Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: jerryme on <04-11-17/0836:42>
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Hoi!
So: I have this character idea and I really want to give him two (probably light) pistols for style. However - please excuse my crazy - the rather limited range is a turn-off. One of my former chars used to use pistols, too, and I remember his opponents to be out of range most of the time, requiring movement while more heavily equipped party members were happily shooting.
I realize it is much to ask from such a tiny apparatus, but, surely, in the world of Shadowrun, were anything can be augmented, there ought to be a way, like some kind of high-pressure firing chamber or heavy/specially shaped ammo? I would gladly accept penalties in accuracy or damage. I was however unsuccessfull in my search in books and on the internet.
Do you know any tricks? Thank you for your time.
jerryme
Foreign language disclaimer: Sorry for any mistakes :P.
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First of all: Use heavy pistols. There is no reason to use light pistols if you aren't trying to smuggle your gun somewhere.
Secondly, there is the long barrel mod from Hard Targets. Increases accuracy and range. Having glasses with zoom allows you to decrease the penalties from extreme to long range.
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Only weapon mod that could be used to extend pistol ranges would be the longbarrel mod, I believe.
On the other hand, I'm questioning just how you always seem to be getting into fights outside of a pistol's maximum range. Most of the fights I've gotten into in Shadowrun have been in/around buildings, with the only times I've been out of pistol range from an enemy being a couple times when Mr. J pulled a doublecross, or we were having to go across open terrain, or so on. Does your group simply start shooting when they get into range? Or do they properly set ambushes and the like? When you're in a sprawl, the only times you really got to worry about being outside a pistol's range are when someone's shooting at you from across a warehouse, or from a block away, or the like. And in those situations, there's usually cover you can grab while making your way into range, or getting out of dodge.
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Unless something came out in errata, long barrel does not increase range. Also, if you've got the money for it, Improved Range Finder from Run&Gun is a superior option to zoom glasses, as it doesn't require any aim actions to come into play. It also has the advantage of stacking with the Hawk Eye quality from Run Faster, another way to increase your effective range. But yeah, if you're not satisfied with a weapon's range the easiest solution is to switch to one with a higher range.
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Err...
"This modiication involves replacing the stock barrel with a longer one thereby increasing bullet velocity. Increase Accuracy by 1, while increasing the Concealability modiier by +1."
And that's all. How does this increase range ? Unless I'm missing some other text somewhere in the book (in which case I'd very much like to know where it is)
Damn Ghost Rigger beat me to it. Still leaving the post for the exact quote from the book.
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I'd have to check to make sure, but I'd bet that in at least one previous edition it increased range. In fact, now that I have checked, in 4e barrel extension increased range by 10% and barrel reduction decreased it by 20%.
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Damn it. Seems like I was thinking of 4e rules :-[
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Pistol ranges are perfectly fine for fights inside buildings, narrow streets and that kinda stuff.
You'll not be able to kill that sniper drone that flies 700m in the air and takes shots at you, and you'll have problems during chase combat too.
If your GM constantly puts the enemies outside your range, you should talk to him.
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Hoi!
So: I have this character idea and I really want to give him two (probably light) pistols for style. However - please excuse my crazy - the rather limited range is a turn-off. One of my former chars used to use pistols, too, and I remember his opponents to be out of range most of the time, requiring movement while more heavily equipped party members were happily shooting.
I realize it is much to ask from such a tiny apparatus, but, surely, in the world of Shadowrun, were anything can be augmented, there ought to be a way, like some kind of high-pressure firing chamber or heavy/specially shaped ammo? I would gladly accept penalties in accuracy or damage. I was however unsuccessfull in my search in books and on the internet.
Do you know any tricks? Thank you for your time.
jerryme
Foreign language disclaimer: Sorry for any mistakes :P.
Ok....
To put this simply, guns are just directional bombs, designed to exploded a particluar way.... Regardless of how they look, there is actually a LOT of science into a firearm and a bullet...
But if we ignore all the fun science, cause this isn't a science blog, I'll leave you with my $1200 mistake:
A few years ago I purchase a .357 magnium revolver, a stainless steel King Cobra. I was eager to get out shooting but didn't have any .357 brass. But I DID have loads of .38 brass laying about, so I started hand loading a few dozen rounds for the next day following my manual for .38 loads.
