current edition. And now that the errata for Street Grimoire is out, the missing adept powers of Keratin Control and Living Focus have been included in Street Grimoire. Slowly but surely there is some resolution to the problems in the major sourcebooks, even though it would have been better had the issues not existed at all.

As for Shadow Spells, I found it a good read and a decent standalone product. It would be nice if it had made it into Street Grimoire considering it's only been a few months since that came out, but it has its own flavour and I hesitate to call it a bunch of cut-off remnants of a bigger book. Unfortunately the drain code/adept power cost problem is still there, though it isn't quite as bad. There's a reagant cost table floating around at the end of the book but nothing else related to it, especially since it's placed in with the adept stuff. But I did really like the potential plot seeds in the Magical Societies and Threats sections. Some people will hate that fluff and art is dominating the page count and you get less product for more money and that is totally fine to hold as an opinion, considering these are rulebooks first and foremost and not novels. But some people do enjoy the setting material more than the mechanics, due to the way the RPG market is changing towards lighter rules and more storytelling. Including the fluff in the crunch books alleviates some of the niche factor that a story-centric book has. I could personally go either way with these books; I do like crunch, but I also use a ton of fluff books to flavour my between-game fiction.

I do have to apply one criticism to all the books and supplements that have been coming out. Where are the indexes? Shadow Spells might only be 24 pages but an index would really be nice anyway. And for the bigger, 200+ page supplements, it's a pain not to have them.

Tarnus

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« Reply #41 on: <09-26-14/0519:02> »
*snip*

Well, thanks for the reply. I guess I should be happy that it isn't malice but atrociously bad organization? Well, that's something I guess.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #42 on: <09-26-14/0533:00> »
I do have to apply one criticism to all the books and supplements that have been coming out. Where are the indexes? Shadow Spells might only be 24 pages but an index would really be nice anyway. And for the bigger, 200+ page supplements, it's a pain not to have them.
You know, that actually sounds like it'd be a great idea. Remember the index from SR4a? Something like that on the website, or as downloadable pdf, would be awesome.
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firebug

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« Reply #43 on: <09-26-14/0858:38> »
I do have to apply one criticism to all the books and supplements that have been coming out. Where are the indexes? Shadow Spells might only be 24 pages but an index would really be nice anyway. And for the bigger, 200+ page supplements, it's a pain not to have them.
You know, that actually sounds like it'd be a great idea. Remember the index from SR4a? Something like that on the website, or as downloadable pdf, would be awesome.

Sounds like something someone could put together on the forum, actually.  Not to imply I'm volunteering for it, but I could probably assist...
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Killstring

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« Reply #44 on: <09-26-14/0933:45> »
I do have to apply one criticism to all the books and supplements that have been coming out. Where are the indexes? Shadow Spells might only be 24 pages but an index would really be nice anyway. And for the bigger, 200+ page supplements, it's a pain not to have them.
You know, that actually sounds like it'd be a great idea. Remember the index from SR4a? Something like that on the website, or as downloadable pdf, would be awesome.

Sounds like something someone could put together on the forum, actually.  Not to imply I'm volunteering for it, but I could probably assist...

Agreed - that would be a great thing to have.