[tenchi2a]

I have not heard about mistake adepts yet in 6e. Given how the general consensus was they were broken in 5e I wonder how they over corrected to fix that in 6e.

Given their track record so far on "Fixing" issues with 5th in the new game i'm surprised they didn't just eliminated them like they did for armor.
They will probably go from broken to zero in this edition like everything else they thought was broken.
Lets see, we have tanks that can't tank, mages that do more damage to themselves then the enemy, etc.
Why not mystic adepts that can magic.

[Hobbes]

Be prepared for the 9 body 1 strength troll overlords.

As for ditching body as a soak pool is day it would feel inconsistent for things that armor does not effect like poison or disease.

Be more prepared for the Str 10, Body 2 Punch bots.  A Shadowrun team is going to look like a 40k Ogryn Squad.  Bunch of silly guns mostly for looks while charging, then get stuck in and shred stuff.

[adzling]

You should make your mind up for yourself.

the game now plays like a push your limit board game, substituting the edge mechanic for any connection to reality.

melee and firearms damage codes are divorced from reality.

armor has no relevance to survival.

beyond complexity almost none of 5e's issues are resolved.

it's like the designers got distracted by inserting a board game mechanic into a ttrpg.

i'm expecting catalyst to start selling "Edge tokens" to keep track of everything with the tabletop eventually looking like a boardgame without a board.

our table has decided to skip 6e and stick with a home-modified version of 5e.

sad the opportunity was missed and instead of taking the best bits out of 5e and making the game more approachable the designers decided to take us into boardgame land.

Adzling have you read the CRB? Everything you said lines up with what I've heard. But if you have read it, then I'm prepared to skip 6e and go try to determine which past version I plan to use for the foreseeable future.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Be prepared for the 9 body 1 strength troll overlords.

As for ditching body as a soak pool is day it would feel inconsistent for things that armor does not effect like poison or disease.

Be more prepared for the Str 10, Body 2 Punch bots.  A Shadowrun team is going to look like a 40k Ogryn Squad.  Bunch of silly guns mostly for looks while charging, then get stuck in and shred stuff.

I guess it depends on how the damage for unarmed is calculated. 1/2 str would put 10 str at single shot assault rifle damage. I’d rather be a tank and just shoot you. If it’s full strength. Yeah I can see some strength builds happening as a trolls fist will out damage assault cannons. But having to use a minor to move and only getting one move action a turn is pretty limiting for melee.

[Michael Chandra]

Eh, given how the alternative is 'everyone gets massive armor and then nobody fears an army of weak gangers', I'd say this new mechanic is more real Shadowrun.

I don't think anyone would argue that the soak potential in 5e was extreme enough to be unbalanced, but wearing a decent ballistic vest, getting shot with a medium power pistol, and it doing nothing to protect you from the wound is lolsy at best. There is certainly room for a balanced medium.

Eh, there's a sample character with 36 soak dice in 5e. Even a decent augmented character already hit 25+. If you augment Strength and use cyberware, that 36 was quite doable too.

Bearing in mind I have not seen anything more than the QSR, I have a theory that a mystic adept troll with max body, increase body, armor spell, and mystic armor adept power will be the new tank. Maybe even drop that essence some for soak ware if the goal is maximum soak. We'll see if the final mechanics prove me right or wrong.

Honestly I suspect that <X> from QSR is a big mistake, given how it contradicts what they said about their intent with <Y>, so I don't expect <X> to be part of the real rules. (Spoilers due to NDA.)

[kyoto kid]

the game now plays like a push your limit board game, substituting the edge mechanic for any connection to reality.

melee and firearms damage codes are divorced from reality.

armor has no relevance to survival.

beyond complexity almost none of 5e's issues are resolved.

it's like the designers got distracted by inserting a board game mechanic into a ttrpg.

i'm expecting catalyst to start selling "Edge tokens" to keep track of everything with the tabletop eventually looking like a boardgame without a board.

our table has decided to skip 6e and stick with a home-modified version of 5e.

sad the opportunity was missed and instead of taking the best bits out of 5e and making the game more approachable the designers decided to take us into boardgame land.

...+1

[kyoto kid]

My take-away from watching the podcasts is watching the players and GM make mistakes and learning from them before I finally get to play.  (Wow, better make sure someone on the team takes the Biotech skill.  Wow, better remember to save actions to dodge or take cover. Wow, when I'm designing an encounter, remember to forget 5e...)

