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Double Clutch Discussion

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Typhus:
Someone used a "their" instead of a "they're" somewhere too.  Haven't gone back to look at where i found it though.

Overall, I'm finding it a mixed bag so far.  Noticing a fair amount of places where concept > execution.  The Motor Pool Quality is a standout example of something I personally advocated for around here, but the way it was executed is really under-powered for what I'd want from it as a GM or player.  Saw the title and got excited, then I read the text.  Boo. 
   A couple other Qualities were really sketchy in terms of usefulness, like Affinity for Transit and Silver Lining.  A couple of the Negative Qualities can derail your entire game session (ex. Bermuda Gremlins and Fuzz Magnet) if you don't save them for a dramatically appropriate occasion.  They are funny ideas, but oof.  Driving mishaps derailed several of my games years ago even before Qualities were even a thing.  (My SR2 years would make the CLUE Files blush.)

Some of the thresholds look prohibitively high on certain things, like you'd need a 12+ dice pool for some things, or else spend Edge, but without that kind of build these options are not really for you.  Foot chases stand out as an Adept/Samurai/Troll only thing.  Your skinny mage and Decker won't be having these anytime soon, unless the people chasing you are equally low on dice.  Be careful throwing in foot chases.  Gang of mooks?  Sure.  Security forces?  Mmmmaaaaybe not for every group.  Just check the dice pools in advance, is all I'm saying to GMs.

Chase combat is another mixed bag.  The Step One and Step Two sections are clear enough, but then they restate all the same chase combat rules in a disjointed, non-procedural (rule by rule) way right after.  It's not clear where the Step Two section ends and the recap/rewrite part begins.  That actually make this section more confusing.  Especially since the second write up is not as easy to follow the wording on.  The Positional Advantage section is particularly vague (who is supposed to be the "you"?  Presumably the players?).  This section needed another run through an editor's hand for better clarity. 

Passenger actions during Chases felt like an afterthought.  Could have put in some fun specific Edge actions for them too, for both the GM and the players to draw inspiration from.  Really this is just "tell me what you are rolling to grant Edge to the driver".  Mechanically uninspiring sitting next to  all the Chase Edge Actions.

Upsides so far: Some fun and funny Negative Qualities (probably the best thing I've run across so far).  Looks like there will be some interesting vehicles available, though why we need stats for a container ship or battleships I do not know. Well, they are there if you want them I guess.  I haven't delved into the vehicles much yet.

I like that there are a number of things that are included that aren't just for riggers (and not even for vehicle combat at in some cases).  There's also a few fixes for weaker rules from the CRB scattered around.  I think we're up to 2002 uses for Edge now. 

Some odd stuff: Some drones have higher Accel and Speed Intervals than their top speeds.  I guess this is because you can mod the top speeds, etc?

One major knock I have to give this book is that is has very few pictures of the vehicles themselves.  Like maybe six of each for land, sea, and air.  Haven't recounted but it's very small.  Some of the more exotic vehicles would really benefit from pictures, as would the product overall.  Art adds flavor and this is largely devoid of a sense of that from the low amount of art.  I will say, if you ever thought the Hornet helo was undergunned, the absurdly improbable amount of firepower it is depicted with is worth a look.  That's a flying war crime right there. 

So far it's a 2.5 out of 5 from me.  The now-standard low quality of Catalyst's SR products remains unchanged, but there are some solid things to salvage from this one.  Some inspirational material, but as with all things 6e, adjustment and tinkering will be required.  I may change my thoughts after I take a look at the vehicle concepts, but as an old school players I recognize a lot of returning options converted to 6e.  I'd imagine this would let you resurrect riggers from prior editions successfully now.     
   Chase rules are just okay, could be clearer and made into more player and GM friendly products.  As it is, the GM would have to make their own Chase Combat player aids, tokens etc.  Still no rules for using drones for fire support in foot combat, but I think if you default to Accel as their base "walk" rate and maybe 2x that for a "run" rate, that would be close enough.  The CRB actually doesn't say what the action cost is for piloting or for drones moving on their own, so that's a rules gap still needing closure.  We can infer it's a major action to pilot things (I think this book may make that explicit), but it's not stated that I can find in any printing of the CRB I've seen.  All that is to say that drone combat feels overlooked in this book in a way so far. 

