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[SR6] Edition Poll

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FastJack

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« Reply #45 on: <08-09-19/1820:02> »
There is no minimum snark in my post, I see people with a book they don't like and I don't have and I honestly want to buy it.

Hey, if that perspective works for you, then you go with that. I just call them like I see them, and you saying what you said to him immediately followed by reminding us to keep it constructive was definitely the pot calling the kettle black.

That aside, I don't think it is unreasonable to objectively call some elements of the book a mess. Needing 10 pages of errata released as the printed copies were already being sold at the con is certainly fair to view as sloppy.
Thanks for calling it. tenchi2a made a comment regarding the game that wasn’t constructive, after I had posted more than once to keep criticism constructive, which is a term of service that sveryone agreed to when they created an account on the forums. Even after numerous posters have been warned (officially and unofficially) so that the boards don’t devolve into “the new rules sux! If you like them ur stoopid!” arguments that are not conducive to new players and a welcoming atmosphere for all fans of Shadowrun.

My comment, even with snark was not criticizing the game. It may have criticized the player a little, but I’m chalking it up to the fact that, even with all the complaining and product delays and reported errors, the book sold out at GenCon. I’m still looking forward to it, even if you may not.

I will never censor any opinion of the game (unless using extreme language that’s not family-friendly), because I respect all opinions. But that works both ways.

tenchi2a

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« Reply #46 on: <08-09-19/1836:54> »
There is no minimum snark in my post, I see people with a book they don't like and I don't have and I honestly want to buy it.

Hey, if that perspective works for you, then you go with that. I just call them like I see them, and you saying what you said to him immediately followed by reminding us to keep it constructive was definitely the pot calling the kettle black.

That aside, I don't think it is unreasonable to objectively call some elements of the book a mess. Needing 10 pages of errata released as the printed copies were already being sold at the con is certainly fair to view as sloppy.
Thanks for calling it. tenchi2a made a comment regarding the game that wasn’t constructive, after I had posted more than once to keep criticism constructive, which is a term of service that sveryone agreed to when they created an account on the forums. Even after numerous posters have been warned (officially and unofficially) so that the boards don’t devolve into “the new rules sux! If you like them ur stoopid!” arguments that are not conducive to new players and a welcoming atmosphere for all fans of Shadowrun.

My comment, even with snark was not criticizing the game. It may have criticized the player a little, but I’m chalking it up to the fact that, even with all the complaining and product delays and reported errors, the book sold out at GenCon. I’m still looking forward to it, even if you may not.

I will never censor any opinion of the game (unless using extreme language that’s not family-friendly), because I respect all opinions. But that works both ways.

And again my comment was not directed at the game, but at the attempted censorship by a forum poster of another opinion.
But if it help you sleep at night to believe I was attacking the game have at it.

As to the sales at GenCon, D&D 4th editions sold out also and we have all seen how that went.

I'll just sit back and watch as the "Hell no" counter keeps raising.
« Last Edit: <08-09-19/1838:39> by tenchi2a »

FastJack

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« Reply #47 on: <08-09-19/1850:41> »
Please remember to try and keep criticisms constructive and not just "this sucks."

It amazing that you got that from my comment.

The MC was claiming that the poster could not complain about the issues he posted because CGL had stated that this was going to be the case.
My comment was a quote from the nostalgia critic about how this is an invalided point because saying you did something someone else doesn't like on purpose doesn't invalidate his opinion.
So now CGL is going to use rule #7 to silence opposition to the new rule, that's fine.
As I was not directly talking about the game you are wrong, but I expect that this makes no diffrence to CGL.
I expect the ban-hammer to be pulled out at this point to end all opposition to the new rule under shaky rulings.
Normally, I don't need/have to explain why a warning goes out.

Re-read MC's post. It's detailed and constructive, even if it's not something you agree with.

I know the quote, I'm a fan of NC. But simply posting a quote of a reviewer that goes into great detail as to why he said that, and then not going into ANY detail as to why you feel that way, means that you're not being constructive in your opinion.

We, the Shadowrun Team, are not CGL and we are NOT going to "silence opposition". If we wanted to silence you, all your posts would be deleted, your IP and emails would be permanently banned, and your account would no longer exist. Do you honestly believe that if we were trying to silence you, we would allow all the other posts where forum users have gone into great detail where they hate the new edge system and gave detailed reasons why?

Your post was quoting another poster, implying that you were directing it to the conversation at hand, in a thread discussing the game, in a forum about the game. If you were posting in Off-topic, I wouldn't have even have warned you. But since you were joining the conversation, there are consequences to throwing out comments that could be (and therefore had been) construed as a criticism of the game.

You've got one warning. As far as I remember, it's your first and only warning. To get permanently banned, you either have to consistently break the terms of service seven time within a reasonable time period to get permanently banned. The only exception to this was a user that argued with me about his infractions, then tried to illegally get around those infractions by creating false accounts that appeared to be other forum posters. He got permanently banned and then bitched about me on Dumpshock. You are not like him at all, and I like hearing from you and others that are not fans of the new rules. All of your posts help new players come in and make a balanced call on whether or not they want to purchase them, and I'm also seeing a lot of house rules being written up that will probably even make it into my games.

The only person that gets you banned is you. If we swung the hammer as much as you implied, this would quickly turn into a very empty forum.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #48 on: <08-09-19/1854:06> »
Ah I just had a giggle about StainIess Steel Devil Rat.

Tragedy + Time = Comedy.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #49 on: <08-09-19/1857:00> »
Ah I just had a giggle about StainIess Steel Devil Rat.

Tragedy + Time = Comedy.
You remembered what letter he cheated with?! :o
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #50 on: <08-09-19/1859:54> »
Ah I just had a giggle about StainIess Steel Devil Rat.

