[amiller]

Chummer defaults at 400 BP and 12 for Max Available.

Some of my players are saying that is too low to start.  I am hearing differing opinions on the internet.  What do you guys think is fair??? Should I go 500BP and like 20 Max available or is the default more than fair?  I can see where my players are coming from as there is a lot of bioware and cyberware that base above 12. 

Thank for the opinions.

[Domino]

Honestly, I think the default BP/Avail are perfectly adequate. If your players can start with everything they want, why are they running the shadows at all?

[All4BigGuns]

Chummer defaults at 400 BP and 12 for Max Available.

Some of my players are saying that is too low to start.  I am hearing differing opinions on the internet.  What do you guys think is fair??? Should I go 500BP and like 20 Max available or is the default more than fair?  I can see where my players are coming from as there is a lot of bioware and cyberware that base above 12. 

Thank for the opinions.

Since your players are saying that they feel the default is too low for their enjoyment, I'd say to go for 600 BP or 1200 Karma (let them choose which build to use--Karma Generation is in Runner's Companion), and have the Availability at 20 with Restricted Gear allowing up to 28 (it's the same range of difference). You might also consider slightly higher than that--in points--with triple to quadruple the normal limit on how much can go into Resources.

[emsquared]

Chummer defaults at 400 BP and 12 for Max Available.

Some of my players are saying that is too low to start.  I am hearing differing opinions on the internet.  What do you guys think is fair??? Should I go 500BP and like 20 Max available or is the default more than fair?  I can see where my players are coming from as there is a lot of bioware and cyberware that base above 12. 

Thank for the opinions.

The default is plenty to make powerful and interesting PCs.

Draw their attention to the Restricted Gear Posi Quality. Starting with 500 BP is like starting a D&D campaign at 10th Lvl - you miss all the fun parts. Stronger PCs (should) means stronger opposition, and if I remember correctly, you're pretty new to SR4, amiller? Which (higher power levels) means its easier for you to accidentally kill players.

Default is fine, start there. If after trying it you don't like the resulting PCs, rebuild.

[Crunch]

It honestly depends on what kind of game you want to run, what kind of game your players enjoy and what their specific objections are.

[All4BigGuns]

Starting with 500 BP is like starting a D&D campaign at 10th Lvl - you miss all the fun parts.

Haven't even gotten to the fun stuff yet at that point. The fun stuff really starts around 15th.

[Reaver]

Chummer defaults at 400 BP and 12 for Max Available.

Some of my players are saying that is too low to start.  I am hearing differing opinions on the internet.  What do you guys think is fair??? Should I go 500BP and like 20 Max available or is the default more than fair?  I can see where my players are coming from as there is a lot of bioware and cyberware that base above 12. 

Thank for the opinions.

Start with what you think is best. Keep in mind that the more BP they start with (and higher availability). The stronger the characters will be, which makes your job as the GM harder! What you might think is a challenge for starting characters really isn't once you start increasing the BP/availability.

Keep in mind too that the more 'toys' your runners start off with means less avenues for you to present 'carrots' to them down the road. It also takes away their next logical step in character development and placed the bar that much higher, could lead to player frustration at the pace of the game....
      After all, if you already have wiz toys and cyber, what's the next step? Beta level? Delta? At what cost?? And they are making how much a run???

Be careful with what you do here....

[Mithlas]

Where you start depends on the sort of game you want to run, and how you want progression to go. I've heard of 300 BP builds, which are good for street-level ganger type builds. Campaigns starting on this can stay in one neighborhood, or bump up the karma and nuyen to go global - that depends on what the GM (you) wants.

I started something like this when I ran my first game, everybody started at 750 karma and one neighborhood. After a while of progression, the campaign quickly opened into the city and eventually, North America and Europe. Some GMs find a good groove in street-level campaigns, and according to the fluff that's where most Shadowrunners are (most die before they move out of that level).

[Mantis]

I've never had any problem with the starting defaults in either BP or karma builds. Limits are good. They force you to be creative and think around your problems rather than letting you just hit them with a big hammer. On these boards and the Dumpshock forums, I've never seen anyone complain the starting limits weren't  high enough, though I have seen some say it was too high. Or maybe I just dismiss such posts as power gamers whining and ignore them. 

[All4BigGuns]

Whether the default is enough in most cases (it generally is) or not is beside the point. His players don't feel they'll enjoy the game without having more, so he should give more. Period. Full stop.

[Mithlas]

Sometimes the optimum range lies in the middle, A4.

[All4BigGuns]

Sometimes the optimum range lies in the middle, A4.

Sometimes, yes, but not always.

I have to say that the most fun game I ever had was the SR3 game where we got 150 BP (costs were cheaper back then).

[Carz]

I started my campaign with 450BP and standard 12 availability, and so far I've had no regrets in doing so. It has allowed my player to play 'more costly' concepts like Free Spirit or AI without taking to much a hit in playability.

I'd say find out not only what power level your players want to play at, but also what types of characters they are thinking of playing. Maybe they want to play somethings with high entry costs, like those I mentioned, or a Drake or whatever, and the larger BP will let them do just that.

I didn't see much point in raising availability, but then I have no cyber characters, or heavily equipment dependent characters in my campaign.


I'm not as much in the 'give them everything they want' as All4 is (sometimes GMs just can't, for game balance or even personal GM ability), but if your players want a higher level, find out why, and if it sounds viable to you, then go for it.

Starting with 500 BP is like starting a D&D campaign at 10th Lvl - you miss all the fun parts.

That got me a laugh; I've played D&D so often at lower levels that I won't even consider playing at less than 5th, and my preference would be 10th+. The 'good parts' of D&D for me aren't the 'gritty fantasy' of low levels but the 'heroic fantasy' and 'super heroism' of mid to high levels. My character builds rarely even come together before 7th to 9th level!

And I probably have mentioned before I DMed a group from 1st to 17th and enjoyed every part of the whole campaign, but really liked the higher levels.

Not saying its wrong to love low levels - many people play D&D expressly for the 'gritty fantasy' that low levels embraces. Its just not for everyone.

[Mantis]

If his players have never played how exactly are they going to know if they are going to enjoy the default level? I got the impression that OP is new to the game and is asking for advice on starting a campaign. Until you are familiar with how everything interacts in the game, the best thing to do is start with the defaults. This goes for character building or availability or house rules or anything else. Play as it was intended first and then adjust to taste rather than tweaking everything without knowing the why of it. We can all say "hey, this is broken or you should do it this way" but we've also got experience with the system and our own tastes in what we are looking for. I'd advise to try the vanilla version first before spicing it up. You might find you like things just as they are.
I will agree that he should find out why the players want to adjust those defaults or feel they aren't enough to start with though. If it is just a case of players wanting to have all the fun toys to start, I'd say wait until the game starts. Campaigns where you get everything you want at the start generally don't last very long. It takes a special touch on the GM's part to make them long term and enjoyable and this is usually more than you want to aim for with a first game.

[RHat]

Whether the default is enough in most cases (it generally is) or not is beside the point. His players don't feel they'll enjoy the game without having more, so he should give more. Period. Full stop.

Untrue - there are a variety of factors that could lead them to think that when it isn't the case, with lack of experience with the system being chief amongst them.  Quite often, players are actually not good at knowing what will be fun for them, especially when their direct knowledge is limited.