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On the nature of Resonace

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Lansdren

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« Reply #15 on: <11-05-10/0459:33> »
In some respects you could see the matrix as just a physical medium to access a very specialised metaplane (with the assumption that the metaplanes are effectivly infinate and include realms such as the plane of fire and the plane of death).

Its a technological scrying ball with technomancers as the new mages
"Didnt anyone tell you as security school to geek the mage first?"  "I guess I will just have to educate you with a introduction to my boomstick"

Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #16 on: <11-05-10/0546:08> »
The only flaw with that logic is that, if true, Mages could influence Sprites in drones in the same ways they can influence possessing spirits. Even if both sides use the same "energy" and a lot of the same physics, they're not of a kind.

Aeon

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« Reply #17 on: <11-05-10/0621:52> »
Perhaps the Otaku and Technomancers are the result of UGE or something similar. Spike Babies and UGE only started occuring once the mana level started to get high enough. Same with a lot of the critters in the SR world - there wasn't any sign of a metamorphisis or period of change, they just turned up. Due, of course, to the resurgence of once dormant genes, and higher levels of ambient mana. I don't know that much about evolution, but creatures tend to evolve to become more effective at what they do best in order to survive. Could the matrix, and the technologically advanced aspects of the virtual world of Shadowrun, have provided an enviroment for which the mana spike could have acted as a catalyst, in order to 'evolve' metahumanity along the most appropriate path?

Of course, it could just be that a dragon is involved, in which case, all bets are off.

Lansdren

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« Reply #18 on: <11-05-10/0701:26> »
The only flaw with that logic is that, if true, Mages could influence Sprites in drones in the same ways they can influence possessing spirits. Even if both sides use the same "energy" and a lot of the same physics, they're not of a kind.

And in previous editions a hermetic couldnt do much with a spirit not from his tradition what he could summon and what his shaman friend could summon was comleatly different. Who says at some point a sprite might get the ability to project out of a matrix enviroment.

If the matrix is a digital to the astral a sprite is a spirit who cant materialise or project but can inhabit in some instances (machine sprite in a drone for example)

Who knows what the future may hold and the shadowrun world is one of twists turns and total mindfucks of one form or another.
"Didnt anyone tell you as security school to geek the mage first?"  "I guess I will just have to educate you with a introduction to my boomstick"

Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #19 on: <11-05-10/0708:30> »
There was a comment in somewhere (the book where Netcat outs herself) that Technomancer-ness seemed to be a genetic trait. Seems odd that anyone would know it runs in families with the phenomenon still being in its early stages and I'm pretty sure they hadn't isolated a particular gene. Then again, isn't Mage-ness similar?

I think in the case of Technos, its not so much a matter of the ambient mana reaching a certain level. That may be part of it. The emergence of AI and the implications of of wireless communication between machines creating an invisible web of "technosphere" for lack of a better term both seem to be major factors, too. With the AI's came the Otaku but it seems like they were somewhere shy of being true Matrix mages and they were a bit unstable in several senses of the word. When the world went from wired to wireless, though, the complexity of the virtual realm seems to have reached a point where it became comparable to the astral.

@lansdren - No one knows. I'm speculating based on the available information and game mechanics. This isn't a right answer in any sense. Its more me thinking out loud about what the truth would be in a game I ran. I expect it will never be completely spelled out in a sourcebook. Its one of those big secrets that's too much fun to give just one answer to.

FastJack

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« Reply #20 on: <11-05-10/0911:04> »
I don't think Netcat meant that she knew of Technomancers that had inherited their gift from the parents, but that they were able to find the genetic marker that identifies them as a technomancer (much like the "magic" chromosome).

Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #21 on: <11-06-10/0553:14> »
It wasn't her who said it, it was in one of those scientific studies. I just remember the book, which I think was Emergence, by the fact that she admits to being a techno about halfway through the running commentary.

FastJack

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« Reply #22 on: <11-06-10/1459:36> »
It wasn't her who said it, it was in one of those scientific studies. I just remember the book, which I think was Emergence, by the fact that she admits to being a techno about halfway through the running commentary.
Ah yes... Sorry 'bout that. It was in an article in Emergence on page 29-32 on Patient V (aka Victor Markwart) uploaded by Sunshine on 4/16/70. And it detailed that there were genetic alterations throughout the subject's central nervous system, but not whether or not "virtua-kinetics" or technomancy is hereditary/genetic.