Tragedy + Time = Comedy.
You remembered what letter he cheated with?! :o

He actually had me going for a good 2 or 3 minutes that my account was hacked.  You don't forget the relief you feel when you realize the oh so subtle difference in this font between I and l.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

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« Reply #51 on: <08-09-19/1900:48> »
Even after numerous posters have been warned (officially and unofficially) so that the boards don’t devolve into “the new rules sux! If you like them ur stoopid!” arguments that are not conducive

Yeah, passions have ignited and tempers flared around here lately. No argument there. I fully agree that calling someone a name and just saying "this sucks" without offering feedback why are not helpful, but some folks have also been really sensitive of late of any criticism. The fact of the matter is that you can certainly offer criticism without being a jerk, but the very nature of criticizing something is to call into question someone's idea, design, or decision.

For example, numerous times I have stated critique along the lines of "This design decision is nonsensical because x", and "Catalyst does not appear to have learned from past mistakes because x", and so. Me saying that a decision does not make sense or is foolish does not mean I think the designer is stupid - it means I question the specific decision being discussed. On the other hand, I know receiving criticism on something you've worked on isn't fun either.

I’m still looking forward to it, even if you may not.

And there is nothing wrong with that. I hope it proves to be a lot of fun for you. I don't hate 6e, but I do strongly disagree with a number of the game design decisions. My bigger issue is my growing belief that Catalyst is unwilling/unable to learn from past mistakes, or they are ceasing to care about the quality of this title. In particular, seeing Loren Coleman around on video at the GenCon Q&A is intensely disgusting to me, and I truly have no idea how that guy is still with the company or permitted to be involved with game publishing whatsoever. Those are my concerns though - it's not on anyone else to wrestle with those.

I will never censor any opinion of the game (unless using extreme language that’s not family-friendly), because I respect all opinions. But that works both ways.

Also totally fair.


"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Typhus

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« Reply #52 on: <08-09-19/1916:13> »
Quote
6we isn't any more of a mess than 5e was

I almost disagreed with you based on the character generation section.  Then I remembered I failed to build a decker the first time out in 5E because of how badly things were laid out and explained. 

I'm not sure the two being equal in problem level is a point of distinction to quibble over for any of us.  Take a step back and think about what we're really talking about.  Two books from the same publisher with so many problems that it takes hard work by fans just to make them usable.   :P 

Yikes.

To be fair to the authors who may be on the board, CGL really let you all down.  I'm sure this in no way is anyone's best work ever, but I don't lay that at your feet.  Process and oversight create messes or prevent them.  Chaotic product indicates chaotic process with iffy oversight.  Sorry this happened to you.  Now you folks will be feeling heat that belongs somewhere else, but those people don't appear to show up here.

On the flip side, I'm actually interested to hear from people how to make this thing work, because I may end up at a table playing it someday, and I don't want to be that guy who whinges about the system while I play.  Any bright spot I can find, maybe I can embrace in the moment.

Edit: My post needed Errata.
« Last Edit: <08-09-19/1938:47> by Typhus »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #53 on: <08-09-19/1934:41> »
If one wants to constructively help ensure 6we gets the errata it needs, this early phase is a great opportunity to ask questions and offer suggestions. The thousand or so people who got a gen con copy of the CRB have way more eyes than the writing and errata team.

And I empathise with FJ... I'd totally be asking "well, can I have it then?" when people complain about how they regret having a CRB if I didn't have opportunity to already have a copy myself.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Typhus

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« Reply #54 on: <08-09-19/1941:49> »
It doesn't needs errata, it needs a rewrite.  I can't seem to go more than a few pages without a problem cropping up.  That would be my suggestion.  And that genuinely is meant as constructive.

tenchi2a

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« Reply #55 on: <08-09-19/2101:56> »
It doesn't needs errata, it needs a rewrite.  I can't seem to go more than a few pages without a problem cropping up.  That would be my suggestion.  And that genuinely is meant as constructive.
+1

topcat

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« Reply #56 on: <08-10-19/1051:51> »
6we isn't any more of a mess than 5e was.

The layout and editing is roughly on par, but that's not necessarily a good thing.  Archetypes shouldn't have been in either book until the rules were fnialized, but that's a CGL trademark now.

It feels like SR6 has a lot more errors in core chargen and gameplay when compared to SR5: missing tables, bad numbers, conflicting rules, examples not matching tables, etc.  It desperately needed a review by non-interested parties prior to printing.  Better delayed than... yeah.

If Fallout '76 was a rulebook, it'd be SR6.

topcat

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« Reply #57 on: <08-10-19/1054:52> »
It doesn't needs errata, it needs a rewrite.  I can't seem to go more than a few pages without a problem cropping up.  That would be my suggestion.  And that genuinely is meant as constructive.
+1
+1

The good news is that CGL made their self-imposed deadline.  The bad news is how CGL made their self-imposed deadline.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #58 on: <08-10-19/1059:14> »

It feels like SR6 has a lot more errors in core chargen and gameplay when compared to SR5: missing tables, bad numbers, conflicting rules, examples not matching tables, etc.
Uhm. So did SR5. TONS. Of which most were never resolved. And what did get fixed eventually wasn't as fine grained as the hotfix is doing now.

At least we don't need a word of god twitter account. Plus the errata team is doing a great job.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

topcat

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« Reply #59 on: <08-10-19/1112:36> »
Uhm. So did SR5. TONS. Of which most were never resolved. And what did get fixed eventually wasn't as fine grained as the hotfix is doing now.

At least we don't need a word of god twitter account. Plus the errata team is doing a great job.

Looking even at my old Origins-edition SR5, it's nowher near as bad as this release.
« Last Edit: <08-10-19/1124:20> by topcat »