Every edition of Shadowrun has incentivized having first aid skills on the team and taking cover when under fire. Why are you talking about this like it's some kind of paradigm shift?

...crikey even my 5E Decker Violet has First Aid skill (heck with an 8 Logic, two rating points in First Aid, plus a rating 6 medkit, that' a pool of 16).

[kyoto kid]

I'm talking about it because they didn't do any of that in the Actual Play.  And I think the beatings the characters took have more to do with those things than the change of armor not contributing to soak pools.

So what you're telling me is that between the players and what was written on the character sheets, the demo crew were the exact sort of runners that naturally get themselves killed on their first run on account of their own incompetence/inexperience. Not exactly reassuring.

Well, when you've been conditioned a ruleset where 20 to 30 soak dice renders you immune to gangers and devil rats, it stands to reason that your instincts have to be unlearned even if you intellectually know you don't HAVE a soak pool of 20 to 30 dice any longer. It's a failure, sure, but a very understandable one if you forget to focus on taking cover the first time you face opposition you could wade through unharmed in 5e.

...however, what if they had the same rule in 5E where Grunts and Critters could attack as a group (like drones in a swarm)?  That would change the dynamic.  Suddenly those SMGs or bite/claw attacks begin to make a character go "ow."  Taking stun damage can still be just as effective as lethal damage as once a character is down for the count, they are no longer a factor in the combat.  When down, there is also no defence roll against additional attacks against them.

[kyoto kid]

I'm talking about it because they didn't do any of that in the Actual Play.  And I think the beatings the characters took have more to do with those things than the change of armor not contributing to soak pools.

So what you're telling me is that between the players and what was written on the character sheets, the demo crew were the exact sort of runners that naturally get themselves killed on their first run on account of their own incompetence/inexperience. Not exactly reassuring.

For some reason all Pre-gens for all games are mechanically bad, at best.  Catalyst pre-gens, unfortunately, are historically and hysterically bad.  I suspect strongly it's a mix of Player/GM inexperience and mechanically weak characters that contribute to the hilarity on the Actual Plays.

...in our Missions group one of our core GMs rewrote some of the core rule pregens and created several more that actually could survive and do something so new players weren't stuck with playing "bullet catchers".

[Michael Chandra]

I don't think anyone would argue that the soak potential in 5e was extreme enough to be unbalanced, but wearing a decent ballistic vest, getting shot with a medium power pistol, and it doing nothing to protect you from the wound is lolsy at best. There is certainly room for a balanced medium.

Incidentally, the fun part is that from the sound of how they handle burst attacks and mook-groups, you'll take LESS hits from a group of enemies than before, yet people insist it will be more deadly. In SR5, I could face 5 gangers with SMGs, they would burst-fire and I'd face a -2, -3, -4, -5, -6 against their attacks. In SR6, if all five combine in a single swarm, they get what, a single +2 and a better chance at scoring Edge? And the base DV is far less so even if they catch me with just an armored vest, I won't get butchered in a single round? I'll take that any day.

Don't even get me started on APDS-loaded Ares Alphas when you're a normal runner wearing an Armor Jacket: I'd take 4P+ average per hit in SR5, I think? So if they were to use a Simple-Action FA Burst, chances are I'd get hit at least 3x and go down unless I used Full Defense and a point or two of Edge. A single mook-attack of what, 5P? Will do 3P+ average, and I won't face 5 attacks in 1 turn.

[Lormyr]

Eh, there's a sample character with 36 soak dice in 5e. Even a decent augmented character already hit 25+. If you augment Strength and use cyberware, that 36 was quite doable too.

Sure, so that's one archetype out of seven. I would say the average soak pool is closer to 21 (5 body and sleeping tiger/coat). Average PR 1 ganger will average 2 damage per hit.

Honestly I suspect that <X> from QSR is a big mistake, given how it contradicts what they said about their intent with <Y>, so I don't expect <X> to be part of the real rules. (Spoilers due to NDA.)

We'll just have to see. It makes sense as written, and I suspect (hope?) it is the magic answer to ware for the same thing.

