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[SR5] Locational Damage

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RickDeckard

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« on: <01-26-22/0537:43> »
I've played a number of other roleplaying systems that featured specific limb damage, which gives a more realistic feeling of damage to ones PC. Not only that, it also gives the GM a good way to describe the damage done, along with critical hit tables, that doesn't put the "blame" square on him if a character loses an arm, say. There's a big difference between a PC losing a limb to a rule based cause over GM simply saying "I think you should lose an arm". Damage descriptions also tend to be more watered down when no one knows where you actually got hit.

For a severely rules heavy system like SR it surprises me that there's no limb/locational damage system (does anyone know why?). It seems like a no-brainer for a system like this that features called shots, firearms, narcojects, blades, armor pieces (helmets, vest, longcoats, etc). Especially considering that losing a limb in SR is more of a cool challenge than the debilitating character-ending injury it would be in a fantasy setting. We have cyberlimbs and vat-grown limbs and what not that would simply change a character a bit rather than put them out of the game forever. "Lose an eye? Hey, Mass-Neotech has a 50% special offer on the brand new MassEye3000 this week!"

Has anyone ever house ruled something like this?

Xenon

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« Reply #1 on: <01-26-22/1546:48> »
For a severely rules heavy system like SR it surprises me that there's no limb/locational damage system (does anyone know why?).
Shadowrun always had a certain level of abstraction. As you note, there are no hit zones in Shadowrun (any edition). Reason for this is that it speed up combat- and in most cases it works well. But abstraction also produce edge cases that doesn't really make sense (an armored jacket offer the same level of protection even if you call a shot to the head, for example).

I played a rule-set that went the other way. Had detailed hit zones (not just arms and legs and torso etc, also hand, elbow, shoulder). Instead of 3 second combat turns they had 0.1 second phases where different actions cost different number of phases to complete. Super detailed. The result though? A simple shootout taking more than an hour to resolve. Very detailed. But (personally) not very fun. Would fit well for a cRPG though :)

6th edition push the abstraction to eleven. For example, armor, armor penetration and armor soak are now factored into base weapon damage rather than being calculated every time you get hit. This speed up combat even further- and (just like not using hit-zones) in most cases it works well. But (just like not using hit-zones) it also produce new edge cases that doesn't really make sense (a heavy pistol will deal the same amount of base damage no matter if the target wear a bikini or an armored jacket, for example).

A lot of people think that they pushed it a bit too far here, but it does speed up combat. You also have people that think this let them focus on more important things (its the whole Role Playing vs Roll Playing debate all over).

Truth is probably that different level of resolution fit different people. The same rules might for someone feel too complex and slow down combat to a grind while for others the same rules might feel too abstract and don't make sense.

RickDeckard

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« Reply #2 on: <01-27-22/0808:16> »
I agree that it would add another layer of complexity, but that was never SRs concern. It’s a rule complex game by nature and it excels in detailed combat sequences. After all, that’s usually the height of any run so why not go all out. There are plenty other complex combat rules I’d rather live without (shooting through barriers, shooting at targets in a moving vehicle and rigging all come to mind). So it just seems like a weird place to cut complexity, especially when it could be done so easily. Wouldn’t add much time either. Instead of saying “you take 7p dmg” you say “you take 7p dmg in the chest” and maybe a critical hit roll. I’d take that.
« Last Edit: <01-30-22/0438:41> by RickDeckard »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #3 on: <01-27-22/1019:55> »
SR5 did have location-based called shots, which come with side-effects but will impact how much damage you can do max. I did like the idea, but not entire execution.
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RickDeckard

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« Reply #4 on: <01-30-22/0440:58> »
Yeah that doesn't really add what I'd want from limb dmg. The whole thing is mostly to make better use of cyberlimbs. I haven't really seen any rules on dmg to cyberware either, like if you take a round in your cybereye it stands to reason that you'd have to get that fixed or replaced.

MercilessMing

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« Reply #5 on: <01-30-22/0827:03> »
I'd love to see that too.  I mean, for a game that prominently features the replacement of body parts with metal pieces, it sure does lack mechanics to lose your body parts or get saved by getting hit in your metal parts.

Finstersang

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« Reply #6 on: <01-31-22/0945:56> »
Huh, never thought of it like that, but you´re surely right! Nothing against a bit of "Simplification", but in a Cyberpunk Setting with Augmentations, stuff like Hit Zones and Limb Loss is surely not a trivial aspect that absolutely needs to be steamrolled.

SR5 did have location-based called shots, which come with side-effects but will impact how much damage you can do max. I did like the idea, but not entire execution.

