[All4BigGuns]

Shouldn't you wait a year to see rather than theory crafting?

I mean proving things with math doesn't count right?

Dude, if you can't see the difference between overly exorbitant implant pricing and character types like the Mystic Adept, I don't know what to tell you.

[ZeConster]

Shouldn't you wait a year to see rather than theory crafting?

I mean proving things with math doesn't count right?

Dude, if you can't see the difference between overly exorbitant implant pricing and character types like the Mystic Adept, I don't know what to tell you.

Considering how absolute and obvious the Mystic Adept's advantage during character advancement is, if that should be allowed to play out for a few months, so should implant pricing.

[Crunch]

Shouldn't you wait a year to see rather than theory crafting?

I mean proving things with math doesn't count right?

Dude, if you can't see the difference between overly exorbitant implant pricing and character types like the Mystic Adept, I don't know what to tell you.

You want to knee jerk change one chargen balance issue, but let another drag out for a year. It's an apples to apples comparison and the only difference is your opinion on the issue.

[All4BigGuns]

Shouldn't you wait a year to see rather than theory crafting?

I mean proving things with math doesn't count right?

Dude, if you can't see the difference between overly exorbitant implant pricing and character types like the Mystic Adept, I don't know what to tell you.

You want to knee jerk change one chargen balance issue, but let another drag out for a year. It's an apples to apples comparison and the only difference is your opinion on the issue.

The only reason you think it's an "apples to apples" comparison is because of your opinion on the issue.

[Crunch]

It's two discussions of balancing mechanics in the game, and my position is entirely consistent.

To put it plainly, we are intelligent people with enough information to begin discussing obvious balance issues and those decisions need to examine the issues in context.

Your position on the other hand is that we can change rules you like, but can't even discuss rules you like until they've had a year.

[All4BigGuns]

No, the pricing issue is pretty much the result of trying to force slow advancement of gear/implants without considering that it would cause the problem of the character being able to retire by the time they can get the implant.

[Mäx]

Dude, if you can't see the difference between overly exorbitant implant pricing and character types like the Mystic Adept, I don't know what to tell you.

Whats that difference?
Both are unbalanced at chargen and more so after.

[Crunch]

Actually the Augmentation prices are fine. I have yet to see any evidence that Augment samurai are at any sort of disadvantage at any point in arc. I actually think the dev team did a great job of finding a sweet spot for gear prices that let Samurai be competitive, but still have room to grow.

[All4BigGuns]

Actually the Augmentation prices are fine. I have yet to see any evidence that Augment samurai are at any sort of disadvantage at any point in arc. I actually think the dev team did a great job of finding a sweet spot for gear prices that let Samurai be competitive, but still have room to grow.

Correction, they would have been fine if the maximum starting resources had gone back to 1 million as well. There was plenty of room to grow in SR3 (which had similar pricing and the aforementioned max starting resources).

[Mäx]

Actually the Augmentation prices are fine. I have yet to see any evidence that Augment samurai are at any sort of disadvantage at any point in arc. I actually think the dev team did a great job of finding a sweet spot for gear prices that let Samurai be competitive, but still have room to grow.

You can get very little ware in chargen even as used and after unless GM starts to pay hell a lot per run upgrades are very very uncommon.
And there was quite a bit of room to grow in SR4 and in SR3 also(same prices, sams started with million nuyen)

[All4BigGuns]

The main things not really feasible in SR3 were stuff like Move-by-Wire 4 which was only really feasible in Delta grade, and one could buy a permanent Luxury lifestyle and still have a couple million left over to save and use the interest for anti-aging gene treatments with that one.

[Crunch]

Actually the Augmentation prices are fine. I have yet to see any evidence that Augment samurai are at any sort of disadvantage at any point in arc. I actually think the dev team did a great job of finding a sweet spot for gear prices that let Samurai be competitive, but still have room to grow.

You can get very little ware in chargen even as used and after unless GM starts to pay hell a lot per run upgrades are very very uncommon.
And there was quite a bit of room to grow in SR4 and in SR3 also(same prices, sams started with million nuyen)

Your experience of SR3 must have differed from mine substantially. I don't think I ever saw an SR1-3 Sam upgrade their core stats or skill sets after chargen.

And while it is true that 5E sams get less ware, they don't seem to be doing badly when compared to other archetypes. Notably Samurai seem to be doing better when compared to Mages and Riggers in the frontline combat role Samurai are supposed to fill.

Plus Samurai have significantly more upgrade from the Karma side of the Karma/Nuyen equation.

[Michael Chandra]

The extreme high levels of all the shiny toys are clearly meant for Legend Levels. If you want those, start with AABCC or AAABMundane, double the resources, make it 100 starting karma instead of 25 and triple nuyen and karma rewards. If you want to build to those fast, double or triple the rewards, or quadruple the rewards and lifestyle costs. As it is now, all chars start at lower levels and take half a decade to get near Legend level, including the augmentations or magical abilities. Which even I find sluggish, so I'm likely to heavily boost them.

[SoulGambit]

Note: Not having statted out Adepts, I'm sure they can't actually get all of what I'm saying at the same time.

Street Samurai vs Adept
+4+1d6 vs +3+3d6 Initiative
30 Armor vs 20-26 Armor, leaning lower for the Adept
+4 vs +0 Condition Modifier
+3 vs +1 Unarmed DV
+3 vs +4* Strength
+3 vs +4* Agility
'+1 vs +3 Skill Ranks
+0 vs +2 Unarmed Attacks (Mentor Spirit)
+4 vs +6 Defense
+0 vs +3 To-Hit

*: Requires the Adept to spend a Simple Action per trait.

At 114 XP (All in skills, for the sake of being easy), +180k Nuyen, 30% Sell Rate
+4+2d6 vs +3+3d6 Initiative
34 Armor vs 24-30 Armor
+4 vs +0 Condition Modifier
+3 vs +1 Unarmed DV
+4 vs +4* Strength
+4 vs +4* Agility
'+1 vs +6 Skill Ranks
+0 vs +2 Unarmed Attacks (Mentor Spirit)
+4 vs +6 Defense
Ignore Stun Damage vs Not Ignore Stun Damage

*: Requires the Adept to spend a Simple Action per trait.

[All4BigGuns]

Note: Not having statted out Adepts, I'm sure they can't actually get all of what I'm saying at the same time.

Street Samurai vs Adept
+4+1d6 vs +3+3d6 Initiative
30 Armor vs 20-26 Armor, leaning lower for the Adept
+4 vs +0 Condition Modifier
+3 vs +1 Unarmed DV
+3 vs +4* Strength
+3 vs +4* Agility
'+1 vs +3 Skill Ranks
+0 vs +2 Unarmed Attacks (Mentor Spirit)
+4 vs +6 Defense
+0 vs +3 To-Hit

*: Requires the Adept to spend a Simple Action per trait.

At 114 XP (All in skills, for the sake of being easy), +180k Nuyen, 30% Sell Rate
+4+2d6 vs +3+3d6 Initiative
34 Armor vs 24-30 Armor
+4 vs +0 Condition Modifier
+3 vs +1 Unarmed DV
+4 vs +4* Strength
+4 vs +4* Agility
'+1 vs +6 Skill Ranks
+0 vs +2 Unarmed Attacks (Mentor Spirit)
+4 vs +6 Defense
Ignore Stun Damage vs Not Ignore Stun Damage

*: Requires the Adept to spend a Simple Action per trait.

I'm assuming you used Attribute Boost for the Strength and Agility bonuses there, remember also that with that power, the Strength boost will only affect those few dice pools related to Strength and nothing else (no Limit or unarmed DV increase).