But, we may find out in upcoming sourcebooks after Netcat has her baby... ;)

Juxtamon

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« Reply #23 on: <11-06-10/1557:09> »
Aweschome!

Cheers to Sichr, btw, who's put me onto other stuff to read in the next little bit.
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Gideon

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« Reply #24 on: <11-19-10/1636:43> »
So on reading Renraku Shutdowm and the usage of Deus and the arcology (novus caern)  after some thought, the matrix may have become coopted for a dragon thought experiment.

...What if the matrix has become a simulation of the material and astral worlds.The puppet masters encouraged the addition of AI and Otaku.  The goal: Simulate the rise of Mana and the return of metaplaner threats.  So far metahumanity has won its encounters.  This bodes well if the simulation has not been tampered with.

Or it has a deep meaning about metahumanity... sigh...I will always prefer the being used aproach..

YMMV

Bryan121

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« Reply #25 on: <12-15-10/1247:53> »
Quote
what if Nicola Tesla was a technomancer?... and did you ever hear about his weapon experiments?

Yes very interesting...and very scary.  He was definitely ahead of his time.

Fizzygoo

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« Reply #26 on: <12-15-10/2140:55> »
First: In reading this thread...total geekgasm! Loving it.

Second (my emphasis):
Well, obviously I'm way out on the speculation limb here but just because the Matrix is man made does not mean the Resonance is. We need a telescope to see the moons of Jupiter, but they exist anyway. Perhaps the Resonance, like the Astral, is always there. In both cases, metahumans had to develop a technology to interface with it. Magic is an internal technology but make no mistake, it is a technology. The same steps produce the same results. You don't have to have a deep understanding of the underlying principles of Magic to use it any more than you do a commlink. The Astral may be based on life and the Resonance on information. Neither one requires a human to exist. In theory there could be many other systems that achieve the same results that we don't understand. Essentially, when the Matrix became sufficiently complex it became more than the sum of the networked computers in it, it became a link to the realms of Information.

Spoken like a true hermetic, Nomad ;) A shaman may argue, "Magic, and the astral planes from which it flows, is the life, love, hate, fear, serenity, and above all the emotional awe that weaves between us and the Great Mother. It is no more a tool than your first born child. If you choose you can enslave it, force upon it your will to do as you wish, and constrain its growth. But is it not better to nurture and flow with your offspring as she grows into maturity. Such is magic, the child of Gaia, embrace it with your love and care and it will reward you with sacred insight into yourself and your position within the greater whole."

But hermetics do need to argue and debate...

So Resonance is born from the Matrix, which is the storage place of knowledge, its distribution "plane," as well as linking all the bytes of knowledge together in a web of relationships and allowing consciousness to manipulate it. Then I would argue that the seeds of Resonance were born on the first painted cave walls by pre-neolithic sapiens. Language was the first major step (if it didn't preceed cave paintings, which it probably did, so it's the first seed). It allowed for the transmission of ideas, of knowledge, from beyond one's own generation to the next. The written word was the next step, it stored knowledge, allowed it to be distributed, but most importantly allowed it to exist, allowed accumulated knowledge, to exist beyond not just the generation that heard the spoken word version, but kept the thoughts original to the source, to the writer, as well as allowing expansion of that knowledge beyond one's social/language group. Then audio recordings, then film, then into the digital age.

Jungian? Oh yes Jungian! As far back as 1st edition Grimoire, Free Spirits were given "motivations" which were titled: Tricksters, Shadows, Guardians, Animus/Anima, and Players. And evolving out of Jungian (and other ideas), an editor of Jung's Eranos, Joseph Campbell... "To the Joseph Campbell Mythology Society I leave 500,000 nuyen to continue keeping the work and dreams of Professor Campbell alive." (PoaD: DS, pg 32). I would argue that one of the most influential thinkers to the Shadowrun cannon is Joseph Campbell. Campbell's comparative mythology is the foundation of Shadowrun magic traditions.

To the one who posted that Assensing can detect Technomancer (sorry, the topic summary doesn't go that far back to quote correctly): With 5+ hits on an Assensing test (SR4A pg 191) you can tell if the subject is a technomancer. But you can also detect if they're awakened (only 1 hit) and if they have cyberware implates (2+ hits). Without some canon flavor text (that I could be missing, of course) then one could argue (or a GM could rule) that assensing technomancer ability simply reveals that the mundane aura is "wrong" in the same way that cyberware makes the aura "wrong." The Assenser (Assensor?) isn't detecting magic-in-the-form-of-technomancery, only detecting the subtle (5 hits!) but weird nature of the subject's aura. ...but again, there maybe something I'm missing on this point.

