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Disincentives for Squatter/Street lifestyles?

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Sendaz

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« Reply #90 on: <02-18-15/1015:03> »
@Froggy  Very well written and certainly gives a good example of a street lifestyle.
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Rotten_Emu

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« Reply #91 on: <02-19-15/0703:59> »
That would certainly motivate my character to get a shack to call his own. :P I just wanted to say that all the different explenations and in depth analysis of the lifestyles will really help me liven things up for my players in the future! Thanks everybody!
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Froggy711

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« Reply #92 on: <02-19-15/1821:33> »
It might be a little extreme, but there is a reason why only the most deranged individuals will choose a lifestyle of abject poverty when they have access to money that would allow them to live comfortably. The vast majority do so only because they have no other choice.

I think so long as the discussion is in the land of mechanical penalties(which can work as a deterrent as well) it kind of turns what should be a roleplaying decision into a purely mechanical one. And once the player can mitigate any mechanical penalties associated with a particular lifestyle he will take that lifestyle if it saves him money... because to that player it is only an exercise in mechanics. Once they witness what their choice actually means, then they can go, "Oh, so Shadowrun really isn't a magical place where a person can live on the street and everything will be fine... Living on the street is just as shitty in Shadowrun as it is in real life. Maybe an upgrade in lifestyle is worth it after all..."

Glyph

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« Reply #93 on: <02-19-15/2124:50> »
If someone is choosing a street lifestyle purely for monetary reasons, then the GM simply needs to have logical consequences, and their subsequent costs, happen to the player.  Getting mugged, paying a street doc to treat illnesses or injuries arising from living on the streets, paying for everything as it comes up instead of having it be covered by a lifestyle - eventually, the player will realize that, as the Brits would say, he is being "penny wise but pound foolish".

PiXeL01

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« Reply #94 on: <02-20-15/0551:18> »
One reason why samurai usually live in the gutter or abandoned houses is they are saving up for that new implant or upgrade and will see any money thrown towards lifestyle has ball-and-chain around their legs that the awakened do not have. The latter can hoard their money because they really don't need it as much as the mundanes do. That is why many don't. Also the payout for runs are really low as of raw plus the setting itself.

But the dilemma is always "why would a 1 mil $ samurai choose or is forced to a life on the streets?"
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MijRai

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« Reply #95 on: <02-20-15/1149:22> »
The real trick is to take those modifiable lifestyles to make a custom one; cut down on everything that's 'superfluous' while boosting security. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #96 on: <02-20-15/1345:08> »
One reason why samurai usually live in the gutter or abandoned houses is they are saving up for that new implant or upgrade and will see any money thrown towards lifestyle has ball-and-chain around their legs that the awakened do not have. The latter can hoard their money because they really don't need it as much as the mundanes do. That is why many don't. Also the payout for runs are really low as of raw plus the setting itself.

But the dilemma is always "why would a 1 mil $ samurai choose or is forced to a life on the streets?"

Yep, it's really simple there. Get a good lifestyle and keep it up to date on payments or actually advance the non-skill portions of your character. The smart player will choose the latter and the good GM will accept that and not punish them for it.
... why is it, Guns, that you see it as 'punishment' when every other GM in the world would see something like this as 'enforcement of your choice'?  If the player doesn't want to pay for security, heat, steady food, and the rest, then fine - as a GM, you're directing the rest of the world, and there are consequences for choices, both good and bad.  Good consequence - they save up money.  Bad consequence - they have to deal with other squatters, devil rats, and the occasional ghoul looking for a meal.  You pay money in order to not have those little problems, or you save your money and you accept that you are going to have those problems on an irregular basis.  That isn't punishment, that's enforcement of choice.  If you're going to 'not punish' - enforce - a player's choice of a lower-end lifestyle, then why don't you simply give everyone in the group a Middle Lifestyle for free??  Because that's what you're allowing.
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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #97 on: <02-20-15/1347:29> »
One reason why samurai usually live in the gutter or abandoned houses is they are saving up for that new implant or upgrade and will see any money thrown towards lifestyle has ball-and-chain around their legs that the awakened do not have. The latter can hoard their money because they really don't need it as much as the mundanes do. That is why many don't. Also the payout for runs are really low as of raw plus the setting itself.

But the dilemma is always "why would a 1 mil $ samurai choose or is forced to a life on the streets?"

Yep, it's really simple there. Get a good lifestyle and keep it up to date on payments or actually advance the non-skill portions of your character. The smart greedy, mechanically-only oriented player will choose the latter and the good GM that doesn't really care will accept that and not punish them for it.
Fixed. My opinion only, just like your statement was.

If there's no consequences for living on the street, why would anyone spend money on lifestyles?

