[Stormdrake]

Have been playing with the thought that Great Dragons may not be the end of a dragon’s life cycle.  As dragons have been shown to operate independently of their bodies and that they undergo transformations from adult to great, at least in part on the astral plane.  Could not a further transformation take them from an existence anchored on earth to one of primarily existing in the metaplanes?  Such a dragon could still return to Earth when the mana level was sufficient and conceal its exalted state through Masking.
 
This would also elevate the issues of Earth being able to support such massive predators that live for eons and are continuing to propagate.  As beings of the metaplanes these ancient dragons would subsist off of mana rather than meat and would allow adult and great dragons to use the limited prey resources available.  This would also fit into the existing game world as these ancients could easily conceal their true nature so that existing cannon great dragons could in fact be upgraded to ancient status without a recon of cannon history.

Just a thought

[Inpu]

One could technically argue that Dunkelzahn did something of the sort. It's questionable if it made him more powerful, though.

[Irian]

I don't see any reason why this should be a good idea. *shrug* Astral dragon ancients? What for? Great dragon are already described ridiculously overpowered.

[Inpu]

Well, with Horros and Passions involved it isn't a terrible idea. I've wondered if they had different stages as well. I'm sure some of them believe it. In fact, I seem to remember reading that Lung was of that opinion.

Either way, it isn't something players would deal with on a regular basis.

[raggedhalo]

Simple question: what would this add to the game?

[Inpu]

Dragon paid runs to acquire objects of great value to potentially obtain this higher state. And sabotaging the same for others.

The usual, basically. Any time a motive is known or clarified, it always makes life easier on a GM.

[Irian]

Isn't "Dragon want to aquire objects of great value" a motive in itself? :-)

[Inpu]

To some degree. We have, however, seen that the Great Dragons are forced to consider many more factors due to their opposition being roughly equal in power and potential. An object of great value would be a step in a larger scheme: not only because dragons plot myriad schemes, but because they often have to.

At least, that is my take. While a dragon may indulge, they often have to participate in draconian politics. Even those who would prefer to leave such things behind them are dragged back in.

[The_Gun_Nut]

It's said that great dragons throw away more plots before breakfast than most people consider all day.  They live for millenia and have equally powerful rivals surrounding them, waiting to stymie their efforts.  Not to mention all the regular old mundane folk who happen to be really good at what they do throwing monkey wrenches into their plans.

This forces them to become grand masters at Zanatos Speed Chess.

[Texas_Tarantula]

Also, you really don't need dragons to be more evolved. Great Dragons are scary enough as it is.

Those things have EDGE, man! Brrrrr.

[Inpu]

I'm sure the Great Dragons disagree when they meet Horrors.

[Frostriese]

Err, actually, that is exactly what Ryumo or whatever the Japanese dragon is called has tried to do. He tried to syphon off mana energy from the Ring of Fire, to accumlate enough to transform into a post-Great Dragon state. he failed, and that is why Japan was so especially hard hit in 2062, but in any case if it necessites accumulation of so much mana, then it cannot be natural. Hence we can assume there is no natural state beyond Great Dragon state.

[bobo69]

There probably is....

There is probably the strongest of the Great Dragons.

Lung himself was ancient during the time of Earthdawn...(Luung, Cathay novels by Red Brick).

And yep, while Dragons are arrogant, they give horrors a wide berth.

[Inpu]

I think that depends on whether or not it needs a catalyst and if Ryumyo was just being incredibly impatient. I seem to remember Luung was trying this as well, but in a more controlled manner. Typical for these two, really.

What I find funny is that in success lies defeat: such an accumulation would likely create a mana spike. Horrors have an easier time entering. Mind, the Big D has a means of countering mana spikes these days, but it is still interesting. One could make the argument that Great Dragons can become Passions.

[Frostriese]

No, Lung just wants to stabilise the Dragon Lines. As far as we know from Shadowrun I think he has no self-improvement aims in it. Doesnt mean hes entirely altruistic of course, but he doesnt want to take new career options cocooning himself and becoming a butterfly

And IMO it doesnt matter if Ryumyo is incompetent or not. If it necessitates additional mana it cant be a natural thing. And if Lung is in fact so ancient he shouldve reached this state beyond Great Dragon state by now, if it were natural that is.