[Bradd]

SR4A, p. 68 states that a "specialization grants the character a dice pool modifier of +2 dice on tests using that skill when the particular specialty applies." SR4A, p. 121 states that they "add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill when the specialization is applicable." Those definitions have different implications for splitting dice pools. Dice pool modifiers apply after the split, but dice added to tests apply before (according to the FAQ).

Related to this, the FAQ says that foci add dice to tests and therefore apply before splitting a dice pool. While that's true for most foci, weapon foci "grant the character a dice pool modifier to melee attacks" (SR4A, p. 199).

[voydangel]

Very nice observation, I've wondered this for some time myself since there is a very real distinction between adding to a skill and modifying a dice pool - especially when splitting pools. I would love to see a ruling on this.

[FastJack]

A little further down the FAQ:

How do you split a dice pool, such as using multiple weapons or casting multiple spells?

A dice pool is generally Skill (+ Specialization) + Attribute + anything else that adds directly to the dice pool but is not listed as a dice pool modifier (foci, certain augmentations, etc.). When splitting the pool the player divides these dice however they want, keeping at least one die for each test. Dice pool modifiers (from certain augmentations, darkness, smoke, etc.) are then applied to each test separately.

[FoxBoy]

I'm trying to remember what the RAW says about doing two dissimilar actions.. i.e. shoot and spellcast in the same action, but I think I need a reminder. Splitting dicepools is easy for casting two spells at once. It's when we're talking about two different dice pools.

Edit: Example, casting a combat and an illusion spell. Trickster mentor gives +2 to illusions, not to combat. Different base pool sizes. (like 12 for combat and 14 for illusion)

[voydangel]

When dealing with 2 different dice pools, you count the smaller of the 2 dice pools and split it and go from there iirc.

As far as the FAQ ruling on specializations, that's what I've been going with, but since some people argue that the FAQ is worthless, it would be nice to see some errata on the subject since the RAW does technically contradict itself...

[FastJack]

If two separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the smallest dice pool.

[Bradd]

@FastJack: The trouble with that FAQ is that specializations and weapon foci are listed as dice pool modifiers. It's at least half wrong in each case.

[Medicineman]

A little further down the FAQ:

How do you split a dice pool, such as using multiple weapons or casting multiple spells?

A dice pool is generally Skill (+ Specialization) + Attribute + anything else that adds directly to the dice pool but is not listed as a dice pool modifier (foci, certain augmentations, etc.). .....

Which Means that the FAQ is simply Wrong!
Isn't the first Time,Is it ?

Hough!
Medicineman

[FastJack]

Okay, the OP is asking about clarification on whether Specialization is added before or after the dice pool splits. The FAQ demonstrates that it's before the dice pool splits. Bradd asked because the book wasn't clear on whether Specialization was a dice pool modifier or not. The FAQ clarifies that it isn't a modifier in the terms for splitting dice pools.

How is that wrong?

[FastJack]

Looking at Dice Pool Modifiers in the SR4A (p. 60-61), I think I know where some of the confusion is coming in.

The fact is, dice pool modifier is tossed around a lot in generic terms in the book, when they should be saying situational modifiers.

Dice Pool Modifiers
     The Shadowrun rules often call for a plus or minus dice modifier to a test. These modifiers can result from injuries and situational factors that affect what the character is trying to do. The modifier affects the number of dice used in the dice pool. If more than one dice modifier applies, they are added together and applied to the dice pool.
     Note that threshold modifiers (p. 63) do not affect the dice pool. Unless otherwise stated, any modifier mentioned is considered to be a dice pool modifier as noted above.
     Optionally, gamemasters may choose to cap dice pools (including modifiers) at 20 dice, or at twice the sum of the character’s natural Attribute + Skill ratings, whichever is higher.

So, it's the Square = Rectangle argument. All situational modifiers are dice pool modifiers, but not all dice pool modifiers are situational modifiers.

[FoxBoy]

Mathmatically, I don't think it matters when the modifier is applied UNLESS you try to give less dice to an action then it would have normally.

Case in point, spellcasting pool of 6 and a combat spell focus of 4.
6+ 4 = 10, split two ways is 5. That's fine. But the combat spell must at /least/ have 4 dice in it. Otherwise your giving some of those spell focus dice to the manipulation, which doesn't work. Two combat spells though, it can be split in any way. 9 in one, 1 in the other... because all four points of the combat spell focus is going into a combat spell it's legal.

[voydangel]

Mathmatically, I don't think it matters when the modifier is applied UNLESS you try to give less dice to an action then it would have normally.

Case in point, spellcasting pool of 6 and a combat spell focus of 4.
6+ 4 = 10, split two ways is 5. That's fine. But the combat spell must at /least/ have 4 dice in it. Otherwise your giving some of those spell focus dice to the manipulation, which doesn't work. Two combat spells though, it can be split in any way. 9 in one, 1 in the other... because all four points of the combat spell focus is going into a combat spell it's legal.

And that is why I think base pool should just be the Attribute + Skill. Everything else should modify the dice pool after you split it (assuming you split it of course). It would make a lot more actions a lot easier yes, but that works for a cinematic style game. Plus there would be a whole heck of a lot less confusion. But I suppose if you were going for 'gritty' in your game it wouldn't be as desirable.