Yup, because most of them are very underwhelming for the Attacker: High Chance of Failuren due to staggeringly high negative Modifiers, underwhelming effects (No loss of limbs, f.i.). Unsurprisingly, 6th Edition is even worse in this regard, with mandatory Edge costs slapped on everything  ::)

Suggestion: You could intruduce Limb loss (and other lasting trauma!) at your table as an aftereffect to either going into overflow (less severe effects) or exceeding overflow and also surviving by burning Edge (more severely). You could make a table similar to those used in systems like Dark Heresy, where players have to roll on what kind of lasting damage they retain.  Higher values lead to more serious injuries that warrant additional medical treatment or replacement parts. The final amount of overflow damage before Stabilization is added to the result, and when overflow is exceeded, the rolled value is doubled. The effects could range from temporary problems (broken arms, heavy breathing, sensory issues...) to minor permanent damages (Lasting Scars, loss of a finger or a single Eye) to increasingly severe issues like Attribute Damage, Nerve issues, Full Limb Loss or even the loss of multiple Limbs and Organs. Apart from physical problems, you can also include mental Trauma (PTSD, Flashbacks) with appropriate negative Qualities in that list. Maybe you already though about something like that  ;)
 

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #7 on: <02-01-22/0515:21> »
I was wondering if it was possible for you to spend a single post not attacking Sixth Edition, and now I have my answer. Cheers.
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MercilessMing

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« Reply #8 on: <02-01-22/1048:08> »
Some real simple great hit/bad soak mechanics could get the job done.  If you throw out RAW glitch mechanics in favor of Anarchy style Glitch Dice, it becomes real easy.  Loss of limb type things could be what happens when the attack gets a 6 on the glitch die and the soak gets a 1 on the glitch die.

Tying body part loss to overflow deadly damage is fine too, it reminds me of pre-4e mechanics, but it lacks immediacy.  A damage location mechanic would be helpful for smaller damage that could inflict status effects.  It would also give us great moments where a big hit does no CM damage because it hit someone's cyberarm.

RickDeckard

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« Reply #9 on: <02-03-22/0836:10> »
Huh, never thought of it like that, but you´re surely right! Nothing against a bit of "Simplification", but in a Cyberpunk Setting with Augmentations, stuff like Hit Zones and Limb Loss is surely not a trivial aspect that absolutely needs to be steamrolled.

SR5 did have location-based called shots, which come with side-effects but will impact how much damage you can do max. I did like the idea, but not entire execution.

Yup, because most of them are very underwhelming for the Attacker: High Chance of Failuren due to staggeringly high negative Modifiers, underwhelming effects (No loss of limbs, f.i.). Unsurprisingly, 6th Edition is even worse in this regard, with mandatory Edge costs slapped on everything  ::)

Suggestion: You could intruduce Limb loss (and other lasting trauma!) at your table as an aftereffect to either going into overflow (less severe effects) or exceeding overflow and also surviving by burning Edge (more severely). You could make a table similar to those used in systems like Dark Heresy, where players have to roll on what kind of lasting damage they retain.  Higher values lead to more serious injuries that warrant additional medical treatment or replacement parts. The final amount of overflow damage before Stabilization is added to the result, and when overflow is exceeded, the rolled value is doubled. The effects could range from temporary problems (broken arms, heavy breathing, sensory issues...) to minor permanent damages (Lasting Scars, loss of a finger or a single Eye) to increasingly severe issues like Attribute Damage, Nerve issues, Full Limb Loss or even the loss of multiple Limbs and Organs. Apart from physical problems, you can also include mental Trauma (PTSD, Flashbacks) with appropriate negative Qualities in that list. Maybe you already though about something like that  ;)

I have some ideas about grabbing critical/limb dmg from another system I like, but it just won't be completely integrated the way it should be. I like the idea of minor limb loss and cyberware dmg in case of dmg overflow, so I might just keep it as simple as that and let the dice decide which limb has been hit. It's a balance act when you do it on the fly, tho, since it shouldn't be career-ending or bankrupt the PC (my group doesn't really believe in murdering PCs for no apparent reason, we all like our characters and the  bond they have formed).

Reaver

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« Reply #10 on: <03-04-22/2342:16> »
Really late to the party here but:

SR 3e, Man and Machine. Has a WHOLE chapter on healing and damage, and damage to organs, limbs, cyberware and everything else you could (not) want.

I know 2e had some optional rules for this stuff as well, but I can't remember what book its in. (best guess would be the 2e runners companion, or the cyber ware book. Less sure of the cyberware book come to think of it)


And as a player who has originally used the rules, then moved on through the editions, and now just come back to 3e, and started reusing these rules... and abandoned them.


It sounds like fun, and interesting... until it comes time to track, and note the various "imperfections" you have picked up, but couldn't afford to get fixed yet...


Sometimes, "realism" bogs down the "fun". 
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