<For those that don't know, a .38 special and a .357 mag are the exact same size, only the .357 brass is 3mm longer. So you can safely fire .38 rounds from a .357 mag gun>
So the next day I at the range, I sight in on the target and squeeze the trigger.... BOOM!!!
The explodes into a fireball in my hands!! The cylinder is pealed open into a 'U' shape, the barrel completely comes off, the top of the gun is blown into a thousand pieces, and I have to get the rear sight removed from my collar bone surgically...
Turns out I mixed up my powders, and used the amount of powder required for a .44 magnium round! In the confines of the small .38 brass, I effectively made a bomb that exploded outward instead of directionally like a regular firearm!
Now changing out barrels of a longer one will improve your range, but this is rather nominal.... the change is accuracy.... the longer the barrel, the more spin, the less 'wiggle' to the bullet....
But to get the range increase I think you're talking about, you'd have to leave pistols behind and move to longarms.... cause it gets hard to hold a 20" barrel up straight from just the back end :P
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That is quite a story. I'm glad you didn't get disfigured or worse.
g
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I was lucky it didn't take my hand!
As it stands, just a little scar on my collar bone from where they had to remove the back site. No biggie considering my collection of war zone construction scars.
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@Ghost Rigger
Nice find with the Improved Range Finder - Hawk Eye - Combo!
@Reaver
Dude!
I am glad you are ok (it seems) and that thing from your collar bone did not hit your eye or something.
Your post actually gave me a lot of insight. I know that I know nothing about guns, but somehow that is enough for me. I respect guns, but they do not fascinate me. In RL that is. In SR, well, I want to be an action hero :D
cheers
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@Ghost Rigger
Nice find with the Improved Range Finder - Hawk Eye - Combo!
Oh you think that's good? Wait until you realize that by RAW (and possibly RAI as well) the combo stacks with zoom taken as the Improved Sense Adept power, allowing you to shoot from the maximum of the weapon's range without taking any range penalties so long as you aim first.
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Also, if you've got the money for it, Improved Range Finder from Run&Gun is a superior option to zoom glasses, as it doesn't require any aim actions to come into play. It also has the advantage of stacking with the Hawk Eye quality from Run Faster, another way to increase your effective range.
The problem with this is that Smartlink is incompatible with Hawk Eye whether you get it in external 'electronic vision enhancement' or cyber form.
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except suppressors in real life are essentially barrel extenders and also increase the distance and speed of bullets https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtPdjGa0VB8
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Novocrane : I'm not really sure smartlink counts as "electronic vision enhancements" since it isn't improving your vision, but giving you instructions to aim better with your gun. I may be playing with the wording there, but to me, not being able to combine hawk eye + smartlink would be the same as not being able to combine hawk eye + HUD.
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As a few others have mentioned, to get more range from a pistol, you really need to change the cartridge. Something like a Thompson/Center Contender would do the trick, but that's pretty far away from a light pistol.
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except suppressors in real life are essentially barrel extenders and also increase the distance and speed of bullets https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtPdjGa0VB8
And trying to compare real life firearms to game mechanics is foolhardy, at best. Otherwise we have to get into why someone taking a machine gun and holding the trigger down for a full combat turn on full auto somehow shoots more bullets if they've got three passes instead of if they have two, or how someone with one pass using suppressive fire will have the effect for the whole combat turn, but someone with three passes using suppressive fire on their first pass uses the same number of bullets but gets 1/3 of the effect.
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except suppressors in real life are essentially barrel extenders and also increase the distance and speed of bullets https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtPdjGa0VB8
And trying to compare real life firearms to game mechanics is foolhardy, at best. Otherwise we have to get into why someone taking a machine gun and holding the trigger down for a full combat turn on full auto somehow shoots more bullets if they've got three passes instead of if they have two, or how someone with one pass using suppressive fire will have the effect for the whole combat turn, but someone with three passes using suppressive fire on their first pass uses the same number of bullets but gets 1/3 of the effect.
At least for that second part, I've always ruled that if a character continues to do nothing except holding their suppressive fire, they can continue to do so for the entire Combat Turn. In that way, having more Combat Turns doesn't change "how long" suppressive fire takes, just gives that character more options to change their mind if they so choose. What really blows the mind-hole, there though is that no matter if they choose to continue or not, it still only uses 20 bullets.