To wrap up my thoughts on a more positive note, I will say however, if anyone ends up doing a jetpack chase scene through downtown anywhere, I either want in or I want a link to the video of how that goes.  Done right, that would be epic madness.

Banshee:

--- Quote from: Typhus on ---Still no rules for using drones for fire support in foot combat, but I think if you default to Accel as their base "walk" rate and maybe 2x that for a "run" rate, that would be close enough.  The CRB actually doesn't say what the action cost is for piloting or for drones moving on their own, so that's a rules gap still needing closure.  We can infer it's a major action to pilot things (I think this book may make that explicit), but it's not stated that I can find in any printing of the CRB I've seen.  All that is to say that drone combat feels overlooked in this book in a way so far. 

--- End quote ---

Ok, 1st off not replying to target you at all but was just having a conversation concerning this very topic with one of my playtesters about seeing the same complaint on Reddit, and it bugs me that people are seeing it this way.

Vehicle is movement (speed) is listed in metters per combat turn so they use the same movement scale as characters. We did that on purpose. A vehicle uses the same action economy as a character... so just moving is a minor Move Action. Only the distance moved is different. Piloting varies ... just "driving from Point A to Point B doesn't require a skill check so it's a move Action. Trying to do a 180 bootleg at 50mph ... well that a skill check obviously... so it uses the Use Skill major Action.

So in summary... we didn't make new rules for vehicles engaging in combat with characters because they are not needed. They use the same rules as already present.

Finstersang:
One thing I just noticed: I couldnīt find any new rules or clarification for autonomous Drones earning Edge.

So, can Drones earn and use Edge?


* On one hand, a Drone obviously doesnīt have an Edge Attribute, so one could argue that they also canīt earn and use Edge.
* On the other hand, this would make a lot of stats useless for playing or interacting with drones, because they would be cut off from the core mechanic that governs them. An autonomous Steel lynx suddenly couldnīt profit from its high Defense Rating. Same for high Attack ratings, sensor enhancements and other perks and quirks. Not to mention all the important Edge Actions. It would obviously be the worst possible solution.
* On a third, grossly disfigured cronenbergian mutant hand emerging from my lower abdomen, the authors of this book also came up with Attribute Mastery, so the argument that itīs the "worst possible solution" might actually be an argument that this is, in fact, absolutely RAI.   ;D
Can somebody please deny or confirm that conspicion? Maybe I just overlooked something    ::)

Banshee:

--- Quote from: Finstersang on ---One thing I just noticed: I couldnīt find any new rules or clarification for autonomous Drones earning Edge.

So, can Drones earn and use Edge?


* On one hand, a Drone obviously doesnīt have an Edge Attribute, so one could argue that they also canīt earn and use Edge.
* On the other hand, this would make a lot of stats useless for playing or interacting with drones, because they would be cut off from the core mechanic that governs them. An autonomous Steel lynx suddenly couldnīt profit from its high Defense Rating. Same for high Attack ratings, sensor enhancements and other perks and quirks. Not to mention all the important Edge Actions. It would obviously be the worst possible solution.
* On a third, grossly disfigured cronenbergian mutant hand emerging from my lower abdomen, the authors of this book also came up with Attribute Mastery, so the argument that itīs the "worst possible solution" might actually be an argument that this is, in fact, absolutely RAI.   ;D
Can somebody please deny or confirm that conspicion? Maybe I just overlooked something    ::)

--- End quote ---

Ok, so 1st ... Attribute Mastery (and that entire chapter was a different author than any of the drone rules in any of the books so please don't confer any correlation. 😉

As for drones earning edge, Hjal and I have been discussing that lately (to address in a hopefully official FAQ) and while it is inferred but never explicitly said the intent is that they can earn edge but since they don't have an edge Attribute they can't bank it beyond the active scene.

Aria:
There are summary tables for aircraft but none for ground craft, boats and drones that I can find?!?  Any chance they are lurking somewhere and could be released in pdf format?!

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