[jtkirk22]

Hi,

new  player here with no experience from older rule editions. I read the IC and Host section, but it doesn't seem quite clear to me, which counter measurements are expected in which kind of Hosts and when Spiders and IC are "activated" or triggered .

So, which Hosts have Spiders and which ones are intended to have "only" IC (rule of thumb)?

• Do only "big Hosts" have spiders?
• Would you make it dependent from Host rating?
• Do all Hosts have IC?
• Under which circumstances are Spiders or IC triggered (by rules + rule of thumb as how they are intended to work by story/game design)

Would be glad about help! Thanks in advance!

[Michael Chandra]

Spiders are expensive so usually only the big Hosts have them. Smaller ones may have one on call, who may pop in for a patrol, or only when an alarm is triggered. You can influence the difficulty of the hack by deciding on the spider protocol, and could make it something knowledge skills or legwork reveals, awarding players for their preparation efforts with info on how dangerous things will be.

All Hosts have IC, the kind depends on the Host: The less public and more high value, the nastier the IC will be. Usually only Patrol IC is active (in part because IC is a burden on the Host, said past fluff, so it's not all running 24/7), once any kind of alarm triggers more will be deployed.

[Banshee]

to build on what MC said ...

An alarm is raised whenever a hacker fails a hack attempt, Patrol detects the hacker, or if overwatch score gets to a certain point. The OS point you can control a non secure host may not have one before convergence but a secure bug host may have a much lower threshold.

Also as he said spider protocol is strictly something controlled by the GM to adjust the difficulty of a hack. It is easy to think about just like physical security and a spider is just another guard ... so how much does the target value it's property? Enough to have a full time guard (or multiple guards), just one that checks in once in a while, or one that just shows when an alarm is tripped.

Host should always have IC, but may often be just Patrol IC and follow the same principles.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

You can think of "well, what kind of matrix security SHOULD this place have" in the same way as you think of the physical and astral security.

There's no guidelines for how many doors should have what kinds of maglocks.  No guidelines for how many astral barriers a site should have, nor how strong should they be. 


Ultimately, it comes down to the story.  There "should" be enough security in each of Shadowrun's three worlds that the team is challenged, but not SO challenged that they can't succeed.

[jtkirk22]

First of all, thanks for your answers and sorry for my late response. Your posts are really helpful as a general guideline. Just one question concerning alarms:

An alarm is raised whenever a hacker fails a hack attempt, [...]

Do you mean any failed matrix action like a failed control device?

[Xenon]

...any failed matrix action like a failed control device?

Yes.


There are a few exceptions to this.

Probe, for example, seem to only raise an alarm on a glitch ("unless major mistakes are made")
You probably also don't raise an alarm on a failed matrix perception test.
Results of actions linked to attack, however, seem to be always set off alarms whenever successful.
The result of other actions might also be noticed (for example it is probably fairly obvious that a device is suddenly rebooting), but doesn't automatically mean that it will always set off an alarm.

[jtkirk22]

Sounds very reasonable to me. Thanks, Xenon!

[BeCareful]

Is it still possible, in 6we, to have a spider with a control rig, deck, and RCC or some sort of hybrid, so as to co-ordinate all the drones in the building as well as the cybersecurity?

[Michael Chandra]

The designer intent was that you can't form a persona with both an RCC and a Deck. I do imagine that coordinating the drones would be possible through the Host, though without some of the RCC advantages.

... And now I want to write up a Rigger Host, which also features Autosoft-sharing with the security drones and where a Spider can visualize all the feeds and mass-command the security.

[Xenon]

Book isn't very clear on this, hopefully Banshee will fill in the blanks.

But as I see it in this edition the Host will provide spiders, drones and the network as a whole with all necessary matrix attributes
... which make me believe that the spiders in this edition perhaps doesn't really "need" any devices at all?

Having said that, they probably still need to 'access the matrix' in some way (commlink, RCC, cyberdeck or perhaps a terminal of some sort) and they probably also need a source of DNI (wearing trodes or having an implanted datajack, control rig, cyberjack) and if he wish to enter VR he also need access to a sim module (by using a cyberdeck, a modded commlink or by having an implanted control rig).

If my initial assumption is correct (which maybe it isn't) then I think that in this edition we will see everything from low budget corporations using low budget spiders (mostly just depending on the Host network - connecting with a budget commlink modded with a sim module while wearing trodes and not having a control rig at all) to high budget corporations that spare not expense on their spiders (connecting with a high rated RCC and having both a high rated control rig implant and a high rated cyberjack implant at the same time).

The only time it seems as if the spider need to 'access the matrix' via a cyberdeck is if he plan on actually perusing the characters out on the matrix, beyond the boundaries of the host (but now I think we are typically talking more about G-men or DemiGods - rather than Spiders).

[Finstersang]

Is it still possible, in 6we, to have a spider with a control rig, deck, and RCC or some sort of hybrid, so as to co-ordinate all the drones in the building as well as the cybersecurity?