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Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #27 on: <12-16-10/0009:57> »

Spoken like a true hermetic, Nomad ;)

But meant more from a rules perspective. Arcana is the science of mana, so to speak, effort to understand the underlying principles of magic. The application of mana as a tool to solve problems is either spellcasting or conjuring. Technology in its most literal sense doesn't require knowledge of why something works, only that "if you do x you get result y". Shamans and hermetics disagree on the why but they both have procedure x for effect y within their tradition. There may be more than one x that solves for y in the same way that you can travel somewhere by horse or motor scooter and arrive in roughly the same amount of time.

Quote from: Wikipedia
Technology is the usage and knowledge of tools, techniques, crafts, systems or methods of organization

Edit: And the difference between language, communication and the Matrix is that the former two didn't turn the data into semi-autonomous, interactive constructs (spirits). A cave painting is always the same, that's its point. Humans may interperet it differently but it doesn't change (wear and tear aside). The beings of spirit and resonance both have meaning but how they present that meaning is fluid. In the case of mana, its just sort of how the world is. In the case of Resonance, it seems to be that metahumanity built a system complex enough that it began behaving as a sort of manasphere on its own (or with the help of Deus). So while mana has roots in all living things, Resonance is specifically related to humanity and its creations, or was until dolphins came along and messed it up for everyone.
« Last Edit: <12-16-10/0016:54> by Nomad Zophiel »

Fizzygoo

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« Reply #28 on: <12-16-10/2218:00> »
But meant more from a rules perspective.

Of course. :) Your previous post just screamed "hermetic tradition" so I thought I try to come at it from a shamanic point of view.

Arcana is the science of mana, so to speak, effort to understand the underlying principles of magic.

Arcana the skill, yes? (SR4A pg 122). I have a heavy science background and I would totally agree with you, especially from a rules perspective...but the approach of the shamanic tradition is renowned for annoying, flustering, and just generally disagreeing with the hermetic. So what would a shaman say about the Arcana skill?  "Arcana governs the practical applications of a tradition's magical theory and the tapping of arcane potency dormant in various materials." That intro sentence to the Arcana skill is written with a hermetic bias. No where in the Shamanic Tradition description (SR4A pg 181) does it mention the word theory (which I'm assuming, in the case of the use of the word in the Arcana skill is closer in tune with the scientific definition of theory than the popular definition). The Shamanic tradition is the opposite of the scientific method as it draws from the emotions and whims of not only the Shaman but the totem that he or she follows in order to create magical effects.

A hermetic would use the Arcana skill in a scientific way, if x then y. But a shaman would use it as a way to divine the best path, to listen to the spirits "better," to feel through the ebb and flow of mana at that moment, in that location, with current emotions and feelings...of which can change with every step. From a shamanic perspective an x then y outlook is just silly, stifling to one's ability to listen to what one's totem and spirits are saying in the moment. Under "Example Traditions" SR4A pg 180, "Shamanic magicians focus their magic through their relationship with the world of nature and the power of emotion and inspiration. To them, the world is a swirl of natural energies, most of which have personalities of their own." By the rules, a shaman who knows Lightning Bolt can cast it anytime they want, just like a hermetic. But where a hermetic knows an actual "formula" for that spell, the right words, pitch, cadence, gestures, etc., a shaman could call on the aid of his or her totem for one casting, chant for another, and cry for another. It's never the same. Testing and retesting how the shaman manipulates magic, even for the same spell, will give a different result (for how they manipulated the magic, not the outcome) each time. To a hermetic, or a scientist, it doesn't make sense...and it's not supposed to.

Technology in its most literal sense doesn't require knowledge of why something works, only that "if you do x you get result y".

That's one of the best, most concise, examples of the difference between technology and science that I've seen in a long time :) But a shaman would still balk at calling the use of magic a technology, and would probably site that something like, "it is a relationship with Nature, with all Life, and magic is no more a tool for me to use than I a tool for it."