[Bradd]

Okay, the OP is asking about clarification on whether Specialization is added before or after the dice pool splits. The FAQ demonstrates that it's before the dice pool splits. Bradd asked because the book wasn't clear on whether Specialization was a dice pool modifier or not. The FAQ clarifies that it isn't a modifier in the terms for splitting dice pools.

How is that wrong?

The FAQ is not very helpful because its examples of "anything else that adds directly to the dice pool but is not listed as a dice pool modifier" includes two things that are listed as a dice pool modifier. Should we infer that weapon foci are added pre-split, even though the example contradicts the rulebook? Or should we presume that the FAQ writer simply overlooked the fact that weapon foci are different?

The same goes for specialization. Do we infer that the writer meant to clarify the rule for specialization, or did he simply overlook the rule on SR4A p. 68? (Or does it add pre-split despite being a dice pool modifier?) Since the FAQ doesn't directly address the issue of whether it's a dice pool modifier, it's impossible to say which is true.

As for situational modifiers: That's a good point, but there's still the trouble of saying what's "situational." Is a weapon focus situational? I could argue that either way.

[Chaemera]

If you assume that a specific rule trumps a general rule, then we come to the following conclusions:

Specializations add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill. . .

This is a general statement of intent, "you get two dice added to your die pool".

A specialization grants the character a dice pool modifier of +2 dice on tests using that skill when the particular specialty applies.

This is the specific rule on how to implement the intent stated on page 121.

Therefore, if you apply "specific trumps general" logic (and if you don't, every RPG I've looked at falls apart), a specialization is a die pool modifier.

Furthermore, to clarify what FastJack was getting into,

The Shadowrun rules often call for a plus or minus dice modifier to a test. These modifiers can result from injuries and situational factors that affect what a character is trying to do.

Note the section header, Dice Pool Modifiers. This section defines dice pool modifiers and gives you two choices:
(a) Injury dice pool modifiers
(b) Situational dice pool modifiers.

Further along:

Unless otherwise stated, any modifier mentioned is considered to be a dice pool modifier.

So anything that is not part of the basic dice pool is a dice pool modifier.

In fact, we've got another clear statement of intent:

When a player makes a test, she rolls a number of dice equal to her dice pool. This dice pool is the sum of the relevant skill plus its linked attribute, plus or minus any modifiers that may apply.

As previously stated, all modifiers are dice pool modifiers unless explicitly stated otherwise. Further, a dice pool consists of exactly three things, skill, attribute and modifiers. Therefore, at any point, whatsoever, in which the book says "this adds dice to your dice pool", per the aforementioned quotes, it is always a dice pool modifier. Therefore, when splitting your die pool, per the RAW, you take skill + attribute, divide as you desire, then add anything else relavent to the test.

I see absolutely no other interpretation available, barring errata. Specializations and Weapon Foci (and EVERYTHING ELSE) are all dice pool modifiers, added after you split.

[voydangel]

If you assume that a specific rule trumps a general rule, then we come to the following conclusions:

Specializations add 2 dice to any tests made for that skill. . .

This is a general statement of intent, "you get two dice added to your die pool".

A specialization grants the character a dice pool modifier of +2 dice on tests using that skill when the particular specialty applies.

This is the specific rule on how to implement the intent stated on page 121.

Therefore, if you apply "specific trumps general" logic (and if you don't, every RPG I've looked at falls apart), a specialization is a die pool modifier.

Furthermore, to clarify what FastJack was getting into,

The Shadowrun rules often call for a plus or minus dice modifier to a test. These modifiers can result from injuries and situational factors that affect what a character is trying to do.

Note the section header, Dice Pool Modifiers. This section defines dice pool modifiers and gives you two choices:
(a) Injury dice pool modifiers
(b) Situational dice pool modifiers.

Further along:

Unless otherwise stated, any modifier mentioned is considered to be a dice pool modifier.

So anything that is not part of the basic dice pool is a dice pool modifier.

In fact, we've got another clear statement of intent:

When a player makes a test, she rolls a number of dice equal to her dice pool. This dice pool is the sum of the relevant skill plus its linked attribute, plus or minus any modifiers that may apply.

As previously stated, all modifiers are dice pool modifiers unless explicitly stated otherwise. Further, a dice pool consists of exactly three things, skill, attribute and modifiers. Therefore, at any point, whatsoever, in which the book says "this adds dice to your dice pool", per the aforementioned quotes, it is always a dice pool modifier. Therefore, when splitting your die pool, per the RAW, you take skill + attribute, divide as you desire, then add anything else relavent to the test.

I see absolutely no other interpretation available, barring errata. Specializations and Weapon Foci (and EVERYTHING ELSE) are all dice pool modifiers, added after you split.

Thats kinda how I've always wanted to handle dice pools and modifiers, but could never find in the RAW exactly where it said this, despite the feeling that this was what was intended. Obviously we can't assume that this is the RAI, as you said barring errata there's really just no way to be 100% sure, but when it's lined out like that, it's pretty hard to argue with. Thank you, and +1 street cred.