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Though it may appear as a “spray and pray” technique it is in fact a combination of controlled and fully automatic bursts
focused over a narrow area and directed at anything that moves.
page 179 core
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At least for that second part, I've always ruled that if a character continues to do nothing except holding their suppressive fire, they can continue to do so for the entire Combat Turn. In that way, having more Combat Turns doesn't change "how long" suppressive fire takes, just gives that character more options to change their mind if they so choose. What really blows the mind-hole, there though is that no matter if they choose to continue or not, it still only uses 20 bullets.
I was away from book before, but I found the line that supports this idea: "The suppressive fire zone lasts until the end of the Combat Turn as long as the firer does not move or commit to any other action." That's the last sentence of the first paragraph of Suppressive Fire on page 179.
So yeah, as long as a character doesn't move or choose to take other actions, suppressive fire lasts until the end of the Combat Turn even if they have additional passes. You don't use up 20 bullets for each pass, just each Combat Turn.
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I'm not really sure smartlink counts as "electronic vision enhancements"
I am. It's a Vision Enhancement (core 444), and it's electronic.
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I'm not really sure smartlink counts as "electronic vision enhancements"
I am. It's a Vision Enhancement (core 444), and it's electronic.
Except you're still comparing apples and oranges. Mechanically, they negate/reduce different penalties and apply bonuses to different dice pools, and from an-universe perspective they're nothing alike either. Hawk Eye makes your vision objectively superior, while smartlink puts a target in your vision to aim at that compensates for the wind and other factors. In fact, given that smartlink can be used while using ultravision, I'd go as far to argue that smartlink is no more a vision enhancement than iron sights are, it's just called that because it goes in all the same places actual vision enhancements do.
I could see a smartlink implant messing with the perfect balance that make the eyes of a character with Hawk Eye so damn good, but that doesn't apply to external smartlinks. Worst case scenario, work something out with a holographic sight, so it doesn't involve AR in any way.
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Novocrane : If you take the Vision Enhancement table and say "everything in here isn't compatible with Hawk Eye", then there is a huge problem. Image link - which is the basic component of HUD and AR - is in that list, and it is, in my opinion, as much vision enhancement as Smartlink, if it isn't more. By your logic, it would mean that anyone with the Hawk Eye quality would be unable to use lens or glasses with image link, meaning they would have absolutely no access to a HUD or AR.
Sorry if this sounds rude, but to me, this is the direct implication of what you are saying, and if it was supposed to be read the way you say, I don't see how it should be a positive quality.
Edit : What Ghost said.
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it would mean that anyone with the Hawk Eye quality would be unable to use lens or glasses with image link, meaning they would have absolutely no access to a HUD or AR.
There are multiple ways to get AR. Not all involve imaging devices, electronic vision enhancements, or eye related cyberware.
It's also worth pointing out that the quality being incompatible does not mean that a character cannot use these things - only that the quality does not function as written with them.
Except you're still comparing apples and oranges.
No, I'm applying a restriction against electronic vision enhancements to the things that fall under the heading (in multiple locations) of 'vision enhancements', and are electronic.
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After reading it myself I cannot help but agree with Novocrane. Allow me to offer my fluff explanation: When you have hawk eyes the smartlink's reticle looks pixelated.
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Well then, clearly the solution is to pay premiums for an AR setup of higher resolution, or to do away with AR altogether and use a very high-tech set of iron sights as part of your smartgun system; you'd still need to wear glasses because the system needs to know which way your head is pointing and where you're looking, but they don't need to convey any information (that directly contributes to shooting, you might still need it to display ammo count and whatnot). As long as something manages to correct your aim by saying "aim a bit more that way", it's good enough.
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Honestly, if you are getting into fights that are well out of pistol range, then there are better, and less minmaxy, ways to deal with the situation. I mean, Long Range for a heavy pistol is 21-40m. That's roughly 69-131 feet (or 33-44 yards) away. We're talking a third of a football field.
If you're getting into fights outside that range, some better choices would be:
Picking up Automatics so you can get an assault rifle
Learning Sneaking and Perception so you can get closer before combat starts
Learn how to break off and force the enemy to come to you
SR isn't Call of Duty. If you are finding yourself charging into bullets, then you probably need to rethink your strategy, rather than trying to get your gun to shoot further.
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Ok GR. I wouldn't trust aiming a firearm to a GPS navigation system with delusions of grandeur ("Thirty five degree angle, left. Aim up, twenty Degrees. Target has moved. Aim right, five degrees."), but I'm strangely ok with you doing it somewhere I'm not.