This an even more relevant Question for player characters: First, playing a Rigger/Decker hybrid is quite desireble for some players. Second, clandestine Riggers may really want to add a Sleaze Attribute to their WAN, to help protect their Drones from being spotted.

The problem is: The benefits of RCC obviously weren´t designed with that option in mind. It wasn´t supposed to be a thing. So if you allow "Hybrid Networks" with Decks and RCCs without any limitations, these will be a lot better and even cheaper than the supposed new standard of Deck+Cyberjack. The noise reduction alone is a huge kicker. Cyberjacks get a little more traction once you interpret their Initiative Bonus as Initiative Dice bonus, as it was originally intended.  But it´s still not enough.

If you want to allow it, but don´t want to screw up the Deck+Cyberjack setup to badly, here are some suggestions:

• Definitely Read the Initiative Bonus of Cyberjacks as "Initiative Dice " Bonus, along with the additional Minor Actions. Note: This also means that you will have to use the Stats in the Matrix Section and not the effed-up stats in the Augmentation section. And you will probably also increase the Minor Action limit to 6 to fit the 5 Initiative Dice Maximum... The ripple effects if bad editing 
• Another idea: A Cyberjack (or a Resonance Attribute) is not only needed for the specific Matrix Edge Actions, but for every Edge use on illegal Matrix Actions in general.
• Restrict the RCC noise reduction to remote control in the WAN, so that it can´t be used as a hacking aide.
• You have to choose if you want to use the RCC program slots or the Deck´s Program slots. Or you even have to use the lower number of the two.

Or you just wait a few years ´till either the Matrix or Rigger supplement comes out and shines further light on this issue 

[Xenon]

Cyberjacks get a little more traction once you interpret their Initiative Bonus as Initiative Dice bonus, as it was originally intended. 

I had the same thoughts as you, but getting bonus minor actions and access to matrix specific edge actions totally reshape the landscape and suddenly make it into an almost 'must have' implant for any serious decker.

While on the rigging side the control rig implant is a 'must have' for them (the RCC doesn't even come with a sim module of its own and the control rig is required if you ever wish to make the 'jump' anyway).

While you are allowed to combine both of them, this will be quite an investment both resource wise and essence wise.


Also, since it seems as if you don't really need a cyberdeck for a majority of all matrix actions anyway (that riggers may spoof a command to a vehicle slaved to someone's PAN without having an attack or sleaze attribute and while only having outsider access on the PAN).

And with a direct connection it seems as if you are allowed to take outsider actions (such as spoof command, which doesn't require a cyberdeck) on a device that is part of a nestled host as well (and that you perhaps may even get a wireless direct connection just by having enough physical proximity).

Restrict the RCC noise reduction to remote control in the WAN, so that it can´t be used as a hacking aide.
You have to choose if you want to use the RCC program slots or the Deck´s Program slots...

I like this.


As long as we are discussing house rules....

The book seem to assume that you are using one distinct device to 'access the matrix' with.

If this device is a cyberdeck then I think your cyberdeck should soak matrix damage and your network should get attack and sleaze attributes required for hacking and cybercombat - and that it is your cyberdeck that provide you with your program slots (but you don't get noise reduction or sending same command to several drones or any other advantage that RCCs provide). If you also have commlinks or a cyberjack etc in your network then you get to use them to complement the DF part of your ASDF array, but not for the AS part of your ASDF array.

If this device is a RCC then i think your RCC should soak matrix damage and that you get noise reduction. sending same command to several drones, higher slave limit and sharing autosofts with slaved drones etc - and that it is your RCC that provide you with your program slots (but you don't get attack or sleaze attributes required for hacking and cybercombat). If you also have commlinks or a cyberjack etc in your network then you get to use them to swap around whatever you use for your DF part of your ASDF array, but since you are not using a cyberdeck to 'access the matrix' with I don't think you should get the AS part of your ASDF array. Not even if you have one in your network. That to get the AS part of the ASDF array I think you should actually use a cyberdeck to 'access the matrix' with.

[Banshee]

Xenon is pretty spot on ... spiders do not need to operate under the same parameters as a decker or rigger since the host can function as their primary device and do anything a deck or RCC needs to do. Just slave the drones to the host and let the spider control them.

As for PC decker-rigger hybrids and how they interact... using g the CRB they don't very well and that is intentional... but I've already submitted and awaiting on approval to work on that for a supplement book

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Another note: there's no restriction to having only 1 spider.  A host might have 6 spiders in it, if the GM wants it to be VERY well patrolled.  So it's not a case of either/or when it comes to spiders and security riggers.

[Xenon]

Another note: there's no restriction to having only 1 spider....

True that! the previous edition even talked about a "...special kind of rigger, the security spider..." that "...slave their RCC to the building’s host and connect to the entire security system, including all of its slaved drones..." but also that the the "...spider-rigger is often teamed up with a spider-decker to help against hacking intrusions on the security system".

The 'Spider' (as in corporate hacker), using a cyberdeck, protecting the integrity of the host.
The 'Security Spider' (as in corporate rigger), using a RCC slaved to the host, protecting the physical facility.
Both working from inside the same host (= direct connection to all the slaved drones).