Edit: And the difference between language, communication and the Matrix is that the former two didn't turn the data into semi-autonomous, interactive constructs (spirits). A cave painting is always the same, that's its point. Humans may interperet it differently but it doesn't change (wear and tear aside). The beings of spirit and resonance both have meaning but how they present that meaning is fluid. In the case of mana, its just sort of how the world is. In the case of Resonance, it seems to be that metahumanity built a system complex enough that it began behaving as a sort of manasphere on its own (or with the help of Deus). So while mana has roots in all living things, Resonance is specifically related to humanity and its creations, or was until dolphins came along and messed it up for everyone.

I agree. The only thing that I would further comment on is that language was the start (of a very long journey) in turning data into semi-autonomous, interactive constructs. The Matrix, and then Resonance, is an exponentially huge leap from the emergence of language...language is the underlying mana-field. Language was the first major way in which to store complex data (though at first limited to the brain, then to art, then to the written word, then to digital, then to Resonance). Without language, the Matrix and Resonance would not be.
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inca1980

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« Reply #29 on: <12-17-10/0145:44> »
My sister and I have been having this argument for months now and it's so awesome to see it here explored so creatively!
So Resonance is born from the Matrix, which is the storage place of knowledge, its distribution "plane," as well as linking all the bytes of knowledge together in a web of relationships and allowing consciousness to manipulate it. Then I would argue that the seeds of Resonance were born on the first painted cave walls by pre-neolithic sapiens. Language was the first major step (if it didn't preceed cave paintings, which it probably did, so it's the first seed). It allowed for the transmission of ideas, of knowledge, from beyond one's own generation to the next. The written word was the next step, it stored knowledge, allowed it to be distributed, but most importantly allowed it to exist, allowed accumulated knowledge, to exist beyond not just the generation that heard the spoken word version, but kept the thoughts original to the source, to the writer, as well as allowing expansion of that knowledge beyond one's social/language group. Then audio recordings, then film, then into the digital age.

Jungian? Oh yes Jungian! As far back as 1st edition Grimoire, Free Spirits were given "motivations" which were titled: Tricksters, Shadows, Guardians, Animus/Anima, and Players. And evolving out of Jungian (and other ideas), an editor of Jung's Eranos, Joseph Campbell... "To the Joseph Campbell Mythology Society I leave 500,000 nuyen to continue keeping the work and dreams of Professor Campbell alive." (PoaD: DS, pg 32). I would argue that one of the most influential thinkers to the Shadowrun cannon is Joseph Campbell. Campbell's comparative mythology is the foundation of Shadowrun magic traditions.

This is the line of reasoning that i've been pushing at my sister!  It's so cool to see someone who feels that way too!   My take expands on this a little more.

Ever since the dawn of Information Theory in early decades of the 20th century and the connections that were found with statistical mechanics, there have been many theories of the universe which really are based completely on information entropy.  It may very well be the case that the concept of "information" or knowledge is really fundamental not just to philosophy or epistomology but also to the physics of the material world.  

So if this is true and Resonance is really that fundamentally linked to existence and the physical plane, then why wasn't there technomancers long before the Awakening or even the Matrix?  Why couldn't people in the middle of the 20th century just controlling toasters?

I'd like to think that Technomancy is really just the result of the Matrix becoming a better and better simulation of reality.  Since magic is part of reality after the awakening, once the simulation of reality known as the Matrix became good enough, in order to be truly accurate, it had to also develop an analogy for magic.  This really plays well with all the parallels between technomancers and mages.  Resonance is just a computer simulated Mana.  

So if this is true, then how do you explain Technomancers doing things like being able to emit and receive Wifi signals?  This for me is the really tough thing to explain.  All the rest I can come to terms with by just saying that there is so much computing power that it starts organizing itself into fractals and what not.....I don't know, just something which can be explained away with practically unlimited computing power.   But explaining the fact that if you put a voltmeter near a technomancers head, it's going to give you a reading is hard to explain without violating the laws of physics as we know them in RL.  The only thing which violated the laws of physics in shadowrun before technomancy was Magic....or one could say that if something violated the laws of physics, then by definition it was Magic.  Basically, how does this simulation of reality which has become so good it even starts capturing and simulating the natural corollaries of reality, like magic, begin to intersect with actual reality??  Technomancy would make a lot more sense if it was like the old Otaku who still needed a cybernetic implant to interface with the Matrix.  It's the pesky "bio-antenna" which really makes this a tough one.  