Namikaze

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« Reply #98 on: <02-20-15/1649:54> »
Any time that a GM does anything that reinforces the idea that a choice has consequences, A4BG makes it into a "punishment" and claims that the GM is a "bad GM."  I like to think of myself as a "good GM" and consequences are something that all of my players must deal with.  This is what makes the game real, and probably 90% of the players I've played with have appreciated that sense of realism.  The other 10% of those players probably had the impression that the game was going to be something ridiculously unrealistic.  Like Shadowrun-themed Dragonball or some stupid thing like that.
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MijRai

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« Reply #99 on: <02-20-15/1743:34> »
Agreed with the last two folks.  You have to have consequences; otherwise, nothing could go wrong.  It applies to far more than just Lifestyles too (though, any character who thinks they could just live on the street without a care is one of the few I'd allow to have Logic 1).  Corp-Sec showing up is a consequence of you tripping the alarm, a hitman coming after you for doing a job is a consequence of taking that great paycheck, addiction is the consequence of taking drugs.  Consequences are a part of the game and life itself.  Should a person who racks up Notoriety with every mission for collateral damage out the ass and posting trideos of his killing sprees onto the Matrix be getting Robin Hood or discrete job offers?  No, just like how a person who lives on the street without running water, hygiene supplies, or even a door with a lock shouldn't be doing well. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Sendaz

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« Reply #100 on: <02-20-15/1818:24> »
To be fair, part of the issue is tied in with the SIN system.

If you are SINless you are not supposed to be able to go out and rent a regular apartment or all the other normal day to day stuff.

For some the Squatter lifestyle is how they see their characters being, since even a Low lifestyle requires some kind of SIN in play.
So they are renting a coffin at the motel for the night or hanging out in some abandoned corner in the Barrens they carve out for themselves.
It's less about crowing about how much money they are saving and more about being stuck in the bottom rungs that money alone can't buy your way out of.

Should Squatter be easy living? Hell no, you have to scrap for what's yours and travel pretty lightly, but it still miles about living on the streets entirely.
I had a period in my life where I fell between those cracks and lived like that for a time. It's somewhere you don't want to stay, but for some it is not so easy to claw their way back.
One buddy basically burned his life thanks to a short temper and loads of outstanding warrants resulting from same so he will never be coming back out of that lifestyle because jail time would be the only thing he could look forward to.

Thankfully the Keys are not the worst place to be homeless, least the weather is survivable and there are plenty of folk who pay cash under the table for odd jobs.
But it is still a shitty way to live, so yeah a GM should play up those aspects to reflect the hazards of that style of living, but don't make it totally unsurvivable either. 


Of course the answer for a Player is to just go get a SIN, which for most runners is usually a fake, but then you need a minimum of three really- one for your day life and a separate one you use when running and the third for when things go tits up and you make a run for the hills. And that is not taking into account the usual turnover in burning a SIN or two along the way.

It does sometimes seem like the heavy prevalence of fake SINs (I mean you are not just getting one, but 2 or 3 at least) just sort of undermines the dystopian feel though.
So you do get more runners who can go grab a better lifestyle, but some will still want that grittier feel to their character living on the edge rather than basically playing Zorro- bandit by night, respectable person by day.
« Last Edit: <02-20-15/1854:26> by Sendaz »
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #101 on: <02-20-15/2101:04> »
... people purchase fewer than three SINs??
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Glyph

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« Reply #102 on: <02-21-15/1644:08> »
I have a hard time buying a shadowrunner who has the connections to make a living pulling in big paydays as a professional criminal, but lacks the connections to have a fake ID.  Shadowrunners (or wannabe's thereof) who can't get a fake SIN should also be stuck in the Barrens doing low-rent thug work.

If the situation was as All4BigGuns described (either make rent on a decent place, or save up for improving your wired reflexes eventually), I would advise the GM to pay the characters more money.  But the OP is describing a character who is sitting on a pile of money, wondering what to spend it on, who still lives on the streets.  So yeah, the GM needs to show that living a homeless lifestyle on the streets is not all sunshine and roses.

Namikaze

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« Reply #103 on: <02-21-15/1651:16> »
So yeah, the GM needs to show that living a homeless lifestyle on the streets is not all sunshine and roses.

Is it ever sunshine and roses?  I suppose one could be homeless at say... the National Rose Garden, but then they've got to be in Louisiana.  That presents its own set of problems.  :P
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Peter_M_Andrew_Jr

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« Reply #104 on: <02-21-15/1652:33> »
Yes people buy less than three SINs, but do they all buy a Rtg. 1 Fake named Inglbert Humperdink? With a backup of Tutti Fruiti? That's the real question about fake SINs.

Then again, in my game Knight Errant auctions off the naming rights to criminal SINs on an hourly basis, so names can get amusing at times.

Peter