Incidentally, the fun part is that from the sound of how they handle burst attacks and mook-groups, you'll take LESS hits from a group of enemies than before, yet people insist it will be more deadly. In SR5, I could face 5 gangers with SMGs, they would burst-fire and I'd face a -2, -3, -4, -5, -6 against their attacks. In SR6, if all five combine in a single swarm, they get what, a single +2 and a better chance at scoring Edge? And the base DV is far less so even if they catch me with just an armored vest, I won't get butchered in a single round? I'll take that any day.

For fairly average runners vs. fairly average mooks, I agree. In 5e, that would not be true for defense specialized PCs. Not enough info to judge how a defense specialized PC would fair in the same situation in 6th. I don't really have an issue with the mook gang up though.

And yes, APDS ares alphas will ruin an average runner. I do not have a broad play experience with how people across the country build characters, but in Columbus Missions, we don't have many "average" runners.

[Michael Chandra]

Street sams will easily reach 6 or 9 more soak depending on bioware vs cyberware, with armor and soak ware.

As for <X>, Edit: You make a good point, but there's another spell you can use to boost one's soak rolls. And I mostly hope we prevent a massive overkill, since it risks the damage numbers getting just as skewy as in SR5: What can kill one person may only tickle another.

As for defense-aimed PCs, I am so going to focus on defensive actions and a high reaction + intuition... Psyche boosts Intuition, right? Guess I need to add yet another drug for my combat monster.

Edit: Mind you, having a houserule with AV/X in autohits on soak might work for some tables. But we'll have to wait for the edition to come out and see how dangerous the fights feel before we can provide any substantial feedback on those.

[Marcus]

I have always encouraged soak a little Over 20 in 5e. Yes you can get much bigger pools but doing so now also means the GM has to do crazy things like adps loaded alpha to be a threat. Which not good for anyone.

Now I can’t say what the national average is, my data pool just isn’t big enough. But I didn’t regularly Encounter pools above 20 in con play
In my area. But I also don’t recall a combat that involved an adps loaded alpha. I think there was a fight with adps, and one with an alpha.

I’m fine with a some level of a break between simulationism and mechanics. But armor should do something to soak damage. At the point armor truly becomes more relavent as fashion then to soak the simulationist  break is just too high.

It’s also worth noting that catalyst has a habit of over reaction. TM bring the prefect example, and Banshee still argued it wasn’t an overreaction even after they fixed it.

That’s a sure sign of a serious disconnect between the designers and the community.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Marcus I'm not responding specifically to you per se, I'm just quoting you because you're the most recent person who said something along the lines of "armor does NOTHING in 6e":

... But armor should do something to soak damage. At the point armor truly becomes more relavent as fashion then to soak the simulationist  break is just too high...

I know opinions have by now solidified among the prolific posters, so I'm in truth addressing anyone who might be reading the thread looking for info about SR6 at this point... I don't want hyperbolic statements about armor "doing nothing" to be taken as being correct.

Yes, armor doesn't contribute to soak pools.  No, that's not the same thing as armor doing nothing at all.  Nor MUST armor help soak damage in order to reasonably represent a defensive benefit from wearing armor.  As cited a couple times upthread, armor doesn't do anything to soak damage in d20 RPG systems, either (barring of course, the "armor as DR" optional rules available in certain systems).  In this example, armor instead makes you harder to be successfully attacked and therefore indirectly "soaks" damage by preventing it in the first place.

Armor in SR6 won't contribute to soak pools. Yes it's a big change and naturally there are people who don't like that particular big change. It's ok to not like it.  But armor in SR6 DOES still help in the form of giving tactical advantage, or at least denying it to your opponent.  That tactical advantage (i.e. Edge in SR6) in turn helps you in whatever way you want it to. Sure, maybe on the dodge test.  Maybe on the soak test. Or maybe you pocket it and use it later.

So please as a public service to those who haven't obsessed over SR6 as much as some of us vocal participants, do please stop saying Armor does nothing. If you don't like the change, please be accurate in your criticism and complain that you feel the benefit it does give is too abstract.  Or not strong enough.  Or unreasonably fungible. Or whatever.  At the very least, if you have a hope that CGL will listen to your feedback and act upon it, you'll have to at least be accurate in your critiques.

[adzling]

per the demo play rerolling one die for having armor far superior to the attacking weapon is effectively so small as to be no benefit.

nothing else regarding the effects of armor has been publicly shown afaik.

rerolling one die when you wearing an armor jacket, helmet etc against a pistol is weak sauce indeed.

some would say it's functionally irrelevant.