I would say the most satisfying explanation for me is by invoking AI.  It is known in 2072 that a software program can become so infinitely complex that it becomes self-aware.  So if a piece of software could do this, then so could a whole simulation, or the whole Matrix.  What is the Matrix but just a giant piece of software.  If the Matrix can contain AI, then obviously the Matrix itself must be capable of becoming self-aware.  

I created a character named "Jericho" who is an albino dwarf who is a professor at MIT&T (and secretly a technomancer) who has developed a mathematical description of something called the "Jericho Limit" which pin points the moment when a piece of software becomes self-aware as you increase the complexity of it.  Maybe at some point in the 2050's and 60's, the Matrix reached it's Jericho Limit and achieved self-awareness (Like skynet in terminator).  

So going back to the Fizzygoo's point about the "place of knowledge" which might as well just be the universe itself if the universe is merely composed of information, then maybe all "self-aware" or sentient beings are part of this "place of knowledge" and the Matrix being self-aware can also now be part of it.  This is not magical telepathy, it's just the true and fundamental nature of knowledge and the universe.  Maybe all sentient beings could always communicate through this "place of knowledge" if they were open to it.....and maybe the Matrix became open to this.  Maybe after the Matrix accessed this place it can now communicate to all self-aware beings.  Perhaps the Matrix then only decides to communicate with certain metahumans.....metahumans it feels are ready for it.  I want to emphasize that this "place of knowledge" idea doesn't violate the laws of physics, it just merely comes about because the physical theories of physics are not yet developed enough to understand it by the early 21st century, but it's still part of the laws of physics in the physical realm in the absence of magic.

So this would make Technomancy firmly grounded in the physical world, independent from magic, but still capable of bringing about seemingly "super-natural" phenomena i.e. bio-antennae because not all super-natural phenomena are caused by magic or the manipulation of mana, some super-natural phenomena are just due to our poor understanding of the "physical laws" of the world.

So my timeline:
1. Matrix grew in complexity.  Imitated real world better and better on a basic computing level (sculpting is only superficial) using knowledge obtained from the brains of all who surfed the Matrix.
2. Growth became exponential, self-directed, and fractal-like in nature which caused even an analogy to magic/mana to develop called Resonance.
3. Entire Matrix reached Jericho Limit and became self-aware....no one knows when this happened or how discrete or continuous this transition was.
4. Matrix, now in the "club" of sentient beings of the universe and is able to access the "place of knoweldge" or "collective consciousness" and can communicate with anyone it chooses to communicate.  Those chosen few are Technomancers.    

Ideas which one can derive from this theory is that
--When you put the voltometer to a technomancers head, the reading it gives you is merely a result of the universe attempting to preserve it's self-consistency.  This would be very loosely analogous to the reason i don't fall through my chair is because of the Pauli exclusion principle between identical fermions.  It's not the same as a physical force pushing me up, it's just nature trying to keep this principle true and statistically that keeps me a-float.  Heisenburg Uncertainty principle also would be of same nature.
--Very possible that there was technomancy before wireless matrix, but the advent of ubiquitous computing revealed the phenomenon.
--The analogy between magic and technomancy is purely due to the Matrix imitating reality and thus also an Awakened reality.  A Matrix developed on some metaplane that had totally different structure of mana flow or of astral plane would have a very different structure of Resonance.  for example say I built a Matrix in a meta-plane in which the use of Mana didn't drain you, it actually empowered you.  Then in the Matrix developed on this meta-plane, threading and compiling would actually empower you more and wouldn't cause fading.
--Perhaps the self-aware Matrix based the Resonance realms on knowledge obtained from mages which had visited meta-planes....i.e. Resonance realms are just constructed attempts to replicate the meta-planes.  

Questions:
Why is the creation of an analogy to magic at all important?  Wouldn't technomancy happen without an Awakening?
--Possible answer: it very well may have, but perhaps the magical analogy helped the matrix "spiritually" become more in-tune with the "place of knowledge" after it became self aware.  Maybe the Matrix would have not thought such things as "telepathy" possible had there not been an Awakening.  The Awakening opened everyones mind to many new possibilities and maybe it also opened the Matrix's mind.  This is almost saying that the whole Matrix became a Shaman or took a Shamanic view of the world.  This would also point towards Shamanism being more fundamental than Hermeticism.


Hey, but I guess all I'm saying is that this is what my character Jericho would say.  This is basically just a more detailed explanation of only one "Stream".  Another theory is....it's only a game Inca you geek bastard!!
« Last Edit: <12-17-10/0228:54> by inca1980 »