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That's basically what the default smartgun system is though. Granted it's incredibly intuitive and user-friendly and any non-AR substitute would need to be able to match it in those performance categories, but I see no reason they could not be made. After all, if modern iron sights can compensate for windage and elevation, why not futuristic ones made of holograms and/or nanobots?
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If they are made of "holograms and nanobots" they are no longer "iron" sights.
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Ok GR. I wouldn't trust aiming a firearm to a GPS navigation system with delusions of grandeur ("Thirty five degree angle, left. Aim up, twenty Degrees. Target has moved. Aim right, five degrees."), but I'm strangely ok with you doing it somewhere I'm not.
And yet, Modern Day Cruise Missiles/ICBM's are targeted by GPS...
As are some Guidable Bombs and Artillery Shells...
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How do you see that as relevant?
As long as something manages to correct your aim by saying "aim a bit more that way", it's good enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xLR5mjkfs4
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How do you see that as relevant?
As long as something manages to correct your aim by saying "aim a bit more that way", it's good enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xLR5mjkfs4
The comment replied to was about trusting GPS as a means of Aiming deadly intent...
I wouldn't trust aiming a firearm to a GPS navigation system with delusions of grandeur
We do that all the time. And on a far larger scale. :)
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I remember the good ol' days....
Like when Germany bombed England using nothing but a slide rule......
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If they are made of "holograms and nanobots" they are no longer "iron" sights.
Not necessarily true in the case of nanobots, and a meaningless technicality in any case. What's important is that they function on the same principles as iron sights.
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Bah, kids these days with their nanoforged guns and their fancy little doohickeys. What do y'all call those again? Oh, right..."smartlinks", bah! All them fancy toys, yet not a single one of ya's ever landed a shot on me, nor are ya gunna! So don't none of y'all youngins get any bright ideas! -grumbles and goes back to cleaning vintage firearms-
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I remember the good ol' days....
Like when Germany bombed England using nothing but a slide rule......
Homes and schools in London regularly have to be evacuated as German slide rules are found on construction sites.
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I remember the good ol' days....
Like when Germany bombed England using nothing but a slide rule......
Homes and schools in London regularly have to be evacuated as German slide rules are found on construction sites.
Watch out for those slide rulers! They make great dual welded stabby and blunt force objects!
True fact: the Slide Rule killed more math teachers in the early 20th century then any other cause! (Usually cause some student would wigg out in frustration and beat the teacherto death with it...)
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The comment replied to was about trusting GPS as a means of Aiming deadly intent...
No.
The comment you replied to was about using GPS-based verbal navigation to aim a firearm - and the mention of GPS was only in there so there would be a reference point for something slow and hindering in the process. ;)
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No one else has actually suggested verbal navigation for a smartlink system though.
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As long as something manages to correct your aim by saying "aim a bit more that way", it's good enough.
A thesaurus might be a good investment if you don't mean "speaking" when you use "saying". ::)
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So, you choose to interpret "saying" as "speaking" when the context suggests that "communicating" would be a more appropriate interpretation, and somehow I'm the one who needs a thesaurus?
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Ok GR. I wouldn't trust aiming a firearm to a GPS navigation system with delusions of grandeur ("Thirty five degree angle, left. Aim up, twenty Degrees. Target has moved. Aim right, five degrees."), but I'm strangely ok with you doing it somewhere I'm not.
And yet, Modern Day Cruise Missiles/ICBM's are targeted by GPS...
As are some Guidable Bombs and Artillery Shells...
WW2 ships had analog computers that calculated firing solutions in real-time and even aimed the guns. They were big and primitive by modern day standards, and they needed a team of people inputting variables by spinning wheels and moving switches, but they were computers and hit their targets all the same. Aircraft had a similar idea.
And to be quite honest, if I can trust a 2017 computer to drive and parallel-park my car without incident, then I think I could trust a 2075 one to aim a firearm accurately.
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So, you choose to interpret "saying" as "speaking" when the context suggests that "communicating" would be a more appropriate interpretation, and somehow I'm the one who needs a thesaurus?
Only if you want to be clear. My apologies if that's not your actual intent. Tone rarely comes through the internet in its original state.
I read into it as such initially, not because I believed it was your proper and true intent, but because it was an amusing image for me and humour is the most (if not only) meaningful thing to take from our continued talking to each other in this topic. Since then, we've managed to misinterpret, explain, and disagree that to death. Good job. :)